Author Topic: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware  (Read 2072 times)

rhbeede

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« on: May 21, 2017, 22:19:54 »
Readers: As you know, there is a bracket in the middle and bottom of the windscreen frame which secures the frame to the cowl of the car.  My recollection is that the original fasteners were chromed, round headed, slotted machine screws about one inch in length.  I am asking readers to confirm or correct my recollection, as well as tell me:
   
   1. The size of the screw
   2.  What type of nut was used? Simple hexagonal, or a small aerotight nut?
   3.  Was there a washer employed? If so, was it a simple flat or lock washer?
   
   I need to source this hardware, as well as some other BSF nuts and bolts that have gotten sufficiently buggered up over the years that they are unsightly and difficult to remove.
   
   Your kind assistance would be MOST appreciated!
   
   Cheers!  Bob Beede

rr64

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2017, 22:54:04 »
What chassis range? I know what is typical in the CSX2201 and CSX2589 range.
   
   British Fasteners in the USA has some BSF pieces.
   
   GS Model Suppliers Ltd usually has some BA threaded stuff.
   LAS Aerospace Ltd
   GWR Fasteners, Ltd

rhbeede

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 17:27:15 »
Dear rr64: This would be an early worm and sector car, so more British than American. Ford generator and regulator, and Rotundra tach.
   
   Thanks for the reply!
   Bob

B.P.Bird

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 23:49:25 »
Dear Mr.Beede,
   When rebuilding CSX 2033 I used 2 BA, round head, brass, chrome plated, slotted screws, 1/2" under head. Underneath there were plain steel washers and Aerotight nuts. Just to be sure this was correct I checked with David Sanderson tonight and he confirms that this was how A.C. did it.
   Please note that no Ace or Cobra was ever fitted with a 'Worm and Sector' steering box like the Gemma 'box in a Ford Model A or a contemporaneous Citroen. The Ace and early Cobra used a 'Cam and Peg' steering box built by Bishop Cam Ltd. This is a completely different system.
   Turning to your interesting observation about early Cobras being 'more British than American' it poses the question as to how much the content of the machine changed over the three iterations ? Whilst I have never thought of this Transatlantic sports car as either British or American, but both, it does seem to me that the content and engineering did not change from beginning to end. No doubt wiser heads than mine will point something out, but I cannot immediately see any difference in content between the three main variations produced in the Thames Ditton era. All the components in the completed early car came from the same places that supplied parts for the completed later cars. Not necessarily the same parts, but the same origins. For example it may have been a small block and a Borg Warner gearbox in the early car with a big block and toploader in the late car, but the supplier was still Ford. I believe the same reasoning can be applied to any component you can mention. So far as design and engineering is concerned all three types came off the drawing board of Alan Turner and the story about Ford using a computer to design the coil spring chassis should be viewed with caution. Alan Turner was quite amusing about this and he told how some computer generated theoretical suspension arcs came across from Dearborn when they had started using a design computer. Alan Turner laid these out only to find that the trailing links had to be positioned around about the occupants kidneys. Very much a case of back to the drawing board.
   With apologies for drifting off your subject, but I thought you raised an interesting point. Perhaps it is worth a new topic ?

A-Snake

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2017, 20:08:31 »
quote:
Originally posted by B.P.Bird
   
All the components in the completed early car came from the same places that supplied parts for the completed later cars. Not necessarily the same parts, but the same origins.
   
   

   
   Ok, I'll bite ;) Are you saying that the change from Smith to Stewart Warner was simply a change from AC supplying gauges to Ford supplying gauges?

B.P.Bird

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2017, 23:00:23 »
Well no, I am simply saying that the dials on early cars could be Smiths or Stewart Warner and the dials on later cars could be Stewart Warner or Smiths. The point being that the proportion of components from various sources did not shew an evolution from start to finish. Unfortunately many authors have played the nationalist card and claimed that one side or other supplied proportionately more as time passed. I just do not see that evidence. To claim that the early cars were more British than American implies that later cars were more American than British: Both propositions seem unreasonable to me.

