CSX 3360

[BBK]

Here is a portion of the page I reference from the large Autokraft brochure concerning the tooling and body bucks.
   
   

[SunDude]

quote:Originally posted by B.P.Bird
   
Pedants corner: With regard to Brian's interesting post from Canada, mentioning fuel filler caps, the correct alloy quick release cap you see on competition Cobras and many other fifeties and sixties GT and sports racing cars is not a 'Monza' cap it is an 'Aston' and both types of cap were made by Enots in Birmingham. You can see the 'Monza' style on the 2 litre saloon and very early Aces. You have to note that the correct cap is an 'Aston with roller catch' as Enots also introduced an 'Aston' cap with a simpler, non-roller catch. Here are a couple of pages from an old Enots brochure with 'Monza' and both types of 'Aston' catches shewn.

   Hmmm.  Well, now I'm really confused.  But maybe that stands to reason as my Superformance Cobra replica is marketed as having a "Monza style filler (locking gas cap)" (see http://www.superformance.com/mkIII.aspx).  Taking a closer look at the gas cap on my SPF reveals that it isn't exactly the same as the one used on original 427 comp Cobras.  The catch is different.
   
   You learn something every day...
   
   Brian

[SunDude]

quote:...I think you are somewhat right in your observations on Americans and history.  The story of Shelby and AC Cars is so interesting, but it seems that the AC part of the story is mostly glossed over in the U.S.  Many people recognize the Shelby name but not AC.  Without AC, there would have been no Cobra and vice versa.  I was surprised that at the Monterey Historic races, that AC Cars was not more recognized as part of the Shelby heritage.  In fact, it would have been cool to have AC and Shelby recognized as the featured Marques at the event.  Perhaps another time...  I too appreciate the look of the MK IV and 427 "steet" Cobra with the underbody exhaust.  It is interesting what you mention of S/C cars being retrofitted to street trim.  Perhaps a new trend!

   I'm happy to report that I immediately recognized your Autokraft MkIV for what it is, when I saw it at the Monterey Historics.  You might remember when I came up and asked you about it, as it was one of the first MkIVs I'd ever seen in the flesh.  I'm the chubby guy in the "got cobras?" T-shirt.
   
   

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by SunDude
   

quote:...I think you are somewhat right in your observations on Americans and history.  The story of Shelby and AC Cars is so interesting, but it seems that the AC part of the story is mostly glossed over in the U.S.  Many people recognize the Shelby name but not AC.  Without AC, there would have been no Cobra and vice versa.  I was surprised that at the Monterey Historic races, that AC Cars was not more recognized as part of the Shelby heritage.  In fact, it would have been cool to have AC and Shelby recognized as the featured Marques at the event.  Perhaps another time...  I too appreciate the look of the MK IV and 427 "steet" Cobra with the underbody exhaust.  It is interesting what you mention of S/C cars being retrofitted to street trim.  Perhaps a new trend!

   I'm happy to report that I immediately recognized your Autokraft MkIV for what it is, when I saw it at the Monterey Historics.  You might remember when I came up and asked you about it, as it was one of the first MkIVs I'd ever seen in the flesh.  I'm the chubby guy in the "got cobras?" T-shirt.
   
   
   

   
   I believe I recollect talking with you at the races.  I did not know who you were at the time.  Nice to make that connection.  Were you able to attend the ACOC and Shelby dinner in Pacific Grove on Friday?  I was there but there were lots of people.  Love your T-Shirt!!

[SunDude]

quote:I believe I recollect talking with you at the races.  I did not know who you were at the time.  Nice to make that connection.  Were you able to attend the ACOC and Shelby dinner in Pacific Grove on Friday?  I was there but there were lots of people.  Love your T-Shirt!!
   

   Thanks.  There are few places where that shirt makes any sense, but this year's Monterey Historics was certainly one of them.
   
   No, I wasn't able to attend the ACOC event last week.  I was in Monterey in August on vacation from Canada.  I organized our entire family vacation around the Historics so I could attend this once-in-a-lifetime event.  I also attended SAAC-37 at Watkins Glen, which was much closer to home.

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by SunDude
   

quote:I believe I recollect talking with you at the races.  I did not know who you were at the time.  Nice to make that connection.  Were you able to attend the ACOC and Shelby dinner in Pacific Grove on Friday?  I was there but there were lots of people.  Love your T-Shirt!!
   

   Thanks.  There are few places where that shirt makes any sense, but this year's Monterey Historics was certainly one of them.
   
   No, I wasn't able to attend the ACOC event last week.  I was in Monterey in August on vacation from Canada.  I organized our entire family vacation around the Historics so I could attend this once-in-a-lifetime event.  I also attended SAAC-37 at Watkins Glen, which was much closer to home.
   

   
   Sorry, I meant the ACOC/Shelby dinner during the Monterey Historics week, on the Friday before the main Saturday race day (not last Friday).  The dinner was organized by Jerry Rosenstock.  Gus Meyjes was there, Lynn Park, Jerry Feldman, Jim Farley of FoMoCo and many others.  It was a very nice event.  Held in Pacific Grove at Fandango Restaurant.  A friend of mine from Sacramento went to the SAAC-37 event at Watkins Glen too.  Must have been fun.  It is beautiful there.

