MA 200 - AC 428 Prototype

[Peterw11]

Cass:
   
   Good questions all.  How Hurlock got together with Frua was probably a natural progression, given the trend of British manufacturers to ally themselves with Italian designers in the early '60's.  Triumph teamed with Michelotti for the TR4, Spitfire, 2000 Sedan, and others, and with Vignale for the Italia.  Gordon-Keeble (the few that were produced) was a Bertone design, Aston Martin had Touring do their DB4 and 5, and Zagato did their DB4 Zagato.
   
   There was a lot of that going on, and maybe AC just went with the trend.  Unfortunately for AC, the convoluted and more sophisticated manufacturing processes, (body stamped and assembled in Italy, then shipped back to Thames Ditton for the trimming and fitting), probably pushed the finished costs beyond what they were aiming for.  All of a sudden they were in Ferrari territory, price wise.
   
   Before the 428, the E-type, Corvette, and Cobra all sold at roughly the same $6000US price point.  Had AC been able to sell the 428 in that price range, they probably would have moved thousands of them.  Of course, AC was a tiny company compared to Jaguar or GM, so, even if they could streamline the assembly process, the economies of scale would have prevented it.
   
   As to the value of 428's on the classic car market, it doesn't appear to me that they seem to suffer that much relative to their direct competition, aside from Ferrari.  Maserati, Bizzarini, Iso, Jensen, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all seem to hover around the same price range.  Only Ferrari is worth more, model for model.
   
   Why? Because nothing else in the world is Ferrari, with the competition history, glittering clientele, reputation, etc. Plus Ferrari has that V12 engine.
   
   The 428 may be a better car in many ways, and a lot rarer as well, but if you put a Ferrari emblem on it, it's value would triple overnight.
   
   Only dedicated car nuts know who the Hurlock brothers were, or the Orsi Brothers, or David Brown, or even Ferruchio Lamborghini.  Everyone knows who Enzo Ferrari was.
   
   Re:the Daimler prototype.  A brief online search didn't turn up any pictures of it.  I do remember an article in either Classic and Sportscar or T&CC (my Britbooks, as I call them).  If I can find the article, I'll scan it and try to post a picture on this forum.  Of course, if Mark posts a pic of MA200's rear end, we can moot the point, entirely.
   
   Got any more pictures, Mark?

[Guest]

Posted by administrator 18 October 2007 :  08:13:09
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
   "Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post"
   
   
   
   LMAO !

[Peterw11]

Cass and All:
   
   Mark posted some additional pics on his Photobucket site (thanks, Mark!).  At last I know what the rest of MA200 looks like.  Not quite what I expected, but close. It looks like they stayed with a more traditional 50's look when the rest of the competition was going chopped off, Kamm style rear treatment.  Reminds me a bit of the DB5, as I first guessed, with a bit of Maserati 3500GT thrown in.
   
   Of course this was the prototype, so everything was subject to change, and indeed, it eventually did.
   
   Very handsome though, I like it...a lot.  Now about the interior...
   
   By the way, I forgot about the RHD.  That ought to make driving a bit interesting, stateside, no?

[Classicus]

quote:"Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post"
   
   LMAO !

   Hmmmm....

[msgsobe]

here's a pic with the man himself!!
   

[nikbj68]

quote:Originally posted by msgsobe
   
here's a pic with the man himself!!

   
   Doesn`t look anything like Carroll Shelby!
   [)][)][)][)][)]

[TLegate]

I hate to say this Nik but you're on the wrong forum - it's a little tricky, I know...but keep out of Thames Ditton.

[Classicus]

WOW ! You've made my day Mark ! You can almost feel Derek's pride it's so obvious.... And another GREAT pic for the collection !!!!!!
   
   Thanks a miljun !
   [8D][:p][8D][:p]

[msgsobe]

Anyone want to venture what factory color that is.  1962/63.  trevor help!

[Peterw11]

Whatever the original color is, it's better than the color shown in the recent T&CC article, or this ad in their Nov '97 issue when it came up for auction.  I'm guessing it was this color when you found it, Mark.
   
   (First try at posting a picture...hope it works)
   
   

[msgsobe]

yep, that was the color when I got it!  Couldn't wait to bring it to bare aluminum.

[Classicus]

quote:As to the value of 428's on the classic car market, it doesn't appear to me that they seem to suffer that much relative to their direct competition, aside from Ferrari. Maserati, Bizzarini, Iso, Jensen, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all seem to hover around the same price range. Only Ferrari is worth more, model for model.

   Hi Peter
   
   Obviously every classic car fan has their particular favourite make and model be it Cobra, Ferrari, Lambos across to Minis etc. and market values obviously try to reflect this. However with regard to the existing market values of the AC 428 which currently vary between roughly £40k - £70k, there are perhaps two lesser known additional facts and subsequent problems that I believe ought to be clearly highlighted beforehand when seen in tandem with their rarity. Firstly that the 428 has the same chassis as the Cobra although 6" longer, and secondly in the past perhaps because the body was too far gone a few were converted into Cobra etc. replicas.
   