A-Snake

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Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2017, 00:43:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by B.P.Bird
   
Well no, I am simply saying that the dials on early cars could be Smiths or Stewart Warner and the dials on later cars could be Stewart Warner or Smiths. The point being that the proportion of components from various sources did not shew an evolution from start to finish. Unfortunately many authors have played the nationalist card and claimed that one side or other supplied proportionately more as time passed. I just do not see that evidence. To claim that the early cars were more British than American implies that later cars were more American than British: Both propositions seem unreasonable to me.
   

   I'll agree with that.[:)]

rhbeede

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Re: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2019, 18:13:31 »
Dear B.P. Bird;  Thank you for the effort made in your reply in 2017.  I just saw it, and found it valuable.  I also read with great interest your comments about Mr. Turner and the coil spring suspension design. Have his comments been recorded in a book one might buy?  I have access to lots of “American viewpoint” books on AC Cars and the Cobra, but few from England. I’m embarrassed to say that the American’s are seemingly excessively prideful about their role in creating the Cobra.  Carroll Shelby had a way of consuming all the air in the room when it came to its creation. As far as the parts changing on early versus later cars, I will definitely agree that The Hurlocks used the same Vendors over their AC Cobra building career.  However, such was NOT the case once the cars arrived at Shelby American. My experience is that every car is a bit different. Parts were sourced from several vendors, especially fasteners. Buddy Bar Casting was pretty faithful in providing value covers and manifolds, but Shelby bought parts from lots of folks.  The use of Stewart Warner gauges has been told us Cobra guys as an outcome of Shelby’s opinion that Smith gauges were unreliable. Thus, around CSX 2200, they changed to SW, adding the Rack and Pinion steering, changed out the steering column, and used a early Ford Fairland wiring harness to replace the Lucas system. This made the car more serviceable by Ford dealerships in the States, and eliminated many of the demons found in the Lucas system. Those of us following Cobras and serial numbers find all sorts of oddities in the equipment that owners swear is original. It’s hard to say exactly what happened at this point, but many of us in the US accept the fact that every Cobra is a little different from the others.  Thank you for your post!  Bob Beede

rr64

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Re: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2019, 17:12:28 »
"My experience is that every car is a bit different."
I am not Mr. Bird, but Dan’s perspective:  Between CSX2001 and CSX2200 somebody (AC, Hugus, Shelby, Ford) initiated many  requests for some kind of change in designs and parts. AC completed some cars, Hugus completed some cars, and the balance by one of the shops Mr. Shelby was associated with between Dean Moon place and the LAX facility. Different shops, different teams of people, different general hardware supplies, different specification sets, and yes there were many changes in what landed at dealerships.  Think of groups of specifications for many subsystems being put into play with many over laps  Yes this week’s final product could be very different than last week’s product. It did not help consistency that none of the shops involved used first in first out inventory control.  It did not help consistency that Shelby’s works normally ordered 100 each of most parts and often each new lot had some revision of another.   Some revisions were driven by changes suppliers made to their products independent of anything the final assembly shops did and that includes small changes even suppliers like Lucas® made.  I have worked on a list for years of changes that have been documented. The current list covering the CSX2001 through CSX2100 cars is three plus pages long.  In contrast the cars in the last contract CSX2501-CSX2589 I have just four specification changes listed and two of them are what exact engine assemblies Shelby obtained from Ford.

"Parts were sourced from several vendors, especially fasteners."
Dan:  See above, multiple shops with their own general hardware preferences and supply chains.

"Buddy Bar Casting was pretty faithful in providing value covers and manifolds, but Shelby bought parts from lots of folks." 
Dan: See above, batch to batch specification changes. Buddy Barksdale’s company supplied five different versions of aluminum ‘COBRA POWERED BY FORD’ rocker arm covers in 1963 alone.  Designs were changed for some reason often.  There were two different versions of ‘COBRA’ safety clutch bell housing during 1963 alone. I could make a very long list. There are patterns though.  You might find a part released in March 1963 in any Cobra finished thereafter but not late August 1964 item in a car sold to its original buyer in July 1964.

