MA 200 - AC 428 Prototype

[Classicus]

Original deleted "AC Librarian" thread (text only) retrieved from Google cached file. Pics and original Google page link due soon. Hopefully !
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   Author  Topic
   msgsobe
   
   
   USA
   7 Posts
    Posted - 02 September 2007 :  07:30:48
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   Good day, all..
   I am the owner of MA 200, the 1963 one off AC v8 prototype. She is very well documented, with factory engineering drawings, factory photos, etc etc. Articles in Thorobred and Classic, the Shelby registry and Mcclellans book, AC cars. She is currently undergoing a full nut and bolt restoration, and I want to be certain I have every piece of paper on her.
   
   Where do all the old factory records currently reside? What about personal notes from Derek Hurlock regarding in house projects? Is there a club librarian?
   
   If anyone has any additional information regarding MA 200, it is greatly appreciated!
   
   Regards, Mark Gold
   
   administrator
   
   
   79 Posts
    Posted - 03 September 2007 :  08:28:58
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   Congratualtions re buying this attractive piece of AC history.
   
   The old factory records are held by AC in Malta, who can be contacted by their website (on the links page on this site).
   
   The club librarian is John Spencer: email acoclibrarian at lineupmore dot fsnet dot co dot uk
   
   Hope you are club member or if not will be joining soon!
   
   
   
   msgsobe
   
   
   USA
   7 Posts
    Posted - 03 September 2007 :  16:44:26
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   Thank you, yes I am a member, I will find a way to post some pics shortly of MA 200. mark
   
   
   nikbj68
   
   
   United Kingdom
   236 Posts
    Posted - 11 September 2007 :  19:36:49
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   quote:
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Originally posted by msgsobe
   
   Good day, all..
   I am the owner of MA 200, the 1963 one off AC v8 prototype. ...If anyone has any additional information regarding MA 200, it is greatly appreciated!
   ....I will find a way to post some pics shortly of MA 200.
   Regards, Mark Gold
   
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
   
   Hi Mark, great car! I found This auction report from 1997, but unfortunately no photos there, so for those of us who`d love to see MA 200, please look at the 5th post down in this thread!
   Best regards, Nik.
   
   
   msgsobe
   
   
   USA
   7 Posts
    Posted - 17 September 2007 :  02:08:26
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   heres a pic of MA 200, 1963, at thames Ditton!
   http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/?action=viewÃhttp://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri56.htm
   
   AC Factory's first drawing of MA 200 prototype - 1962
   
   
   
   Pietro Frua's first drawing (Dis 729) of AC 428 prototype.  Date unknown
   
   
   
   MA 200 prototype. Completed car outside AC Factory - 1963
   
   

[msgsobe]

what happened to my post???

[administrator]

Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post.

[msgsobe]

why not leave the porn post?   LOL

[cmaddox3]

quote:Originally posted by msgsobe
   
why not leave the porn post?   LOL
   

   
   I suspect it was a cut-rate porn site.  Not that I actually checked, mind you.
   
   --  Chuck

[Classicus]

Hi Mark
   
   Could you possibly do a very high resolution and then upload the AC factory's original 1962 drawing of MA 200 again, as I'd like to enlarge all of them for much closer and more detailed inspection and comparisons ? But before you do could you first flatten out the drawing to remove all the creases, plus make sure that the light source is evenly distributed over the whole sheet ?
   
   Moths and myopia seem to have got at my copy ! [:p]
   
   Thanks
   
   Cass

[DGoose]

Having followed the earlier MA200 thread(now deleted)with interest I couldn't help but notice similarities to the earlier (59-63) Greyhound, certainly round the rear quarter and the flank.
   
   The Greyhound is obviously a design from a previous decade and a larger car overal but the MA200 lineage would seem apparant.
   
   I have attached an image of a somewhat modified Greyhound for comparison.
   
   Also I believe that MA200 was origionaly designed for a V8 some time prior to the Shelby concept, is it possible that this was intended to be the Buick 3.5ltr unit(later to become rover)as AC where rumoured to be in discussion with Buick at this time whilst searching for a replacement for the discontinued Bristol unit.
   
   

[msgsobe]

MA 200 revealed...hers the chassis, body off, note the space frame chassis rather than big tubes like the ace and cobra
   

[Peterw11]

Greetings all:
   
   New board member here.  I'm neither a club member or AC owner, but have been fascinated by all things AC since the Cobra first appeared back in the '60's (ABC's Wide World of Sports coverage of the 1964 Sebring 12 hour to be precise).  I've been particularly interested in MA 200 since I saw that first picture in Road and Track back in '64. To my mind, one of the cleanest and prettiest designs ever to roll out of any manufacturing facility.
   
   As you all know, that car appeared briefly and then fell off the face of the earth.  Every now and then it would show up in a classic car mag, but, for the most part, was pretty much forgotten.  I never forgot it, however, and would occasionally go online to see if there was any news (or pictures), but never could find anything.  I figured it was either tucked away in some private collection, or perhaps even abandoned in some vacant lot.
   
