AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum => Topic started by: wirewheels57 on October 12, 2019, 20:26:51
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I am trying to source a new indicator self cancelling assembly mounted on the steering column of my 1964 289 , does anyone have any suggestions ? I have tried to attach some shots for reference
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You have an original Hella® switch assembly. It is very possible that the cancelling mechanism is stuck in the collapsed position. The original Hella design mechanism in Cobras is fairly fragile as compared to the very different mechanism in any version of any O.E. VW® or VW service replacement aftermarket replacement switch. Two failure modes are common to original production switches: 1) lack of lubrication. The spring operated return is not very robust. Without good lubrication the cancelling mechanism has trouble making the device return to normal position again after being tripped by the grub screw. One friend of mine found his was dusty and gritty. He carefully cleaned all the small parts, relubricated them, and the switch cancelling work fine afterwards. 2) Something is broken inside.
Shelby American use to offer a Hella® brand repair kit (“Horn Switch Repair Kit Hella 81/39”). I have no idea what the kit contained. The only person that I know of that ever had a kit had two that he bought from Shelby’s stock decades ago and they have long since been used. Years ago I asked obsolete parts dealers on multiple continents if they had any of those kits and I never found one. I would like to know what the kit contained, did it have horn and turn signal parts or just the horn leaf switch which is also not very robust as originally made.
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3253/D_Mountjoy_Hella_switch_March_2019_1_.jpg)
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3253/medium/Turn_Signal_Cancelling.jpg)
Original switches not in their late Cobra or early 427 Cobra in any condition are extremely rare now.
I suggest inspection of the mechanism. If intact, carefully clean it and relubricate it.
Your signal operating lever is taped up. Is it broken? Broken levers are not rare as they are fragile. There are people that can do welding repairs on broken zinc die castings. These switches are too rare to discard during restorations just because the lever is broken.
Dan Case
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Thankyou for this information rr64
I have cleaned the mechanism and lubricated there was quite an amount of debris present . The cancellation device works fine when turning right but the stalk needs to be held in position when turning left or it just returns to neutral . Any suggestions ?
You are quite right the indicator stalk is broken but I have seen today in a previous post on this forum that Gerry of hawk cars had some back in july . If I have no luck I would appreciate the details of someone who might help .
On another related subject my original fuel tank needs replacing it will make a fine pattern , do you happen to know of a reliable supplier of such things ?
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Thank you for this information rr64
DC: You are welcome. (rr64 =Dan Case)
I have cleaned the mechanism and lubricated there was quite an amount of debris present . The cancellation device works fine when turning right but the stalk needs to be held in position when turning left or it just returns to neutral . Any suggestions ?
DC: As indicated in the picture in my post, the grub screw contacts the O.E. cancelling lever one direction only. To trip it the other direction one has to turn past it and come back. Many long time owners do just that sometime after their turns are completed one way or the other depending on which side there grub screw sits near the cancelling lever. Having the alignment of the grub screw very near the cancelling lever helps make little movement to trip it. (A similar problem can happen with some of the aftermarket replacement switches also.)
You are quite right the indicator stalk is broken but I have seen today in a previous post on this forum that Gerry of hawk cars had some back in july . If I have no luck I would appreciate the details of someone who might help .
DC: Original Hella® 51/51 assemblies are very rare not on a late Cobra or early 427 Cobra. If he has some, by all means get at least one. Otherwise the choices are used or very rare new old stock VW® production assemblies with enough wire leads to do signals and horn or aftermarket replacements for VW service. SWF® is the most common brand of VW service switch you will find. Be aware that to use any VW or aftermarket switch in an original Cobra application you may have to modify the AC Cars adapter collar, the new switch, or both to make them fit together without using a hammer to beat them together. Parts that people beat into place can be very hard to get back apart. As assembled by AC Cars everything was/is an easy slip fit.
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3253/medium/adapter_inserted.jpg)
Want more information on this subject, send me private message with your email address. There are three pages with full descriptions and illustration sketches in my electrical file for CSX2201 and later (American market) chassis in my electrical file I have available for owners and restorers. I would send you the entire file.
I would think that any community, town, or city of more than maybe 40,000 or in population would have skilled welders available. Most job shop type machine shops probably have welders in house or somebody they get on contract. They must know that they are being asked to work on a zinc die casting. They can buy filler rod for the job. To get the best results it is best to make a fixture to hold both pieces firmly and in exact alignment. For repairs of rare parts by welding I remove the finish on the parts, make a holding fixture that also allows the welder good access from multiple angles, and prepare the broken ends for fillet welds. The welder’s only function is to do the welding. Even damage to Holley® carburetor zinc die castings can be welded up and once refinished well the repair becomes invisible except via X-ray inspection. Mostly just takes lots of time.
On another related subject my original fuel tank needs replacing it will make a fine pattern , do you happen to know of a reliable supplier of such things ?
DC:
I) If originality is important to you:
A) Is the original tank repairable? The tanks in our cars leaked with fatigue fractured lead solder joints. I desoldered the offending areas and resoldered them but that is at best a temporary fix as lead sealed joints that flex any at all will fracture. After solder repairs I used the tank sealing compound Eastwood® sells. I follow their directions exactly except for every rinse stage I do two more rinses. I did the tank in our black car in the fall of 1997 and had zero issues since using all kinds of street and race fuels street or track.
