AC 427 S/C Continuation

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
   "Dave,
   I checked your website, now I see where you are coming from, you are in the kit car business! Now be serious, you can't compare a Dax or any other fiberglass kit car to a Kirkham! Funny, I dont want to be rude, but this is a different ball game altogether. I am not putting down fiberglass kits, they fullfill a particular price point."
   
   So please enlighten me as to what is so different. It is a car sold for self assembly. The difference being what?
   The price and what the completed vehicle represents. In either case the car has to be assembled by the customer or their agent.
   Although the Kirkham may take the term "Kit car" to another lever it is still a kit car. unfortunately the label "Kit car" conjurs up images of cars built with bubblegum and string which is all too often exactly that. Its is the fact that the Kirkham is the king of the hill in the authenticity stakes and the Dax is not and as you say it fills a price point in the market. There are kits available that are not a patch on the Dax but they still come under the same "Kit car" umbrella.
   i can see you are offended by people refering you your car as a kit car but I'm sure the owner of a genuine 60's car would be offended if at one of their gatherings you tried to pass your car off as some legendary racer.
   
   

   
   Dave, what is different between driving an exact replica and a car that is loosely based on the original is the driving experience. Original Cobras drive great! coil springs cars even better! all combine with vast amounts of power and you get one of the greatest car of the 60's. I have owned and driven a few 60' and 70's cars, to me the Cobra is at the top. A combination of a rigid chassis, lightweight  and ample power. when compared to Italian exotics, like the Ghibli, 275GTB, even Daytona, Cobra are just way better to drive.
   Take a car like a Dax for example, yes it looks like a Cobra, but get behind the wheel and suddenly you are in a different world. Gone is the beefy chassis, gone is the light aluminum body work! here comes a skimpy chassis, suspensions that have not been designed to work with the chassis, yes you can have a lot of power but some of these cars can be downright dangerous with unpredicable handling.
   Yes it looks somewhat like a Cobra, but thats it!
   
   Emmanuel

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   

quote:Originally posted by dave
   
   "Dave,
   I checked your website, now I see where you are coming from, you are in the kit car business! Now be serious, you can't compare a Dax or any other fiberglass kit car to a Kirkham! Funny, I dont want to be rude, but this is a different ball game altogether. I am not putting down fiberglass kits, they fullfill a particular price point."
   
   So please enlighten me as to what is so different. It is a car sold for self assembly. The difference being what?
   The price and what the completed vehicle represents. In either case the car has to be assembled by the customer or their agent.
   Although the Kirkham may take the term "Kit car" to another lever it is still a kit car. unfortunately the label "Kit car" conjurs up images of cars built with bubblegum and string which is all too often exactly that. Its is the fact that the Kirkham is the king of the hill in the authenticity stakes and the Dax is not and as you say it fills a price point in the market. There are kits available that are not a patch on the Dax but they still come under the same "Kit car" umbrella.
   i can see you are offended by people refering you your car as a kit car but I'm sure the owner of a genuine 60's car would be offended if at one of their gatherings you tried to pass your car off as some legendary racer.
   
   

   
   Dave, what is different between driving an exact replica and a car that is loosely based on the original is the driving experience. Original Cobras drive great! coil springs cars even better! all combine with vast amounts of power and you get one of the greatest car of the 60's. I have owned and driven a few 60' and 70's cars, to me the Cobra is at the top. A combination of a rigid chassis, lightweight  and ample power. when compared to Italian exotics, like the Ghibli, 275GTB, even Daytona, Cobra are just way better to drive.
   Take a car like a Dax for example, yes it looks like a Cobra, but get behind the wheel and suddenly you are in a different world. Gone is the beefy chassis, gone is the light aluminum body work! here comes a skimpy chassis, suspensions that have not been designed to work with the chassis, yes you can have a lot of power but some of these cars can be downright dangerous with unpredicable handling.
   Yes it looks somewhat like a Cobra, but thats it!
   
   Emmanuel
   

   
   I think you're playing Devil's Advocate. Not really an AC topic, but companies such as Dax and Gardner Douglas have purpose built chassis and are race proven. You can certainly buy the Gardner Douglas as an all new fully-built car with the latest Corvette engine and someone like Dave Brookes can do the same with a Dax Tojeiro (Cobra)
   
   Dangerous, unpredictable handling? On a properly set up Dax, untrue. And I would hazard a guess that the Gardner Douglas would run rings around a Kirkham on the track. I'm sure Dave will be able to enlighten you on the chassis of these two cars:
   
   http://www.daxcars.co.uk/tojeiro/index.htm
   
   http://www.gdcars.com/images/gallery/gd427/DSC00007_JPG_gd427.jpg
   
   They are both highly regarded proven designs.

