AC Mk11 Classic - available March 2014

[B.P.Bird]

Emmanuel, Rob ought to know - he was a highly qualified RNZAF engineer in a former life. If he cannot get through the certification hoops no one will. Incidentally I take it that the Mk. VI is not using the original Ace/Cobra Wilmot Breeden locks ? If they are still being used then they would have some sort of certification wouldn't they ?

[Spantik]

Thanks Barrie for the clarification.
   
   Actually this confirm that administration and common sense are living in two different worlds (or universes, perhaps).
   So far I remember, Rob has purchased a Mk II, but newly produced. Anyway the MkVI is also newly produced and will most probably follow the same harduous homologation path, but on German cobbled TÜV regulations.

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Spantik
   
Thanks Barrie for the clarification.
   
   Actually this confirm that administration and common sense are living in two different worlds (or universes, perhaps).
   So far I remember, Rob has purchased a Mk II, but newly produced. Anyway the MkVI is also newly produced and will most probably follow the same harduous homologation path, but on German cobbled TÜV regulations.
   

   Assuming it ever gets delivered. []

[B.P.Bird]

What a supine bunch we all are around the world - decades of special building without regulation; except that we were responsible for complying with the applicable law - for example 'Construction and Use' in the U.K., but I think there was similar legislation in most jurisdictions. If you broke the law then there were sanctions. Were there ever significant, or indeed any, mechanical failure related accidents under this system ? I never heard of one. However in this age of bureaucracy and interfering do gooders simply mention 'Ealth and Safety' and we seem to act like a Cobra being mesmerised by a Mongoose. Why do we put up with this huge growth industry around the world, employing large numbers of probably quite clever people, to prevent successful innovation ? Transfer them to productive employment and allow us to be individuals responsible for our own actions within the law.
   Getting off the thread I know, but it is a good story: Many years ago the British Army disposed of a number of Ferret scout cars - small four wheel drive armoured reconnaissance vehicles. An acquaintance of mine bought one and stripped off some of the heavier armour and replaced it with lightweight sheetmetal. He then fitted a 6.5 litre Chevrolet V8 in place of a more pedestrian Army issue Daimler straight six. The final modification was a paint job in purple metalflake (it was, in his defence, the early seventies.) Once sorted he proceeded to use The Ferret as his daily commuter in London. You may imagine how much pleasure he gave to hundreds of fellow commuters, every day, as he trundled along amongst cars, taxis and buses. I doubt it would be possible to do this today and we are the poorer for it.
   In exactly the same way small companies like A.C. face an impossible regulatory mountain to climb. The cost of individual approvals makes any sale uneconomic. It is only the few persistent and brave souls like Rob and Emmanuel who have the metal to take on the system. If your total sales of A.C.s might, at most, be measured in hundreds then getting type approvals around the World is impossible to finance on any commercial basis. So having strangled these small innovative companies have we achieved any detectable improvement in road safety ?

[rstainer]

...have we achieved any detectable improvement in road safety?
   
   The answer is unarguably YES. Cars on the road have increased dramatically in number since AC was making them in Thames Ditton. But so has road safety:

Road deaths have fallen by 78% since the mid 60s (from 7,985 (1966) to 1,794 (2012))

Serious injuries have come down by a similar amount.

   
   Many of us who can recall the days of horrific industrial and agricultural accidents (three in front of my very eyes, an experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy) as well as road carnage are much in favour of most UK 'health and safety' legislation: when examined clause by clause and provision by provision the very great majority of it is sensible.

[paho]

..it would seem that New Zealand and Switzerland have a system for an individual to obtain type approval of a (new) assembled vehicle, or are the procedures described in this and other threads in addition to the presentation of a CoC?
   I don´t believe its possible to take in a new car into an EC country without a CoC (e.g. EC Small Series Type Approval); this is the case for Sweden. I´m pretty sure TÜV are supporting the national and EC homogulation regulations in the same way that VCA does in UK.
   
