Author Topic: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?  (Read 997 times)

Rich D.

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Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« on: February 14, 2020, 17:07:24 »
Hello all,

I have been searching several forums for an answer to what might be a simple question for the experts here.

What was the typical red paint color used on CSX2000-series Cobras? Was this a Ford color? An AC Ace color before the Cobra?

Is it Ruby Red? Paintref.com suggests that Autocolor 6192M Ruby Red was metallic. Non-metallic 6192 by itself maps to Aston Martin Fiesta Red. Or was Rangoon Red used before the CSX3000 cars?

These cars all seem to more or less match in my eye:

CSX 2034


CSX 2047


CSX 2121


CSX 2197


CSX 2384


CSX 2442


Any info on the paint color name and paint code would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

rr64

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2020, 20:50:21 »
Digtial pictures tend to look different on every different machine screen.

If you like those shades, take your pick as all have been custom repainted since leaving Thames Ditton.

In the case of Ford "Rangoon Red" it has more orange appearance to it than what AC Cars applied.

AC Cars colors, Shelby American colors, the body shop that Shelby American contracted with at times, and FoMoCo USA colors were all different. Many Cobras ended up being completely refinished between the time they left AC and some buyer drove off with their new prize.  For original red cars Ford Rangoon Red seems to have been a common choice for recoating before or after retail sale. That said, every brand that mixed their version of Ford's Rangoon Red came up with a different shade. That is still true today when several "rangoon red" cars park beside each other and every one is a little to a lot different that the others.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 20:55:48 by rr64 »

B.P.Bird

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 14:08:09 »
Dan has summed up the minefield of colour research for A.C.s, or any other old car for that matter. I have had some success by starting off with the BSI colours. Of course the same British Standard colour was given many different names by the companies which used them. If you search for the BSI charts you will find the Standards numbers, but several different names may be mentioned. Most cars from Thames Ditton in this period used Valentines' paint and very sadly it seems their paint records have been lost so that even with a complete Valentines' formulation it is not readily reproduced. However many of these colours were BSI compliant so you can at least get a starting point. Using colour chip samples from manufacturers is not much better than colours on the computer screen, but if you think you are close then order a paint sample and spray it on a curved piece of scrap aluminium. You can then have a reasonable idea of the colour. Bear in mind that modern water based paints are very shiny compared to original cellulose. If you choose modern paint, which is much more robust than cellulose, then a dulling down agent can be used.
So far as the specific query is concerned when A.C. offered a paint called 'Ruby Red' it was slightly metallic. In general, having had a quick look at the BSI charts, you might try the BSI 4800 standard:

04-E-56 Cardinal
04-E-55 Red
04-E-53 Cardinal Poppy

As I said ignore the names.
Finally one last difficulty - modern paints can be 'read' by a clever machine that allows paint shops to identify the colour. These do not work for cellulose so you are back to the Mk. I Eyeball
Barrie

rr64

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 16:21:14 »
Is it original exterior coachwork paint?


In part because of influential owners "original paint" on Cobras and 427 Cobras has morphed to often mean what paint was on the car when the first buyer took possession and or the first owner had done. In the past few years several high profile "original paint" red cars were actually somebody's repaints; even CSX2034 was repainted by Tasca Ford after the abuse it received as a magazine test subject.


So far no “original” paint car I have been asked to express an opinion on from a potential buyer has had exterior paint AC Cars applied new.


There are multiple "original Cobra paint" schools of thought including but not limited to:


Original = what AC Cars applied if they painted the car, not every car sent to the USA was painted


Original = what Hugus, Tasca, FAV, Moon, Alan Mann, or Shelby shops either repaired partially or completely covered over (includes cars repainted to change color on purpose). Great example: CSX2345 was painted and repaired and repainted several times. The last time by Alan Mann racing in a dark sold blue. The car is hailed as an ‘original paint’ car in the modern era.


Original = what selling dealers repaired or completely covered over (which was very common) as warrantee claims or on their own


Original = what the first buyer wanted done before they accepted delivery


Original = what the first buyer wanted done immediately after delivery


or who knows what else. “Original paint” claims are almost as bad as "original engine" claims.



Last but not least. There are a scattered few trying for forge (as in forgery) original paint.  My favorite example:  An “original paint” 427 Cobra on display. The owner was at one end of the car telling anybody that would listen how untouched the car was and what miracle it was to get an original paint 427 Cobra. At the other end of the car was his painter telling anybody that would listen (including me) how much trouble it was to repair and completely repaint the car to make it look like AC Cars did it. This was not a recent event but one four decades ago!

Flyinghorse

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2020, 09:24:00 »
im not an expert like previous posters but , you don’t say what the purpose of knowing the colour is, and as Barrie points out not straightforward, and Dan re what’s original.

If you have a  csx2000  series car there will be some where the “original” paintwork  hidden away and/ or the paperwork ( factory / import) trail would detail the first colour applied over the alloy bodywork.
I would find that and match it.

If it’s because you like the colour and it’s for a different application I would take Barrie’s approach.

Graham
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 09:26:38 by Flyinghorse »

swiftruss

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2020, 10:14:05 »
CS2030 which was possibly the same colour. This picture was taken in 1965 but, as previous posts have suggested, who knows if it hadn't already had a respray by then.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 10:54:03 by swiftruss »

Rich D.

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2020, 04:18:12 »
This is great information, thanks to those who replied. Typing now, I think I would have constructed my question a bit differently, and would have picked a better sample set of images.

Anyway, I have a Kirkham 427 that I'm about to sell. I'm interested in building a replica 289 Cobra next. While researching, I've become a bit fascinated by the earlier cars, and which colors they might have been painted, where they might have been painted, etc.

Thank you B.P.Bird for the specifics about the BSI color codes, and rr64 I appreciate your illustration of the many variables in that era which cloud the definition of an "original" color on these cars.

So if narrowed down to two general scenarios:

Worker at AC Cars in 1962: "We're going to paint this one red."

AC4  Ruby Red  6192M
AC7  Sunset Red  FG40
AC8  Cherry Red/Rosso Chiaro  FG39
Maybe a '50s Ace color?
Maybe a British standard red, possibly shared color with other car makers?

Worker at US dealership in 1962: "We're going to paint this one red." My guesses:

M1515 1962 Ford Rangoon Red
M1232 1961 Ford Monte Carlo Red (there would still be cars on the dealer lot in this color in 11/1962)
M0175 1959 Ford Torch Red
M0530 Ford Fleet Red
Or whichever GM color the customer liked

CSX 2034 was auctioned as "unrestored", but was also "sent to Tasca for completion", so who knows? I do like this color though.









rr64

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Re: Which AC/Ford Red paint color is this?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2020, 16:03:08 »
CSX 2034 was auctioned as "unrestored", but was also "sent to Tasca for completion", so who knows? I do like this color though.

'Unrestored' and 'original' or 'all original' are not equal terms. One can take a new vehicle, use it any way, and modify it in any way including refinishing and is just unrestored.    Unrestored does not mean exactly as made day one.

Years ago, while CSX2034 was still covered in considerable dust after being parked indoors since the 1960s, red color over spray on parts that would not have been on the chassis at the time at the time AC Cars originally (first time) painted the coachwork in color gave clear evidence of rework end to end. Red body color in locations not normal for AC Cars to paint also raised the question of first paint or not.  The lack of any significant stone chipping of paint on the leading edges of the rear wheel arches also didn’t fit the condition of the rest of the car.