CF 64 coming up for auction

[cliffordl]

1969 Coupe, at Bonhams Monaco 30 April 2012. Est - £55,000-65,000

[Classicus]

Hi Clifford,
   
   Do you mean CF 46 lot 331 at RAF Museum Hendon UK on 30th April ?
   
   http://old.bonhams.com/eur/auction/20141/lot/331/#
   
   http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t16001597/cf-46/
   
   

[cliffordl]

Monaco - Hendon ; not quite the same level of glamour! I must pay closer attention to my emails and not just look at the pretty pictures..
   
   Be very interesting to see if the Middle Eastern money is still chasing Frua's.

[shep]

I remember CF46. We did some work on it at Uniclip Automotive about 10 years ago when owned by Steve Cunningham. It was later sold to a new owner in Germany, and was spotted a couple of years ago on the street in Belgium. From memory it was in super condition, and ought to do well at auction.

[lyonheart84]

The car sold for £ 67,000 plus buyer's premium, a much more realistic market price for an immaculate fastback in the face of 1 or 2 exceptional auction results in the last year. They were probably caused by 2 or 3 enthusiastic bidders pushing each other up a bit too much. It needed a couple of minor cosmetics on the paint.

[Classicus]

Puzzling. I usually try to check up at least once a month on Google entering "AC 428 for sale", especially at this time of year, to see if there's anything happening worldwide. Puzzling because I did a full Internet search about 10 days ago, going back about 10 Google pages, including a separate one using Bonham's own search engine on their website but nothing showed up anywhere at all. Perhaps I'm missing something somewhere, nevertheless I was very surprised indeed to see Clifford's post about CF 46 on the 26th April at about 9.50 am saying that the auction was just 4 days later on the 30th. I'm now wondering if this contrasting sale figure might just reflect the fact that a lot of potential buyers might also not have known about it either in the short time available ? I do know that this is one of the main reasons why I particularly like RM's method and one or two others where full auction details about cars are usually up on the Net some 4 to 6 weeks beforehand.
   
   Either way couldn't there be some sort of set time limit that permanently removes this problem guaranteeing, say a minimum of one month before a sale date, that full and final sale information becomes publicly available on the Net as I think it would be much more in buyer's and seller's interests. Definitely no expert but could it work ?

[lyonheart84]

I was actually at the auction today and it was extremely well attended and busy with a large number of serious buyers there. A high percentage of cars sold. I think you will find that Bonhams mail shot all of their registered buyers and sellers as like most auction houses they mostly have repeat customers. It seems to me that they knew most of the room on a first name basis. There were several bidders on the 428 including me but I stopped at a realistic ceiling because of the steep 15% buyers premium ( plus 20% VAT on the premium ). You need at least 2 bidders getting carried away to see high figures and had me or other bidders gone higher who knows what the winning bidder might have gone up to, that's the fun ( and risk ) of auctions, although I haven't been to one for several years before today.  Bonhams do not usually list their cars on the 2 main classic websites so that is why you probably did not see the AC mentioned. It was indeed listed on their auction website for that sale and was in the colour catalogue printed some time ago. Many people will not buy at auctions because you cannot even hear a car run, much less drive it or have it checked over and today it was so dark at the venue that you could not see most of the cars properly! Several people bought over the phone or internet and would not have been able to see the cars beforehand. To be honest some of the cars bought 'blind' today were poor quality and there may be a few disappointed buyers once they take delivery!

[Classicus]

quote:Originally posted by lyonheart84
   
Bonhams do not usually list their cars on the 2 main classic websites so that is why you probably did not see the AC mentioned.

   I think nowadays the key issue to enduring profitability wthout doubt lies in how well a classic car auction is marketed or not on the worldwide internet without having to spend ages looking for it, as I'm pretty sure I and perhaps many others would have found it ages ago if it had been for example the specialist RM approach. My view is that someone's got a very real bargain indeed today with CF 46 in view of CFX 4's recent asking price, whether it sold or not, at the Techno Classica in Essen Germany motor show of 265,000 euros. And why I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see it on a dealer's website sooner or later for who knows what ridiculous price, unless it's already destined for the Middle East in which case we'll probably never hear of it again. There are just too few of them to go round in the first place which means that it will always be a seller's market.
   
   It's why I don't understand why there couldn't be some sort of set time limit that permanently removes this Internet marketing problem guaranteeing, say a minimum of one month before a sale date, that full and final sale information becomes publicly available on the Net giving time for everyone worldwide to if necessary
   visit in person and check out the car thoroughly and ask all the awkward questions face to face. Surely it's got to be a whole lot fairer on buyers and sellers alike in the long run than the situation at present ?
   
