Messages

301

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / mk1 cox and cob

« on: August 26, 2012, 20:04:54 »

'After 126th car the Ace Bishop worm and sector steering box was replaced by a Cam Gears rack and pinion system' [Cobra Register Introduction].
   
   Nick’s maths are beyond reproach: 2125 is the 126th car and 2126 the 127th.
   
   Of more interest is the timing: 2126, the first R&P car, left AC on 31 January 1963 but AC made another 46 Worm & Sector cars in February to July 63. Why did Shelby customers keep buying W&S cars when R&P was on the cards? Two reasons:
   
   

First, although the first AC R&P car left Thames Ditton on 31 January for US approval, Shelby and FoMoCo didn’t give the go-ahead until later in February and the next two AC R&P cars (2127 & 2128) only left Thames Ditton on 7th March for air-freight to Los Angeles.
   

   

Second, though, and more importantly, Shelby didn’t start marketing R&P cars to the general public until  most previous stock had been sold and the demand for R&P race cars and Shelby/FoMoCo demonstrators and PR cars had been met. The first 22 R&P cars (not exhaustively checked) were race cars, demonstrators and PR cars so the lowest-numbered true ‘customer’ R&P car was 2148,  ex Thames Ditton on 11th July 63 and sold by Shelby American to Julian Harrison Inc on 12th September 63.

   
   In summary, AC shipped their last W&S cars on the 1st and 2nd July 63 and their first R&P customer street cars on 2nd (2150), 10th (2151, 2 & 3) and 11th July (2148 & 9).
   
   And what of the COX/COB cars, the subject of this string? They didn’t start till October 63 and are all R&P: AC’s W&S production ended three months earlier.

302

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / mk1 cox and cob

« on: August 23, 2012, 21:03:32 »

Members have the answer in the Cobra Register on the Club's website: 'After 126th car the Ace Bishop worm and sector steering box was replaced by a Cam Gears rack and pinion system'.
   
   The Register records AC making 654 leaf spring (MkI) Cobras between 1962 and 1966.

303

ACOC News and Events / 2012 NATIONAL DAY - Stonor Park

« on: August 20, 2012, 17:14:20 »

We were very pleased to welcome Jack Sears and his wife Diana at Stonor. He took time off in the middle of his Norfolk harvest, was much taken by the range of ACs on display and spoke with many owners and their guests.

304

General Forum / 2013 International in the USA

« on: August 04, 2012, 19:52:04 »

Robin.
   
   This topic was posted throughout the ACOC Forum, I posted simply to indicate to those interested that as there are two distinct threads its worth consulting both.
   
   You are right. An International in USA west Coast is a great idea and many of us have already shown our interest, Gus Meyjes will definitely be pleased to hear of your interest, which one of your Cobras do you intend to ship across the pond.
   
   Good Luck Gus with your research and plans.. please keep us all informed preferably via one thread on Forum and via ACtion on a monthly basis.
   
   Unfortunately majority of the ACOC membership do not venture onto the forum, so are not always conversant with current issues and potential events, but could well be interested in this once in a lifetime ACOC International.
   
   Keith ..
   
   Keith,
   
   Either 2193 or 2042, depending on the itinerary.
   
   Robin

305

428 Frua Forum / 2013 ACOC International in USA?

« on: August 04, 2012, 12:40:27 »

Gus,
   
   This is a super idea that deserves a dedicated string in the General Forum.

306

General Forum / AC International in Scotland

« on: August 04, 2012, 12:34:52 »

There is a dedicated string for this exciting proposal.

[Not to pass judgement]

307

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 29, 2012, 19:22:09 »

I reiterate that the Club’s registers are non-judgemental. The above proposal would put the Club at grave litigation risk because its operation involves arbitrary judgement.
   
   The Club’s Register Policy was approved by the Council on 31 January 2002. Under the heading  ‘The Role of A Registrar’ the Policy includes:
   
   

   Not to pass judgement, and to include adverse as well positive information  

   
   I would not have become a registrar had this policy not been in place. My role as registrar is solely to record relevant public-domain facts and categorise them according to public-domain principles agreed by the Council; there is not one iota of judgement in this process.
   
   August’s  Action contains further detail. Meanwhile, if anyone would like a copy of the Club’s Register Policy or AC & Shelby Thames Ditton Cobra Categorisation principles, please email me.
   
   Any thought-through suggestions for amendments to this Policy (31 January 2002) or categorisation principles (5 December 2001) should be put in writing to the Council. They should include an illustration of their effects on vehicle categorisation and an an assessment of their effect on the Club's legal exposure.

[Not to pass judgement]

308

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 29, 2012, 18:18:06 »

The Club’s Register Policy was approved by the Council on 31 January 2002. Under the heading  ‘The Role of A Registrar’ the Policy includes:
   •   Not to pass judgement, and to include adverse as well positive information
   
   I would not have become a registrar had this policy not been in place. My role as registrar is solely to record relevant public-domain facts and categorise them according to public-domain principles agreed by the Council; there is not one iota of judgement in this process.
   
   August’s  Action contains further detail. Meanwhile, if anyone would like a copy of the Club’s Register Policy or AC & Shelby Thames Ditton Vehicle Categorisation principles, please email me.

[AC Heritage]

309

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 28, 2012, 12:30:07 »

AC Heritage
   “...anything can only be original once.”
   
   TRUE: Once a vehicle ceases to be a vehicle (by scrapping it or parting it out) it cannot subsequently reincarnate as an original vehicle.
   