   Reference the topic "How many Frua left ?" - bottom of main Forum Page 2 - sheet 1. And the posting quoted below on the 29th January 2007 -
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=1
   

quote:"....in the current issue of C&SC, page 178, there is a remarkable comment from a dealer (Hurst Park) who has a 428 for sale. He has had five calls from people wanting to convert it into a Cobra....!"

   Referring to the Register this in all likelihood would have been either Query no. 5).(at the bottom) - Reg. No. NUJ 14, or chassis number CF 57, yet when you look at their pictures both appear to be in excellent condition.
   
   Unfortunately and in what is appearing to be a relatively new development, it would seem that now there are others out there who all of a sudden are very keen indeed to buy 428s and convert them into Cobra replicas as well. Most astonishingly almost regardless of condition, probably because they are well aware there are a lot of buyers out there interested in having one. Perhaps they think a brand new Cobra replica with an original AC chassis is somehow important, though what exactly is so special or what advantage or difference a 35 year old plus chassis has over a new one, especially in conjunction with today's road safety rules I cannot even begin to imagine; though obviously I accept having always been hopeless in all things mechanical doesn't exactly help.
   
   As to the costs of building such strange conversions I've no idea either.
   
   However when one next considers the example of Query no. 21). near the bottom of the Register....
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=548&whichpage=1
   
   ....where a former 428 chassis with a Cobra replica body is or was (?) recently advertised for sale in Germany at the astonishing figure of nearly 200,000 Euros or almost £140k it would appear, short of any other logical explanations, that yet again it is the 428 chassis that is worth such money whilst the rest of the body is presumably….what ? Worthless ? Taken all round the whole subject does start to raise some very worrying thoughts indeed, especially as such work could have been carried out by anyone.
   
   Whatever the real reasons they're obviously unimportant and irrelevant, but what it does mean I believe is that in order to prevent all remaining 428s suffering a similarly ignominous fate, an immediate and thorough re-appraisal and re-evaluation of the market value of both AC 428 Frua models is now extremely urgent and vital and not left until it is too late. Ideally always seeking to maintain their value, regardless of condition, some 15% - 20% above the highest prices that all existing 428/ Cobra conversion replicas are fetching at any given time. In other words to employ whatever means are deemed necessary that will make it hopelessly uneconomical to ever consider the wanton destruction of any AC 428 Frua again. In addition, and above all, to ensure that such means help to permanently protect, maintain and cherish the few, now extremely rare, important and genuinely exclusive examples remaining of a brilliant 1960's concept and design from the house of a highly respected and long established British manufacturer.
   
   Or perhaps I should put it all a little more bluntly. Depending on condition and if I owned one I would not think of insuring or dream of selling it as of today for anything less than around £150k - £175k. Minimum. Why should I ? So that some total stranger without a shred of personal interest in the car, its history or its rarity should make an outrageous profit not only from its unnecessary and callous destruction but to add insult to injury all at my expense as well ? I'm afraid not []
   
   Anyway with the greatest respect to Ferrari emblems and history together with all other top end of the market classic and luxury cars in the world, give me an ultra rare and genuinely exclusive AC Frua 428 any day ! Oh yes musn't forget that excellent Cobra race tuned chassis as well.
   
   Cass []

[Peterw11]

Same thing was/is happening to the less valuable V12 Ferrari models, particularly the 250 and 330 2+2's.  They take the engine and drive train and build a GTO or Testa Rossa around it.  Even a replica can sell for 10 times what a 2+2 is worth on it's best day.

[nikbj68]

What would the value impact of having a new chassis on a 428 be?
   You can see where I`m going with this...the automotive equivalent of selling your own kidney...
   If the butchers are only interested in the chassis, offer `em a grand for what`s left over, get a new chassis for yourself, and you could have your own 428 on the road for £25-30k, Cass!

[Classicus]

quote:Originally posted by nikbj68
   
What would the value impact of having a new chassis on a 428 be?
   

   Hi Nik
   
   I guess you should really be addressing this question to someone in the Club not me as it's a very common classic car situation that's been around for years, so I'm sure the same problem has arisen with many earlier AC models too.
   
   However for many owners of older cars originality can often be an extremely subjective and very touchy issue, so it would largely depend on what your own goals are; or perhaps how you feel any non original items might or might not affect its resale value later on. Of course in this case a lot would hinge on the condition of the original chassis and how and if it could be restored first.
   
   For me personally originality will always count for everything bar none, so in answer to your question a huge and highly detrimental originality impact (never value - horrors !!) and one I would never ever consider except as a very last resort.
   
   Think of it all perhaps like a very old and extremely valuable oil painting painted by your great, great grandfather that's been in your family ever since, yet is now badly in need of careful restoration. How important would retaining its originality be to you then Nik ? And what would you do ?
   
   And there should be the answer to your question []