B) I did drawings many years ago for a friend in want of an original specification tank. He was wanting to replace an aftermarket tank. Two brass bungs must be machined and correct rivets have to be sourced but otherwise any good sheet metal shop that can work to drawings and holotype sample pictures can fabricate a very authentic looking assembly. I would still recommend sealing it as after all lead solder joints will fracture sooner or later.
C) About once a year really nice original tanks come up for sale. Racers don’t want original tanks. One must be aware that CSX2201 and later chassis have mounts for a Stewart-Warner® fuel level sensor and not a Smiths® unit all other chassis used. Again, even if it looked perfect I would seal the inside.
II) If originality is not all that important to you:
A) There is a company in the USA that will seal an old tank inside and out with a proprietary process and materials. THE TANK WILL NOT LOOK ORIGINAL NOR WILL IT EVER AGAIN.
B) More than one parts company has available modern made fully welded tanks in either aluminum or stainless steel.
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Gerry Hawkridge can supply stainless steel tanks. His indicator switches are higher-quality VW ones (not the cheap repros), as shown in Dan's pictures. I don't think he has any with the early switchgear shown - I've never seen one of these.
On UK-market cars, the fragile horn switch Dan refers to operates the horns through a Lucas 6RA relay.
Roger
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Gerry Hawkridge can supply stainless steel tanks. His indicator switches are higher-quality VW ones (not the cheap repros), as shown in Dan's pictures. I don't think he has any with the early switchgear shown - I've never seen one of these.
On UK-market cars, the fragile horn switch Dan refers to operates the horns through a Lucas 6RA relay.
Roger
The Hella® 51/51 assemblies shown in Darrell's images (the original switch for CSX2295) and mine with the adapter collar (original to a friend’s CSX25xx chassis) are ones AC Cars installed during the chassis builds day one.
VW® new cars wise there were multiple versions of assembly line and service switches marked as complying with SAE and European standards in different time frames. I have had VW assembly line versions marked as meeting 1962, 1963, or 1964 SAE standards.
Since 1983, in my hunts and purchases of most versions of VW production, service, and aftermarket switches the only switch that mates perfectly with the collar adapter AC Cars came up with is the Hella one. Wiring gauges, color codes, and lengths are not the same either. I have used new SWF® brand replacements on three cars and wished their wires were longer. On two cars I modified the switch body to slip fit over the AC Cars adapter collar. For the last car I repaired I bought a universal one fits all adapter collar from Nick Acton. The broken switch on the car was a used VW assembly that had been forced over the adapter and collar. The marks on the parts indicated that a big hammer was used to drive everything together. After a considerable time trying to remove the switch I resorted to removing the entire steering column and taking it to the work bench. It took a large hammer to beat the offending non-stock switch off. It wasn’t an original and the stalk was broken so finishing its destruction was not a concern. I did have to do some metal work on the steering column because it had been slightly crushed when the VW switch was driven on.
When all AC factory pieces are used assembly is simple, easy, quick, and the wires are sufficiently long to comfortably mate up with the main loom behind the dash fascia.
Maybe 9 of 10 the Hella 51/51 AC Cars production switches I have come across in these decades of hunting were damaged ones removed from American market Cobras CSX2201 and later and early 427 Cobras. Over the decades I have talked with quite a few people that removed their original Hella assembly because they thought it was not working, tossed it in the trash, and replaced it with either a used VW switch or a new SWF replacement only to find out that they still had not solved their problem. (A similar situation often happened with the tail lamp relays, i.e. remove, discard, and replace only to still have a problem.)
Some of the VW or aftermarket switches have raised text on the outside of their main die casting. This raised text is a dead giveaway that the switch is not a production one for a Cobra. This text can easily be detected in use. Some owners and restorers will sand away this text carefully and repaint the switch to make it more authentic looking.
Dan
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Gerry Hawkridge can supply stainless steel tanks. His indicator switches are higher-quality VW ones (not the cheap repros), as shown in Dan's pictures. I don't think he has any with the early switchgear shown - I've never seen one of these.
On UK-market cars, the fragile horn switch Dan refers to operates the horns through a Lucas 6RA relay.
Roger
That didn't come out quite right - what I meant was that the switches Gerry sells are better quality VW ones rather than cheap repros. They are not the AC-supplied ones Dan mentions.
Roger
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I now have my Gerry Hawkridge indicator assembly installed and working well . during the process of fitting I noted the following which I hope will be of help to other installers ion the future .
A visual comparison between the two shows a few cosmetic differences . The ident numbers on the replacement are raised in what would be the upper area of the lower assembly , although they would not be particularly noticeable I decided to remove them and repaint the entire assembly gloss black apart from the horn switch which has been painted white to match my original ( The whole assembly was supplied in a rather unbecoming matt grey ) . The indicator stalk is slightly different in shape and the securing screw has a slightly different surrounding area all are acceptable to me .
The main fitting problem was encountered when the new assembly was presented to the removable journal on the steering column shaft , the diameter of this was slightly larger than the hole in the new indicator assembly , it was also noted that the original assembly located into position on this journal using a keyway type arrangement this was not present on the new assembly . Both issues were solved by making a new removable journal and with a cut to allow for compressing on to the outer shroud of the steering column and not replicating the alignment slot . The securing screw compressed the new journal on to the outer shroud , this secured the whole assembly adequately. The wiring had different colours to the original but did not present any issues
To summarise I felt very fortunate to have bought the unit from Gerry and the fitting although not straightforward was within my limited engineering experience .