   Suddenly, it appears in October 'O7 in T&CC and my interest is revived.  I posted an inquiry on their message board and a few weeks later receive a reply from Mark Gold, stating that he now owns the car and is having it restored to it's former glory. Lucky man.
   
   That encounter lead me to this site, and I've spent the last week or so catching up on my AC (particularly MA200) history via this forum.
   Fascinating stuff.  Keep in mind that this car has been my Holy Grail for nigh onto 40 years and one I would have loved to add to my otherwise rather mundane collection (A couple of MG TD's and a Datsun 280Z).
   
   Well, Mark's got it and I think that's great.  I'm so relieved to see it's still around and he's giving it the attention it deserves. I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures of it as it's restoration continues and hopefully, when completed, it'll be more in the public eye.
   
   By the way, the pictures posted on this forum are very interesting and include some I've never seen before. In fact, I've never seen what the rear of the car looks like, except for those old factory pictures posted, (while under construction so you can't tell much) and can only guess as to what it might look like.  My guess, given the short tail fins and vertical design of the taillights would be a cross between an Aston Martin DB5 and possible an MGB or Sunbeam Alpine, but that's mere speculation.
   
   I'm also playing a bit of "Guess The Supplier" as far as the detail parts go.  Given the propensity of small manufacturers to use proprietary components, I think I spot a bit of Jaguar E-type in the windscreen, door handles and front turn signals, maybe Rover or Jag in the taillights, but I could be wrong.
   
   Anyway, thought I'd say hello, and offer my two cents on this terrific automobile.
   
   Peter Whelan
   Shrewsbury, MA USA

[Classicus]

Welcome Peter ! []
   
   And a very interesting first post too. Coincidentally and as you've probably read we're currently playing "Guess The Designer" of the 428, Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ! Currently odds on Derek with MA 200 by several lengths !
   
   Cass []

[Peterw11]

Well, given the timeline, the Mistral predating the 428 by a couple of years, and the similarities between the two, I'd guess Frua did them both.
   
   There are a number of recurring themes used on both cars.  The windshields look identical, the swage line running from the headlights to the rear fender is similar, although more pronounced on the Maser, the scooped headlights, of course, the intake below the front bumper theme, oblong tail lights, etc.
   
   That said, there are also some similarities between the 428 and some of Frua's previous designs. The "power bulge" running down the center of the hood (bonnet) to the front valance is similar to the Frua's version of the Maserati 5000 GT, as is the kick up of the rear fender line. The busy detail of the 428's nose reminds me of previous Frua efforts, as well. Frua was notorious for overdressing the grille area, the Mistral probably the most conservative of any of his contemporary designs.
   
   More than likely, MA200 was the styling model that was used for both cars.  Frua adapted AC's original, rather conservative, in-house design, spiffed it up a bit, especially along the slab sided flanks, sold it to Maserati for use on the Mistral, and then made some detail changes and sold it back to AC.
   
   All three are beautiful cars and so similar in theme that there had to be a bit of comingling, whether intentional or not.

[Classicus]

Agreed all round, I sometimes think though from one or two side view angles only there's shades of an early 428 in Frua's 1962 Maserati 5000 "Aga Khan" Coupé as well.
   
   http://www.pietro-frua.de/1962_maserati.htm
   
   Personally I've been hooked on the 428 for over 30 years and all forms of motor sport heaven knows how long before that ! []
   
   However we're still trying to pin the history and details of MA 200 down far more accurately as per para C). below, so for your info I've brought together the overall general state of play and situation from one or two other websites and threads as well.
   _______________
   
   A).
   If you haven't seen it already you'll first need to check out Pietro Frua's detailed website, particularly the 428 webpages.
   
   http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac.htm
   
   Note especially his first 3 sketches for the 428 at the top - Dis 729, 730, 731. (It's Dis 729 that's the important one). Everything's in German though there is a very average (!) English translation clickable button in the top right hand corner.
   
   B).
   Next see the thread and relevant pics at the top of the second AC 428 main forum page labelled "AC V8 prototype or Maserati Mistrale Spyder ?".
   
   http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=0&whichpage=2
   
   C).
   Which finally brings things to the following text copied out from further up this same page, in fact Mark is currently re-scanning the 1962 first drawing of MA 200 in high resolution to enable more detailed and closer inspection. You can also click on the thread "The Gentleman's Express Club AC 428 Register" for the latest pics of MA 200's rebuild as well - after CF 80. (Incidentally if you ever get the chance to see his Photobucket album cum archive of MA 200 it's something else ! He's collected together some really excellent pics and historical facts !!)
   
   "As MA 200 (as a convertible) was apparently up and running in 1963 whilst the Mistrale Coupe was first shown in November 1963 and the Spyder introduced in the Spring of 1964, each already starting to get quite close to the outline of the 428, it's starting to make me wonder who might have thought of the final 428 design itself first ? Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ? Either way I think it's a fascinating backdrop and comparison with all 3 cars !!"
   
   1. Month ? 1962 - AC Factory. First drawing MA 200.
   
   2. Month ? 1963 - AC Factory. MA 200 Completed Car.
   
   3. Month/ date ? - MA 200 visit to Modena.
   
   4. Month/ date ? - Pietro Frua. First Drawing (Dis. 729) of the AC 428.
   
   5. November 1963 - The Maserati Mistrale Coupe originally named the 'Due Posti', was first shown in a preview at the Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile di Torino in November 1963.
   