"The use of Stewart Warner gauges has been told us Cobra guys as an outcome of Shelby’s opinion that Smith gauges were unreliable. Thus, around CSX 2200, they changed to SW, adding the Rack and Pinion steering, changed out the steering column, and used a early Ford Fairland wiring harness to replace the Lucas system. This made the car more serviceable by Ford dealerships in the States, and eliminated many of the demons found in the Lucas system."
Dan: Many changes in chassis and finished cars CSX2201 and later were initated by Ford Motor Company. Ford became Mr. Shelby’s boss at CSX2008. (The original and revised contract in 1962 is very educational.) Ford tested CSX2004 and started using CSX2008 to test things like a Ford electrical charging system before converting it into a concept car.  CSX2126 finished before CSX2080 was a test car for most of the changes that got implemented at CSX2201, including the new Ford-McCord cooling system components, Ford American style wire looms (There is nothing Fairlane about Cobra wire looms. Said another way, no amount of modification of a Fairlane's electrical system will come up with a Cobra unique system.), and Stewart-Warner (SW) instruments.  The SW tachometer sender, tachometer, tachometer wire loom, and temperature sensors were all unique to CSX2201 and later Cobras under Ford Motor Company drawings and specifications.  I will stop there as my electrical system list for CSX2201 and later street cars is 33 pages long.  Many of the parts started off as a Ford drawing or specification. Most were made in the USA by Ford top tier suppliers.  We have found Ford components made in America dated in the summer of 1962 installed by AC in chassis CSX2201 and later. Ford worked on electrical components for a long time, it just did not happen by accident.

"at this point, but many of us in the US accept the fact that every Cobra is a little different from the others."
Dan: They certainly are but almost entirely due to owners, especially after CSX2201. I very large factor driving changes is buyer morphing the car the bought into the one they wish they had.  We interviewed a fellow at one convention that was planning to change his super original unrestored late CSX21xx car into a replica of a CSXsomething car Mr. Shelby had on display at the event. He took his car to the event specifically to see what all he had to change to make his very nice car mimic a replica fitted with many modern updates. He was planning on cutting out the welded in side vents his car came with and installing fastener fixed replicar ones that would make repainting the car easier. Ouch!

One of the things I do is help current owners come up with educated guesses as to how their car might have been day one no matter what it is like currently. I have many subject specific files, windscreen frames is not one of them.  Between pictures of mostly unrestored low mile cars and parts plus data files I have collected around 15,000 files.  I have data I have collected since circa 1971 as to why is this Cobra different from that one.   Yes it was confusing back then as CSX2144 and CSX2465 were parked about a mile apart and they were very different in components. I learned why over time. To have any idea how a new Cobra might have been day one is you have to know when AC Cars finished the rolling chassis, which shop and in some case which employee set finished the chassis into a running car, when by date was the chassis was completed, what type of engine was installed, and the serial number of that engine, and what was ordered for that chassis.  In some cases you need information from the AC chassis ledger.  Factory pictures help as do some of the new car road test pictures and text.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 14:45:33 by rr64 »

rhbeede

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Re: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2019, 22:38:00 »
Dear rr64: The only "Dan" I'm familiar with in the Cobra world with the passion for this level of detail is Dan Case. Might that be you? Thank you for taking so much of your valuable time to share your research! I was very interested in the amazing effort you have expended in documenting the changes in parts over the Cobra construction period. Is that something you are willing to share with people like myself, who share your passion for details? If not, are you willing to entertain specific questions about observed changes in parts and their placement between cars? My CSX 2073 is essentially identical in parts and location to CSX2124, whose second owner was a high school friend of mine, and thus I spent many hours under, over, and around this car.  These two cars were invoiced to Ford dealers 10 weeks apart (2073: 5/17/63, 2124: 7/31/63). It took Leonard Parsons over four months to complete 2073; it was invoiced to Shelby 1/9/63. 2124 was completed in just five weeks (invoiced to SAI 6/21/63). Perhaps the delay in completing 2073 was the same as for  CSX 2044, which was invoiced to SAI 11/6/62, but not delivered to Professor Horn until 5/21/63, four days after 2073; both Hayward Ford and Dr. Horn wanted only 289 powered Cobras. Careful examination of these three cars billed to Shelby over a seven month period in the early production era suggests that they all had Ford generators, Ford regulators, and Harrison radiators. The DB10 relay box is also mounted on the left inner fender panel. 2073 and 2124 have Rotunda tachs, and the voltage regulator is mounted on the firewall above the driver's footbox. 2044 has a Smith Tach, but it's Ford regulator is mounted on the Passenger inner fender panel facing the battery; a BAD place for an electrical relay, given the acid fumes emitted from the old cap batteries! CSX 2034 has a LUCAS regulator mounted on the firewall next to the Lucas fuse box. Unlike 2073 and 2124, which have cream colored footboxes, 2034 and 2044 have black ones. At some point, AC switched to WHITE footboxes. They also made some cars with mechanical tachs driven off the back of the generator. Did they ever drive them off the distributor housing from SAI? SO......can you help me sort out when all these little changes took place relative to the chassis numbers? This would be a dream come true for me! Thanks in advance for considering this difficult request!! Bob