[SunDude]

quote:Originally posted by BBK
   

quote:Originally posted by SunDude
   

quote:I believe I recollect talking with you at the races.  I did not know who you were at the time.  Nice to make that connection.  Were you able to attend the ACOC and Shelby dinner in Pacific Grove on Friday?  I was there but there were lots of people.  Love your T-Shirt!!
   

   Thanks.  There are few places where that shirt makes any sense, but this year's Monterey Historics was certainly one of them.
   
   No, I wasn't able to attend the ACOC event last week.  I was in Monterey in August on vacation from Canada.  I organized our entire family vacation around the Historics so I could attend this once-in-a-lifetime event.  I also attended SAAC-37 at Watkins Glen, which was much closer to home.
   

   
   Sorry, I meant the ACOC/Shelby dinner during the Monterey Historics week, on the Friday before the main Saturday race day (not last Friday).  The dinner was organized by Jerry Rosenstock.  Gus Meyjes was there, Lynn Park, Jerry Feldman, Jim Farley of FoMoCo and many others.  It was a very nice event.  Held in Pacific Grove at Fandango Restaurant.  A friend of mine from Sacramento went to the SAAC-37 event at Watkins Glen too.  Must have been fun.  It is beautiful there.
   

   
   Oh...I see.
   
   No, I didn't know it was taking place then.  I hadn't heard about it.  Sounds like it would've been a good time.  But I did go to the Baja Cantina on Thursday night which I'd read about on the SAAC forum.
   
   SAAC-38 is supposed to be in Fontana, California next year.  You should go if you have the time.

[BBK]

Oh...I see.
   
   No, I didn't know it was taking place then.  I hadn't heard about it.  Sounds like it would've been a good time.  But I did go to the Baja Cantina on Thursday night which I'd read about on the SAAC forum.
   
   SAAC-38 is supposed to be in Fontana, California next year.  You should go if you have the time.
   [/quote]
   
   Too bad that you did not know about it.  It was a great dinner.  Thanks for the mention of the SAAC-38 event in Fontana. Fontana is in Southern California.  Think I might drive down the coast for that one!

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by BBK
   

quote:Originally posted by TLegate
   
Correction - we don't know that Autokraft had access to the 427 body bucks. The reason is simple - they went into a skip many years prior to that. Ask Gerry Hawkridge who was at AC at the time when he was a student on work placement. He would have kept them himself but he couldn't get them into the back of a Mini! Autokraft did have the 289 bucks.
   

   
   To Sundude and Trevor and French Frie....very interesting about the 427 body bucks.  I was under the impression that the Mk IV cars were produced on these same body bucks as the 60's 427 cars.  I have collected a number of "period" articles in various car magazines from the U.S. and Europe re. the MK IV. and the impression from reading the articles is that Brian Angliss acquired the original body bucks from AC and used them for production of the Mk IV.  Sounds like he definitely acquired the body bucks for the 289 cars per Trevor.  I was able to purchase a large multi-page Autokraft brochure from the 80's which states...
   
   "Autokraft is the only company in the world that owns the original chassis assembly jigs and fixtures, the original drop forging dies, bodywork formers and specialized tooling as used by A.C. Cars during the 1960s for the construction of each and every A.C. Cobra manufactured.
   
   It is by using these very same jigs, fixtures, formers, tools and equipment that the Mk IV variants are produced.  Over 2500 highly skilled man hours go into the manufacture of each car, retaining to this day the traditional coachbuilding methods used by A.C. Cars and perpetuated by the craftsmen of Autokraft Limited."
   
   Trevor, your book states regarding Brian Angliss..."Original moulds for assorted parts were tracked down and purchased from various ex-AC contractors and later even the original body formers were acquired from AC.  Cobra Parts could now supply body panels and these were sent to a company in the USA, Cobra Performance of Sacramento, in exchange for gearbox and engine items."
   
   Based on all I have read, including the Autokraft literature and magazine articles, my assumption was that the Mk IV was built on the original 427 chassis jigs and body bucks.  I am sorry if I have mis-stated the situation concerning the body work of the Mk IV and stand corrected.  Thank you Trevor.  As French Frie asks...what happened to the original 427 body bucks and do we know where they are now?
   

   
   With the thought that there is some cross pollination on this topic between the Cobra (Thames Ditton) and Mk IV forums, I decided not to move the topic to the Mk IV forum.  I had posted a larger photo of a page from a "period" Autokraft brochure with some verbiage I had quoted from the page shown.  It is hard to read the wording in the photo I previously posted, so am posting a closer view of the wording below.
   
   
   
   Autokraft appears to definitevely state that they acquired all of the chassis jigs and associated fixtures, dies, body bucks and tooling used to make every Cobra manufactured.  So, I am thinking that perhaps there might be a bit of "puffery" if you will, that all of the original toolings etc. were obtained based on Trevor's insights.  It would be interesting to know what happened to the 427 body bucks if Brian Angliss indeed did not have them in his possession!  Anyone have further insights to all of this?

