Author Topic: Value of found AC Bristol  (Read 5697 times)

nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2020, 01:31:37 »
Thanks for the clarification, Robin.
So would you class the above BEX 310 as the surviving, original 1957-built Ace?
Is not the fact that it exists complete a physical manifestation of ‘continuous history’?
Although clearly modified for drag racing, there is no suggestion that it has been ‘built from AC-sourced parts’ or ‘rebuilt’, nor that it is a collection of discarded parts,  so it clearly isn’t a ‘replica’; surely ‘continuous’ title is very hard to establish for many (if not all) ‘lost & found’ cars, so couldn’t be taken as the be all and end all of accepting an original car as such?
Of course, a V.I.N should beunique to the chassis or monocoque it was issued to, so cannot be transferred to another vehicle (eg a MkI Escort rally car crashes, get’s reshelled, so a new V.I.N is legally required, but the old one is cut out & welded into the new...naughty naughty!) But continuity of title would not necessarily show such an act had occurred...
The Replica Cobra register makes it quite clear the (approximate)date of manufacture, by whom manufactured (where known), and identifies ‘cloned’ or ‘not AC(Cobra) chassis numbers‘ as applicable.

So from you statement: “Any barn-find AC will be recognised as an AC providing it has been kept together since original completion” I see no reason that you would not accept BEX 310.
Fair comment?

administrator

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 11:48:06 »
My understanding is that fitting a new manufacturer specification chassis or shell to a vehicle does not involve changing the VIN.  The guidelines for a UK historic vehicle are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

See the paragraphs under 'The criteria for substantial change'.

As an aside, I've been told that about 15% of the HMS Victory we see today in Portsmouth was at Trafalgar.  The rest has been renewed over the years.  I didn't ask whether 15% was by weight or volume.

nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 14:06:17 »
My understanding is that fitting a new manufacturer specification chassis or shell to a vehicle does not involve changing the VIN.  The guidelines for a UK historic vehicle are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

See the paragraphs under 'The criteria for substantial change'....

Very useful guidance, which shows that using O.E-spec replacement chassis/body or monocoque does not mean the vehicle would have to be reclassified as ‘substantially changed’ (but if you cut out the firewall of a Ford Anglia to fit a Chevy V8, it would!) but no mention of V.I.N.
I was referencing Andy Shepherd’s clarification of the Register principles HERE:
As promised I have investigated and can now reply to previous posts concerning the Club's registers...
Michael Grenfell has now reviewed all relevant Club documents and forum posts and concludes that:
   
   “It is my opinion that the Register’s operation:
   
   1.   Is in accordance with UK law
   2.   Is what I would expect to see from a leading register
   3.   Is in accordance with DVLA INF 26 guidance.”

...Points outstanding when we commissioned the review were:
   
   Gus(vehicle identity transfer)
   You are correct; a vehicle identity (VIN or chassis number) cannot be transferred from one vehicle to another in most European (including UK) law....

...Facts about particular cars sent direct to our registrars are always welcome, and the Council will always address considered register policy and operational recommendations.
   
   Andy Shepherd
So yes, a replacement chassis or monocoque should have a new V.I.N. 👍🏻
Quote
You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:

colour
engine
cylinder capacity (cc)
fuel type
chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)

DVLA Guidance
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 14:21:05 by nikbj68 »

rstainer

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2020, 14:36:40 »
Nik,

The questions I answered are:
  • Am I missing something here? Yes.
  • What am I missing here? ACOC register principles previously set out in ACtion.
Any questions regarding individual ACs should be directed to the relevant registrar.

Questions regarding registrar principles, which accord with leading international practice, should be directed to Council.

RS

nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2020, 15:58:21 »
Thank you Robin


I look forward to following the progress of BEX 310, and hopefully it’s restoration back to original Bristol-spec. 👍🏻
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 16:02:26 by nikbj68 »

Cobra Ned

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2020, 02:38:19 »
As it happens, BEX 310 was last sold in 1973, but absent a title as it was a race car and not intended for use as a street car. So it traded hands on a bill of sale and the VIN was not mentioned. I would think the fact that it has been in the same ownership for 47 years should count for something, however. I'll see if I can get photos of any numbers on hinges, latches, or elsewhere.


nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2020, 09:05:08 »
Thanks very much for this really helpful and constructive reply, Ned, as it perfectly illustrates my point.