rr64

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Re: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 16:41:39 »
Bob,
You figured it out, rr64 = Dan Case with CSX2310 and CSX2551. Decades ago when I first engaged in anything on the public version of the Internet I used something simple and easy to sign in various sites that required registration.

You have covered the biggest factors in how Cobras were finished. I will list them for other readers for clarity. To have any idea how any particular Cobra (for this commentary COB and COX chassis are not covered) might have been completed you have to know these as a minimum:
1)   Who completed the car?
a.   AC Cars
b.   Continental Cars
c.   Shelby with Dean Moon’s employees
d.   Holman-Moody
e.   Shelby Venice
f.   Shelby LAX

2)   What specification(s) set and or revision(s) the chassis were ordered under? (Example: There was not “a” main chassis drawing but a series of them to cover features that changed.)

3)   What drive train the car was completed with?
a.   XHP-260
b.   HP260
c.   260 2V (1 car)
d.   1963 model year Fairlane HP289
e.   1964 model year Fairlane HP289
f.   1964-65 Cobra only HP289 (only 48 engines made and 42 put into new Cobras as far as we know)
g.   1965 model year Fairlane HP289 specifically made for use with the application specific High Performance C4 automatic transmission (15 cars)
h.   Iron case Galaxie B-W T-10 transmission
i.   At least two different gear sets in aluminum cased B-W T-10 transmissions

4)   When was the car completed and what were the typical final assembly practices of the time.

5)   Were special features requested or installed by anybody for any reason.
a.   Engineering specials for AC Cars
b.   Engineering specials for Shelby
c.   Engineering specials by Ford engineers
d.   Custom orders by original buyer

6)   Design changes in subassemblies for any reason
a.   AC Cars
b.   Shelby
c.   Continental
d.   Ford
e.   Buddy Barksdale
f.   Essex Wire
g.   Cyclone
h.   Halibrand
i.   Dunlop
j.   Goodyear
k.   So on and so forth


I have been around repairing, restoring, and modify old cars since 1961.  As a class it is my opinion that the subject of how Cobras were finished is the most complicated subject there was for new cars. I also believe that as a class they are the most modified type of car ever. I have examined maybe a third of them at one time in some way or another and most have dozens to hundreds of changes from their first day with an original owner.  By 1971 I started seeing a trend of second owners morphing the Cobra they managed to buy into the one they wish they had, a process that still continues. 


Correct, you cannot use a chassis number alone to have any idea what engine it had in it the day the original owner bought the car. Some people have come up with photo copies of documents from AC, Hugus, or Shelby itemizing a particular engine for their car. Some cars received some type 260 engine and then a HP289 replacement before retail sale.


Over the years I have made a list of easier to detect changes in finished cars. It is a work in progress and I don’t have solid evidence of particular chassis numbers in many cases. That list is 15 pages long. I cannot promise to come up with a typical answer for any question for cars prior to CSX2201 but I will share whatever I do have you might ask. Sometimes, even if I don’t have an answer I might have a clue that might suggest where to hunt for information.  (CSX2001 through CSX2188 consisted of a series of significant changes made by every company and team involved.  Nearly complete standardization in CSX2xxx cars did not happen until the contract for chassis starting at CSX2201 where all the changes that evolved in all the groups came together to be repeated  over and over until the planned changes in the CSX24xx range.)


Most technical questions are easiest to answer via email, especially if pictures or data files or drawings are included. rollright64@aol.com


ALF

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Re: Help verifying original AC windscreen hardware
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2019, 07:45:50 »
Hi Dan
I found this topic today and I would like to thank you for the very interesting information you provided.
Cheers
ALF