   Here, without a CoC you´d have to take the car in in component form (i.e. as a kit), build it yourself and go thro the Swedish equivalent of an IVA approval. This was the path I was considering, but our summer-house building project and the discovery of a Brookland Ace caused a change of direction. /Paho

[B.P.Bird]

Robin I failed to make myself clear - of course you are right: The generality of modern crash worthy cars have proved to be a fine antidote to crash prone drivers. My point being that the tiny numbers of specialist 'fun' cars produced have no discernible impact one way or the other on the statistics you quote. Yet we apply to A.C.s the full rigour of Health and Safety. The only effect of this is to destroy initiative, innovation and enjoyment.
   No doubt there is an interesting discussion to be had on the merits of personal responsibility, coupled with recurrent training, versus the blanket 'one size fits all' Health and Safety approach we have now. However this is not the place and I must apologise for my little rant....

[Spantik]

Dear Paul, indeed the CoC is accepted in Switzerland (you obtain an "X" on the car license), but as anywhere in Europe (and no offense, I count Switzerland as being part of Europe;-) the local regulations ad some salt and pepper to keep us busy. The AC MkVI in France are still circulating with German license plates.
   
   Thanks Barrie for the flowers, but Rob deserves the whole bouquet, he is hard on it, I just fight with my patience.

[B.P.Bird]

Emmanuel - 'They also serve who only stand and wait.'

[Rob.Hendriks]

For my two kopeks worth, I'm of the opinion that with very little effort and cost AC could make a car that is compliant in 90% of jurisdictions, the other 10% should be relatively minor issues, that could be addressed by the purchaser or built into the purchase contract / cost and addressed by AC or their appointed representative.
   
   The items that I'm having to correct to meet the LVVTA (UK IVA) requirements, could well be taken onboard by the management of AC and incorporated in to new vehicles, in my industry this is called the process of continuous improvement. Likewise if there are quality issues, that are raised to management, then these should addressed and systems put in place to prevent reoccurrece. Within the "new" management of AC neither of these issues are being managed, to the point when you raise either a suggestion or a quality issue you are not so politely told go forth and ....
   
   2700 does not have a CoC
   
   The latest on the approval process is the technical committee have rejected the lower steering column assembly (in addition to the previous items), because of a weld between the splined shaft and the tube section that allows the lower column to collapse. This shaft will have to be re-engineered and machined from a piece of solid stock. Not a major issue, but an example of something that could be taken onboard by AC to incorporate into future cars

[paho]

Hi Emmanuel and Rob, sounds as if you both are going down the IVA route. I admire your determination, I made a decision not to go down that route as I didn't think I could afford the time or the patience, the IVA process here is thorough as it includes inspections during the building of the vehicle in addition to a an extended road worthiness inspection.
   
   Emmanual I am suprised you have to do additional checks as you have an EC CoC. I thought it was incumbant on all members of the European free trade area to accept EC conformity certificates. In Sweden if its a new vehicle and it has a EC conformance certificate there are no tests done on a new vehicle. Only checks on the authenticity of the vehicle and document is done. surely thats the whole purpose of a conformance document.
   
   Rob if its any consolation by the end of the process you´ll end up a vehicle that is better technically than any with just type approval.  I wish you both good luck!/Paho

[Rob.Hendriks]

The NZ LVVTA process is very like that of Sweden and applies to scratch built vehicles, modifications to vehicles and vehicles produced in volumes of less than 500 per year. The latter is obviously the group 2700 falls into. However herein lies the problem, as the LVVTA does not recognise low volume manufacturers and as such all vehicles in this group are considered to be scratch built e.g. the same as a hot rod or kit car built in your garage. They therefore attempt to apply all the rules retrospectively for a scratch built car that would normally be inspected and signed off at every stage of the build. The inspection and sign off documents run to 186 pages, all of which must be completed by hand or they will not be accepted. Photos and data sheets of all the various components and equipment must be provided for approval. As you can imagine this is a time consuming process and one which tests the patience to the extreme...

[Rob.Hendriks]

Looks like a busy month of May coming up.
   