[Mark IV]

Brian Angliss was not adverse to spinning a little tale to sell cars!
   
    No, they did NOT have the ORIGINAL AC 427 body bucks, the ones I saw circa 1985 were recreated in FRP.
   
   He also often quoted the 2000-2500 man-hours to build a MK IV. Brian Burford, the works manager at the old Brookland shed told me "If we took that long to make one, we would be way upside-down" or something to that effect. He also confirmed that to Paul Thomas, another MK IV Ford dealer some time before Mr. Burford's unfortunate demise.
   
   This takes nothing away from te high quality that Autokraft put into every car I saw. Just that the reality and the story told were just a little different....................

[BBK]

quote:Originally posted by Mark IV
   
Brian Angliss was not adverse to spinning a little tale to sell cars!
   
    No, they did NOT have the ORIGINAL AC 427 body bucks, the ones I saw circa 1985 were recreated in FRP.
   
   He also often quoted the 2000-2500 man-hours to build a MK IV. Brian Burford, the works manager at the old Brookland shed told me "If we took that long to make one, we would be way upside-down" or something to that effect. He also confirmed that to Paul Thomas, another MK IV Ford dealer some time before Mr. Burford's unfortunate demise.
   
   This takes nothing away from te high quality that Autokraft put into every car I saw. Just that the reality and the story told were just a little different....................
   

   
   Mark IV, that is very interesting. The mention of the original tooling, body formers etc. seems to have been perpetuated in so many places over time, not only in the AC/Autokraft brochures but in magazine articles and the Internet.  The AC Heritage web site even states that their "New Build AC 427" cars (body and chassis)  are made on the original Thames Ditton factory tooling.  So, unless AC Heritage somehow managed to get the original 427 body bucks then they must be stretching the truth a bit too!  Thanks for the information on the number of man hours that went into the cars. No doubt quite a few as the cars is so well put together....my paint is 25 years old and still looks almost new!  It is such a high quality car. I love it.

[dkp_cobra]

quote:Originally posted by BBK
   ....my paint is 25 years old and still looks almost new!  It is such a high quality car. I love it.
   

   
   That's interesting. Is it a low mileage car? When I bought my MK IV (first reg. 1984) it had a little bit more than 60T km on the clock and the paint was terrible. A lot of spiders and cracks but the original paint.

[French Frie]

mine (26 years old) is also almost perfect, with a deep color ... not obvious on red, which tend to oxyde ! the painting work by Autokraft was celebrated in the period articles, and I understand why !

[Mark IV]

quote:Originally posted by BBK
   

quote:Originally posted by Mark IV
   

   

   
   Mark IV, that is very interesting. The mention of the original tooling, body formers etc. seems to have been perpetuated in so many places over time, not only in the AC/Autokraft brochures but in magazine articles and the Internet.  The AC Heritage web site even states that their "New Build AC 427" cars (body and chassis)  are made on the original Thames Ditton factory tooling.  So, unless AC Heritage somehow managed to get the original 427 body bucks then they must be stretching the truth a bit too!  Thanks for the information on the number of man hours that went into the cars. No doubt quite a few as the cars is so well put together....my paint is 25 years old and still looks almost new!  It is such a high quality car. I love it.
   

   
   Autokraft DID have the chassis jigs and much chassis tooling from AC but the 427 body bucks were not amoungst the items. As Mr.Legate indicated, the "289" body tools WERE extant and Autokraft produced nemerous parts and some cars from them. They were building a 289 "FIA" cutback door body in May 1985 when I first visited Brooklands.

[TLegate]

I can only quote the saga of the body bucks from the reliable source who was at AC. I was a starving art student at the time (as opposed to a starving photographer/'author'). I do know that a lot of tooling went into the dustbin and B.A. did of course acquire everything - that was left in the factory. It always sounds better if stuff is made on the 'original tooling' and Brian was not the only one to expand the truth a tad. A gent from Texas was waaay better at that game As for where the bucks are now? Either incinerated or in landfill, maybe with a housing estate over the top (propbably called Harlow). Actually I might consider digging for them myself! I am quite certain I can find them - might even find that long-lost FIA car there at the same time....my fortune awaits.....
   
   It is a matter of record that AC disposed of a lot of tooling which is the very reason that CP (Cobra Parts) came into being , before mophing into Autokraft. Cobra owners had a lot of trouble sourcing spares from around 1970 onwards and this was confirmed when I interviewed an owner in 1979. He needed a small piece for his car - AC 289 Sports - but AC didn't have the part in stock and their attitude was "hard luck". What really annoyed him was the fact he could hear a busy machine shop working in the background but AC couldn't be bothered to make the part for him. He went to CP and Brian went into his workshop, made the part while he waited and gave it to him free of charge. How to make friends and influence future customers. I recall that AC had a pretty poor image amongst some folks back then, in them there far off days.