   Never mind, I just keep hoping the new AC Board will consider a new Mk II 428 as soon as possible then we'll all be happy, otherwise we'll all be praying for a Mk II "Petite" before it's too late.

[lyonheart84]

Paul, even if the cars are advertised weeks in advance of an auction the viewing is only ever on the day of the auction or very occasionally the day before. It would not be viable to get all the cars from all over Europe or indeed other parts of the World long in advance of the auction ( the 428 came in from Germany for the auction ), plus not only would transport and storage probably be prohibitive for the auction house, but also other costs like insurance and cleaning / maintenance be too high. I also cannot imagine many owners being too keen to leave their sometimes very valuable pride and joy for weeks in someone else's hands. Surprisingly we still have a lot of people contact us that do not have computers and do not use the internet, so they might well feel it is fairer for the auction cars to be marketed in regular magazine adverts and catalogues. It might not have occurred to you but I believe sometimes the auction houses do not actually want to 'over-promote' a sale. Most of the auction venues in this country are generally full on the day and if you had 2000 potential buyers turn up at a venue that realistically holds 400 bidders you start to run into logistical problems. Even the bidding registration can be a time consuming and lengthy process if there are too many people. They don't after all want hundreds of tyre kickers and dreamers.

[Classicus]

As I said right at the beginning I'm definitely no expert just asking a general question throughout so I'm quite sure you're absolutely right. What I am saying is that I think the key issue lies in how well a classic car auction is marketed or not on the worldwide internet without having to spend ages looking for it, and why I particularly like RM's method and one or two others where full auction details about cars are usually up on the Net some 4 to 6 weeks beforehand. The ins and outs of how they themselves go about it of course I've absolutely no idea at all but they certainly seem to be highly successful.

[cliffordl]

As a 428 owner who bought his car at Bonhams Henden and also happens to be an auctioneer I thought I'd add my thoughts for what its worth.
   
   I received an email from a Fine Arts based auction search company (Artfact) alerting me to the recent Bonhams sale and posted it here the same day.
   Bonhams bombard me with regular postings regarding their upcoming sales but all only mention the highlights (see the forthcoming Goodwood sale for some really tempting stuff).Catalogues are really only obtainable in exchange for hard cash but their web listing is the same and posts up about a week or so before the sale. BTW buying the catalogue is the cheapest way in to both the Revival and the Festival of Speed (but you have to go on the Friday).
   The marketing of lots for auction should relate to the scarcity and value of the lot/sale concerned. Most auctioneers now post everything on the web with many using additional sites for pre-sale publicity. I think that Bonhams leave it far too late - if you are marketing something in the £50,000 plus category your end buyer is usually someone who is busy earning or spending their money and may well miss a sale that has a short run-up period.
   
   Yesterdays sale price seems low - a full room does not mean that everything will sell well, the buyers may well all be there for one lot or specific collection and Bonhams had a fairly wide ranging selection on offer. The classic car market for vehicles over £15,000 is going from strength to strength but outside of Astons and Ferraris seems to be collector rather than investor driven. Even taking premium into consideration this sale is a little disappointing and surely could have been bettered by a private sale. Okay the Swiss car at over £200,000 seems mad money but the £175,000 convertible (bought at Bonhams for £70,800 and traded upwards)now appears to be sold.
   
   Judging by the past few years 428 sale prices I'd want to buy at Bonhams and sell through either RM or H&H but hey thats the fun of auctions...

[lyonheart84]

Hi Clifford, do you think Bonhams might do their marketing later as they take consignments on much closer to the actual sale than some of the other companies and therefore have a shorter lead time? It's all very well RM marketing a couple of months before but that might not attract sellers that suddenly need to offload a car due to unexpected circumstances, or possibly the need to realise fast cash to buy something else they want even more. Quick cash sales are really only available selling to dealers or at auctions, as selling privately to try and achieve a top market value can take many months with more unusual cars and some people do not have time or the inclination. That expensive convertible as you pointed out went through several dealers and I think took 2 years to finally go into private hands and ( probably ) none of us know the final selling price or if it involved one or more part exchanges. Surprisingly quite a large number of high value classic car buyers treat their purchases in the same way as they do their modern luxury cars, in that they don't mind dropping money when they want to move them on quickly because they fancy a change........

[cliffordl]

Yes, absolutely. The balancing act is between making sure that you have enough lots (or value)and giving yourself enough time to market them.
   Lets face it Bonhams are doing perfectly well with their formula so it works for them. Still holding off to the last minute for the few late entries has to be to the detriment of the other vendors -