   Hi-tech have been very helpful with providing drawings and have offered to assist with a couple of issues
   
   1. There is one weld on the lower steering column tube to the splined section that goes to the rack - will remove and have a one piece shaft machined, got a quote from reputable machine shop for NZD$200 (GBP100) and two days to carry out the work
   2. The safety loop for the prop-shaft is 13mm solid bar and should be 22x3mm tube - technical committee rejected this and will have a new 22mm solid bar loop fabricated, just waiting for the committee to give me the minimum material spec. Drawings supplied by Hi-tech
   3. The brake pedal lever is 6mm, not 8mm and is welded onto the lower bush - technical committee rejected this and a new one will have to be made. Hi-tech have offered to provide this
   4. The door latches are the standard Wilmot Breeden type latches, have to prove that they are burst proof - technical committee have rejected these and will probably remove them and bolt the doors closed for the certification. Other option is to modify and install approved burst-proof latches, a route I do not wish to go down (starting to make irreversible mods)
   5. The hi-level brake light is too small - new one has arrived and will be installed temporarily until such time as a permanent bracket can be machined to mount it off the existing seat belt loop mountings
   6. The rear reflectors are too small - new ones have arrived and will mount these off the rear nudge bar mounting
   7. Several bolts do not have two threads protruding from the nut - will be replaced
   8. Discovered last time home that the toe can not be adjusted in past 1/8" toe out. The extension piece on the end of the tie rod has a lock nut on it which prevents the extension piece going into the ball joint any further. This will have to be removed and go onto the inboard end, same as per the original cars.
   9. Camber/castor/tracking need to be set up
   10. Discovered alternator was not charging, will have to be removed and repaired/replaced
   
   Have got 21 days at home, 7 of those will be on an annual fishing trip leaving 8 days to get as much done as possible before the next inspection on the 15th May

[Rob.Hendriks]

The fishing trip went well and the inspection better than expected
   
   1. Steering column - accepted
   2. The safety loop for the prop-shaft. This was installed before the tunnel (photo from HT) and was obviously not designed to be removed, had to cut the old one out and modify the design of the new 22mm one so it could be installed - accepted
   3. The brake pedal - the saga continues.... new 8mm pedal fabricated with the pivot boss fully encapsulated. This was duly fitted with a great deal of skin lost as the cover plate in the foot well is fixed, so the machined pin had to be removed from the back of the pedal and the lever dropped out from the bottom. All fine until it came to reinstalling the pin, needless to say head down and A-up in the pedal box for several hours with a mirror was not fun. Passed inspection, however the photos sent to to the boffins did not appease them and they requested a remeasure of the material surrounding the pivot boss. Seems there is an unwritten rule that this should (note not shall or must) be 8mm as well and the new one only had 6mm to clear the balance bar. They have rejected another proposal from HT for 7mm of material that does not clash and now want to do a full design review and approval of the brake arrangement.....
   4. The door latches - accepted as is (or the option of bolting the doors closed). Think they saw the futility of this and agreed to let this through
   5. The hi-level brake light - accepted and will be removed post inspection
   6. The rear reflectors are too small - accepted and will be removed post inspection
   7. Several bolts do not have two threads protruding from the nut - changed and accepted
   8. Tracking - corrected
   9. Camber/castor/tracking need to be set up - Ran out of time to do this, though discovered when the bump test was done on the computer that the castor was set to 10.5deg !!
   10. Discovered alternator was not charging properly - took a bit of sorting. Removed and tested the alternator, it was fine. Eventually tracked it back to the 50A charging fuse being blown, however the way the car is wired, it can still charge back through the ignition circuit, not good and will be rectified in the future.
   
   The bump steer test was very good, 3mm over 50mm on compression and 1mm over 50mm on extension - 4mm/100mm very good result
   The brake test was done in absolute downpour, soaked to the skin, but passed all the tests set for dry road conditions
   
   So the brake pedal is now the only thing between compliance and legally being able to get the car MOT and rego'd. Next technical approval committee review on the 1st July.
   
   Car has had a stumble from day one when accelerating from 30kph-50kph, fine when revving at idle. Have checked the usual culprits of plugs, leads, ignition curcuit, etc., with no improvement. Think may have finally tracked it down to the TPS being out of calibration. Seems that any adjustment to the idle screws requires the TPS to be recalibrated. I adjusted these when resetting the butterflies and without the cable to connect the laptop, nor the knowledge at that time, did not realise that I had stuffed the calibration. Lesson learnt, software downloaded and cable on the way from the US.

[Spantik]

Hi Rob, seem that your progress is far better than mine, and you did all that by yourself and for me a manufacturer is working at. But for DOY would not work as the car shall have an original EURO5 homologation first. Hope that the TÜV will finally deliver the necessary approval, time is now running, as EURO6 is already knocking at the door.