   Gus Meyjes
   “I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons why a replica can have the original number, but I would have to say it is a strange string of events.”
   
   TRUE: There are various ways to obtain an original vehicle’s VIN and have it applied to a replica. However, none of these ways are lawful in most European legislative domains.
   
   Administrator
   “The car repaired by Autokraft in 1983 has been continuously registered for decades and has a pretty clear claim to the identity. I have not heard any dispute as to the accuracy of this record. If the car ever returned to the UK, I presume its identity would be upheld by the DVLA.”
   
   CORRECT, if the DVLA act as they have in the past.
   
   
   
   If anyone wants to propose a Register change (car level) or a lawful change to registry vehicle categorisation principles (register level-last amended eleven years ago) I’m very happy to hear from them.

310

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 27, 2012, 15:54:39 »

Wolfgang Specht, the car’s owner, had a carburettor fire whilst on holiday in France. The car was badly burnt and the aluminium largely beyond salvation. Specht asked Christian Wolff (who had acquired the car for Specht) to arrange its repair.
   
   Wolff took the car to Angliss, who concluded that the most economical approach was to use a new body/chassis unit rather than removing the fire-damaged body, rubbing down, cleaning, repairing and repainting the substructure and chassis, wrapping a new body on it etc.
   
   Angliss repaired the car as agreed. Christian Wolff collected the car and discarded parts, took them to Germany and returned the car to Specht. Wolff neglected to tell Specht that 6036 had a new chassis, neglected to tell him that he, Wolff, had the discarded fire-singed chassis and other parts and neglected to tell him that he, Wolff, was keeping these items.
   
   Wolff’s economy with the facts was the least of his concerns; it is reported that he later disappeared.
   
   The repair was almost thirty years ago, when very few people would spend extra money to save original material in a car that was worth not much money.

311

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 26, 2012, 14:11:52 »

6036 has continuous history and a continuing German ‘Fahrzeugbrief’, the V5C equivalent, from its original import into Germany until its eventual 2008 sale by Kay Hafner to Joachim von Buest. As in this country, so in Germany it is not possible to record a vehicle as being destroyed whilst keeping the ‘Fahrzeugbrief’.
   
   The German authorities would not take kindly to the suggestion that 6036 was destroyed in the early 80’s. Neither would Wolfgang Specht, Kay Hafner or its current owner.

312

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 23, 2012, 16:10:25 »

I think not.
   
   All known major repairs to chassis or body are already noted in the register (as with 6036). Likewise, the Appendix notes if a replica uses a Thames Ditton chassis in whole or in part (as with its 2003 replica). Further, all Thames Ditton register cars were originally constructed with 'original documented AC built’ chassis.
   
   The Appendix correctly notes the other replica you refer to as ‘built....(in 1979)....using some parts that were discarded when CSX 3272 was rebuilt. This car was given the chassis number CSX 3140 in 1979, but renumbered 3272 in 2005’; I don’t believe that anything needs to be added.
   
   I don’t that anything of further use or interest can be added to this ‘6036-which is the original?’ string either, and suggest it may have run its course.

313

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 20, 2012, 18:51:21 »

The Register description of these two cars (the continuous history car and the 2003 replica) appears earlier in this string. The facts are not disputed.
   
   As regards car identity (the VIN, e.g. COB 6036) the Register and most European legislative domains (including HMG, using the DVLA as its agent) operate as follows:

The use made of a discarded chassis is not relevant to (a) the identity (VIN) of the car from which it was discarded and (b) the identity of the car into which it may eventually be incorporated, if used again – see, for example, 6040, 6042, 6115/6130, 2131 etc.

Registration authorities and registrars can only act on information received. It would appear doubtful that the DVLA was advised of 6036’s existence in Germany. Were 6036 to be repatriated, the DVLA might well act as they have when other originals, having had their identity assumed elsewhere, are then repatriated.

Repairs to a car do not require the original manufacturer’s permission. Likewise, the construction of a replica (regardless of its maker or VIN) does not need any form of ‘permission’. Any manufacturer or licensee believing that rights have been infringed has remedy in civil law.

   
   If anyone wants to propose a Register change or a change to registry principles (eg vehicle categorisation) I’m very happy to hear from them.

314

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: July 06, 2012, 16:51:49 »

The Register entry for 6036, owned by Joachim von Buest, is:
   

‘Badly damaged by fire (83). Rebuilt with a new chassis and body, using the original engine and transmission and some suspension components (83). The original chassis (undamaged) and certain other components not used in the rebuild were discarded and passed to Ralph Goray in part settlement of a debt (85).’

   
   The register appendix records a replica built in 2003:
   

‘Built by Steve Grey using the original chassis of 6036, which was discarded when that car was rebuilt in 85. FIA HTP.’

   
   The ownership of 6036(Gosheron>Johnson>Thaine>Wolff>Specht>Hafner>Buest) has never been in doubt, and A-Snake’s observation that ‘Gray knew what he had (or didn't have) when it bought the pieces’ is absolutely correct.
   
   If anyone has any information to add to 6036’s register entry or the replica appendix I’d be very glad to receive it.

315

Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum / COB 6036 - which is the original?

« on: June 19, 2012, 20:15:01 »

The ACOC's classifaction criteria are available to anyone who asks (rstainer@radcothouse.co.uk).
   
   The criteria, fully described in ACtion recently, accord with International best practice, have been tested in law and are in line with DVLA regulations. I suggest that anyone keenly interested in registry practice reads, as a starting point, Martin Emmison's Car & Driver artIcle.