   6. Spring 1964 - "....for delivery Maserati's anxious customers had to wait until the spring of 1964 when the Spyder version was introduced at the Salone di Ginevra."
   
   As I said I definitely think Derek and MA 200 are now well ahead by several lengths !
   
   Cass []

[Peterw11]

Good Morning, Cass,
   
   Yes, I have read all the relevent pages and viewed (and downloaded) Mark's pics.  Remember, MA200 has been a low grade obsession with me, so any info would be devoured voraciously.  I even tracked down the June '85 issue of T&CC (on Ebay UK, incidently) which I didn't have, (been a subscriber since the early '90's) and hopefully I 'll have it in hand shortly.
   
   I guess my previous post was a little unclear. I have to agree with your conclusion, that MA200 was the seed that ultimately produced both the Mistral and the 428, with some styling nuances, all of which have echos and similarities to Frua's previous designs.
   
   The AC design, while very clean and attractive, does look a bit bland compared to the other two. While the front clip is very sleek and inspiring, the design seems to lose it's drama from the doors back, given the overall slab sided look and the rather old school taillights and rear deck.  There are distinct similarities to the Greyhound along the rear wing and, as I previously opined, the taillights look like they were borrowed from the Rover P5 and the deck lid could be borrowed from a Series I Sunbeam Alpine.  Again, this is mere speculation as I've yet to see a photo of the rear end treatment.  Hopefully, Mark can post those from his archive.
   
   (If you've ever seen a picture of the prototype Daimler SP250 Series III, which Jaguar axed before it reached production, fearing it would compete with the E-type, that would be close to the MA200's rear treatment, in my opinion).
   
   Considering the price point at which all of these cars were designed to sell, perhaps Frua felt the customer should expect a little more drama and "bang for the buck" from the finished product, prompting him to add the additional detail to both cars.
   
   Could it be the marketing department had their input with styling even back then?

[Classicus]

Sounds suspiciously like you're starting to get bitten by the 428 bug as well ! []
   
   

quote:Could it be the marketing department had their input with styling even back then?

   I've always had the feeling that it was a direct consequence and therefore a logical progression on from the very stylish Ace, Aceca & Greyhound models.
   
   

quote:(If you've ever seen a picture of the prototype Daimler SP250 Series III, which Jaguar axed before it reached production, fearing it would compete with the E-type, that would be close to the MA200's rear treatment, in my opinion).

   Can't remember ever seeing this one, any pics available on the Net by any chance ?
   
   As for the 428 I'm now beginning to think that it was plain luck and sheer good fortune that both men ever met at all. It was such a big departure from all their previous models and a huge financial gamble for Derek Hurlock and the factory as a whole to even consider aiming, never mind producing, such a luxury car for the top end of the market in the first place. Especially at such a disadvantageous price too. Equally I've always felt Derek possessed a sound business mind as well as a very keen eye for design to begin with, for as I've said many times it's still the finest and most beautiful car I've ever seen. And in his shoes I think it likely that many others after so many years in the trade would probably have wanted just as much to leave their own personal contributions as well.
   
   I haven't looked at all of Frua's other work very closely but for me the 428 just has that indefinable something every time I see one. I've always liked the pungent ring of phrases such as "Forceful Aestheticism" and the like ! [:p]
   
   One way perhaps of looking at it all bearing in mind beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. For example whilst it was a very good looking car I never went overboard about the E-Type at all, though by contrast I always greatly admired the very forceful looking works Healeys with that extra hump in the boot ! (Most yummy !). Whether it was because the E-Type was so reasonably priced to begin with I don't know nevertheless they proved enormously popular and one assumes a great financial success. Yet I've always wondered what would have been its fate if it had been for sale at say two or three times its original price ? In much the same way as the 428 ? That there might have been no more than say perhaps 150 - 200 examples of the E-Type ever made and nowadays the few remaining quite possibly valued at exclusive 250 GTO prices ?
   
   So the million pound question for me has always been what if the 428 with its mere 80 cars sold, had been for sale at around the same price levels as the E-Type ? And I've always come up with the same answer that where genuinely deserved, and I emphasise where genuinely deserved, rarity when combined with any beautiful object will always easily create its own standards and set its own seals on genuine exclusivity. Every time. And it is genuine exclusivity that I believe has and always will continue to sum up the 428 to perfection.
   
   Consequently what I will never understand is why they are still so ridiculously undervalued and therefore presumably underpriced as a result ? Inexplicably leaving them permanently at the mercy of get rich quick merchants only too eager to convert them into yet another Cobra replica.
   
   All very puzzling and disheartening. Still MA 200 combining with Frua's first drawing for the 428 "Dis 719" says it all for me. [8D]
   
   Cass [] (Paul actually but as there's another Paul on here it's easier !)

[msgsobe]

Peter, glad you found us!  cass, should have yor drawings soon.  the resto is coming along great, no issues, body was in great shape, as well as the chassis.