Here we have 47 years’ worth of continuous history, absent of title.
Would this be ‘good enough’ for you, in the SAAC, if it were a ‘CSX’ rather than ‘BEX’?
I can’t see any reason not to accept BEX310 as what it is.

Many thanks, Ned.

administrator

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2020, 10:10:43 »
Replacing the chassis or monocoque does not involve transferring the VIN from one vehicle to another.  It is the repair of the existing vehicle. 

rstainer

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2020, 10:13:13 »
Ned,

If a car has been in the same ownership for many years and was bought on a bill of sale, there's 'no reasonable doubt as to continuous history'.

'Title', in its general international use, refers to the legal basis for the ownership of any personal property, such as houses, furniture, pictures, land, vehicles, agricultural machinery etc. Road registration in many countries is not demonstration of ownership; in the UK, for example, the V5C makes this very point: it records the car's 'keeper', not owner, and is not demonstration of title. Tens of thousands of leased cars are owned by their lessors, but their named V5C keepers are their lessees, not owners.

As you know, the SAAC and the ACOC are as one on all our definitions.

All the best

Robin
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 19:11:32 by rstainer »

Cobra Ned

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2020, 14:24:01 »
Nik and Robin, thanks for the feedback and thoughtful comments. And yes, if this were a CSX car with the same credentials, we would consider it the genuine car as long as there were no other competing claims to ownership. Regrettably, what we have found with the CSX cars is that a Registry provides those bent on skullduggery a good list of cars with no recent history, and sure enough, those are the ones which miraculously crop up in out-of-the-way places. They are usually easily identified as frauds.

nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2020, 23:20:47 »
Replacing the chassis or monocoque does not involve transferring the VIN from one vehicle to another.  It is the repair of the existing vehicle.
But of course, discarded chassis or monocoque must be verified as destroyed, or you have just created a ‘ringer’! 😉😆
(Imagining our Mk1 Escort rally car again...you crash it, buy a new shell, and all the bits to complete, and put your ‘original’ vin on it...”Yeah, it’s been repaired”...but then you get greedy, sell the complete crashed car, lo and behold, the shell wasn’t that bad after all... 2 cars, 1 vin...
Oh dear....)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 00:01:40 by nikbj68 »

rstainer

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2020, 12:48:53 »
Nik,

“... must be verified as destroyed...”     UNTRUE FOR MOST JURISDICTIONS

The purpose of a register is to record the known facts of a vehicle in accordance with documented publicly-available register policy and practice. A registrar cannot make judgements on an act’s lawfulness in its jurisdiction (California? Federal law?), but can report published Court findings.

Forum activity is to be applauded but postings must be relevant to the string, in this case the Value of a found AC Bristol BEX 310. If you have any other BEX 310 or register questions kindly start another string.

RS

GSouthee

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2020, 17:23:49 »
Surely at the end of the day, the car is worth what ever someone wants to pay. Remember a car should be driven whether on the road or track/strip. They should not be toys for those looking to invest in the future perceived value.

G
Nothing is impossible, but sometimes it takes a different approach. Anyone got a big hammer? Now' get out there and drive it.

nikbj68

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2020, 15:38:32 »
Amen, brother!!! 🙏🏻

James Eastwood

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Re: Value of found AC Bristol
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2020, 17:38:32 »
Back to the subject of value, $20k feels very light as you put it, given the race history. Having said that the parts bill is going to add up very fast.

I'd be interested to know how the solid rear has been grafted on. The AC dif housing must have been cut out, I would imagine the current axle is welded in (which was typical for 60/70's 'Altered' era dragsters), rather than sprung , so one hopes not too much of the rear AC chassis has been cut out.

Here's a further idea though, you could make a very interesting NHRA classic street class dragster from all the left over period 1/4-mile parts and a Hawk fibre glass shell. Particularly if the drag racing history is documented. Then also build the Bristol Ace.

...I shall never be forgiven for mentioning drag racing on the AC forum!