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   
   I think you're playing Devil's Advocate. Not really an AC topic, but companies such as Dax and Gardner Douglas have purpose built chassis and are race proven. You can certainly buy the Gardner Douglas as an all new fully-built car with the latest Corvette engine and someone like Dave Brookes can do the same with a Dax Tojeiro (Cobra)
   
   Dangerous, unpredictable handling? On a properly set up Dax, untrue. And I would hazard a guess that the Gardner Douglas would run rings around a Kirkham on the track. I'm sure Dave will be able to enlighten you on the chassis of these two cars:
   
   http://www.daxcars.co.uk/tojeiro/index.htm
   
   http://www.gdcars.com/images/gallery/gd427/DSC00007_JPG_gd427.jpg
   
   They are both highly regarded proven designs.
   
   

   
   Chafford,
   
   You may be right, some kit cars may be faster than the cobra, maybe the GD cars are, the chassis looks interesting. However, I have driven a couple of kit cars here in the US and they were not great believe me. But that is not the point, here we are talking about ACs and Cobras and these kits cars are not, they just vaguely resemble it that's it. If y want to go faster on a track any bone stock Porsche GT3 will run rings around any of these cars.
   
   My point
   
   Emmanuel

[Chafford]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   

quote:Originally posted by Chafford
   
   I think you're playing Devil's Advocate. Not really an AC topic, but companies such as Dax and Gardner Douglas have purpose built chassis and are race proven. You can certainly buy the Gardner Douglas as an all new fully-built car with the latest Corvette engine and someone like Dave Brookes can do the same with a Dax Tojeiro (Cobra)
   
   Dangerous, unpredictable handling? On a properly set up Dax, untrue. And I would hazard a guess that the Gardner Douglas would run rings around a Kirkham on the track. I'm sure Dave will be able to enlighten you on the chassis of these two cars:
   
   http://www.daxcars.co.uk/tojeiro/index.htm
   
   http://www.gdcars.com/images/gallery/gd427/DSC00007_JPG_gd427.jpg
   
   They are both highly regarded proven designs.
   
   

   
   Chafford,
   
   You may be right, some kit cars may be faster than the cobra, maybe the GD cars are, the chassis looks interesting. However, I have driven a couple of kit cars here in the US and they were not great believe me. But that is not the point, here we are talking about ACs and Cobras and these kits cars are not, they just vaguely resemble it that's it.
   
   My point
   
   Emmanuel
   

   
   I agree there are poor kit cars on both sides of the Pond but the Dax Tojeiro isn't one of them. However you specifically mentioned the Dax as having a skimpy chassis and dangerous handling which is untrue and unfair to the manufacturer.

[Emmanueld]

Chafford,
   
   That maybe so, but look at the chassis, you cant have a very rigid structure with such small square tubing! impossible! Maybe if you bond it to a rigid tub ala Lotus. Just maybe, it might handle! Emmanuel

[dave]

To the above post.
   Emmanuel you really need to go head to head with either the GD or the Dax on a track with your car, I hope there is room between your legs for your tail. Boith the GD and the Dax chassis are more torsionally rigid that an original AC. It ain't always the gauge of the metal that makes it stiff, it's where you put it than counts.
   
   Hi Chafford.
   You are certainly right, the GD and the Dax will run rings around an original Cobra on the track but that it not what my point was as the two kits have both gone through numerous compromises to the original Cobra design in order to do this. I think Dax made the mistake of fitting a BB Chevy to their De Dion demo car when a lighter LS7 or such like would have made for an even faster car on the track.
   
   Emmanuel.
   I was never going to touch on the handling characteristics of the original over some of the higher end UK lookalike kits. I have never driven an original but i know a number of people who have and they have all said that the handling is apalling and very 1960's in feel and does not come up to scratch with some of the modern lookalike/"Replica" kits.
   Again I go back to my original point. The kirkham is a kit. ie. a car sold in component form for self assembly.  How does the Kirkham differ from this?
   
   I am not saying that the handling characteristics if the original or the Kirkham is poor because that is how a Real Cobra is supposed to handle and if i had the money and the inclination then the Kirkham would be the one I would buy.
   You (In my opinion) have the best Cobra replica there is and possibly the only one worthy of the title "Replica". But please do not underestimate the lookalikes in any other department other than authentic looks, some of them are incredible in the handling stakes for cars of their weight, shape and layout.
   For a living I build sports cars and your posts seem to imply that I would not be capable of building a Kirkham, Yet you are more than capable of building a Kirkham (as i have seen in your pictures), what do you do as a profession that makes you more qualified than me? You do not need to answer as my last paragraph was purely ti indicate what i feel you are implying....If you know what i mean.

[Emmanueld]

Dave, I have nothing against kit cars, quite the contrary, A friend of mine just bought one of those Jaguar C type replicas, the car is awsome, just like the original, 1800Lbs, amazing, I would love to have one! I think you are mistaking about the handling of Cobras' They handle so much better than other 60s' cars, but that's for another day. Why not build a new sports car? with a new body style? Why build another Cobra? Boring?? Emmanuel

[Emmanueld]

I like to discuss automobiles, any kind of automobile, I just wish I were able to talk about original ACs' as well!
   
   Emmanuel

[dave]

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   
Dave, I have nothing against kit cars, quite the contrary, A friend of mine just bought one of those Jaguar C type replicas, the car is awsome, just like the original, 1800Lbs, amazing, I would love to have one! I think you are mistaking about the handling of Cobras' They handle so much better than other 60s' cars, but that's for another day. Why not build a new sports car? with a new body style? Why build another Cobra? Boring?? Emmanuel
   

   
   Hi Emmanuel.
   I feel there are too many people trying to reinvent the wheel with new car designs and they either look like they belong in Toys R Us (Do you have those in the States?) or some sort of space ship that will travel at 800 Light years an hour. They do nothing for me. I still like the Cobra shape, E type jags do nothing for me neither do Ferrari enzos. The major manufacturers don't always get it right when designing a new car and they have mega budgets what chance does the little guy have. The only things that are sensibly budgeted in the UK that have that "Scary" look about them and are as scary as they look are TVR's and they have now gone.......Well almost.
   
   I believe that a sports car should be front engined, rear wheel drive with no turbos or super chargers and more torque than you can shake a stick at. Without designing something that does not embody the Cobra in some way and still meet all the above is going to be near on impossible.

[dave]

messed up posting message please ignore.
   sorry.[:I]

[SB7019]

Dave.  Obviously some people like superchargers as proved by the $5.5 million spent last weekend!

[dave]

quote:Originally posted by SB7019
   
Dave.  Obviously some people like superchargers as proved by the $5.5 million spent last weekend!
   

   
   Too right. Stunning result for the seller.
   What I should have said was "Not fitted with turbos etc. as std." then you can make a very powerful car even more powerful by fitting them.
   My gripe with turbos etc. is cars that would be gutless without them, Mitsu. Evos etc.

[Emmanueld]

quote:Originally posted by dave
   

quote:Originally posted by Emmanueld
   
Dave, I have nothing against kit cars, quite the contrary, A friend of mine just bought one of those Jaguar C type replicas, the car is awsome, just like the original, 1800Lbs, amazing, I would love to have one! I think you are mistaking about the handling of Cobras' They handle so much better than other 60s' cars, but that's for another day. Why not build a new sports car? with a new body style? Why build another Cobra? Boring?? Emmanuel
   

   
   Hi Emmanuel.
   I feel there are too many people trying to reinvent the wheel with new car designs and they either look like they belong in Toys R Us (Do you have those in the States?) or some sort of space ship that will travel at 800 Light years an hour. They do nothing for me. I still like the Cobra shape, E type jags do nothing for me neither do Ferrari enzos. The major manufacturers don't always get it right when designing a new car and they have mega budgets what chance does the little guy have. The only things that are sensibly budgeted in the UK that have that "Scary" look about them and are as scary as they look are TVR's and they have now gone.......Well almost.
   
   I believe that a sports car should be front engined, rear wheel drive with no turbos or super chargers and more torque than you can shake a stick at. Without designing something that does not embody the Cobra in some way and still meet all the above is going to be near on impossible.
   
   

   
   Dave
   
   I agree 100%, the $5.5M, car is virtually undrivable and reached this amount just because it was one of a kind Shelby car (Sorry 2 of a kind since there was a second one built) plus it's automatic!
   
   However, there are some center or rear engined cars I would not mind owning!
   There is nothing like the feel of a 550hp big block in a 2000Lbs car. I have never felt that in any other car I have driven.
   []
   Emmanuel

[Chafford]

We've deviated from the original topic (partly my fault!)so back to ACs!!
   
   Does the AC 427 S/C Continuation car have the same driving characteristics as a 60s Shelby 427 S/C?

[Emmanueld]

If the AC 427 S/C Continuation car is a reproduction of the MKIII, it can not be legally registered in the US. It would not emissions or safety requirements. This why you have not seen any in a US auction!
   
   Emmanuel