AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Mk IV, Superblower, CRS and other Continuation Cars Forum => Topic started by: MkIV Lux on July 03, 2018, 15:31:16
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Urgent help needed :-\
My 1993 Mk IV with standard 302 EFI engine does not start.
Fuel pump OK - fuel available at the injection ramp
Ignition OK
Engine is cranked OK
Injectors however are DRY: injectors obviously are not commanded/steared properly or at all.
How to source the problem?
Thanks for any help
Constant
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Constant,
The Injectors need to be commanded as you say to open as they are help closed by a spring and opened by a solenoid.
Something is stopping this from happening--the ecu which controls it all is fed by various engine sensors (MAF/temp/RPM etc) so go round these looking for obvious issues (might be more relevant to poor running , not no running at all)
I would start by checking fuses to ecu/fuel related and think about swapping compatible relays (most solenoids will be working thru a relay) related to the fuel system with similar ones from the relay /fuse box if you are lucky, or purchase from the likes of Tim Green
http://www.gsparkplug.com/
You say ignition is ok--so I assume you are getting a spark at the plugs, and fuel pump is ok. Assume the fuel tank can breathe etc.
Good luck and keep us posted
Graham
nb I carry a complete set of main relays in my glove box as they are not that expensive.
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This could also be quite useful:
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/fuel-injector-test.831672/
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Hi Graham,
Many thanks for the quick response.
Besides me, a car technician has made same checks as I did before.
All fuses in fuse box and ajacent OK.
Spark at the plug OK.
Tank can breathe, fuel available at the ramp.
Relays have been changed.
Are therer any "hidden" relays in other areas than the fuse box?
Does the ECU carry a fuse or two?
Could an immobilizer (Serpico car alarm) block a solenoid from working?
Wanted to be ready to go to Le Mans Classic in the Mk IV this Thursday, but am afraid I'll have to use another British car for the trip :-\ :-\
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One thing that happened to a brooklands ace near me last year was the inertia switch (fuel trip) in the boot was triggered by a bump (its like a rollover/crash safety device) --It will be in the boot so check its not tripped. Will try to post a photo. I assume the Mkiv has one (my CRS and brooklands ace do). Its a small black plastic rectangular box with a red button most likley in top left wheel arch (NS)
Note reference to using a Noid light (basically pulses at the fuel injector in link in prev post by me (mustang forum)
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Constant,
I know you have checked the fuses, but on 9520 I have suffered two obscure electrical faults which turned out to be nothing more than poor contacts between the fuse blades and the fuse holder. Because the contact was poor i.e. resistive, all kinds of inconclusive symptoms resulted. There is nothing to lose by removing one fuse at a time,cleaning the blades and then cleaning the holders with something like a nail file. A good spray with Electric Switch Cleaner and Water Dispersant will help.
I would pay particular attention to Fuse 18, 15 amp, 'Engine Run Relay Feed.' Then check the 'Engine Run Relay' itself - Relay VI . The blades and receptacles for the relays are not much better than for the fuses. I would agree with Graham that the relays are by no means 100% reliable Of course the Fuse and Relay numbers might be different on your machine, but I think the functions will be there as they are part of the EEC IV system.
I think many functions are interlinked - when I could not start one day I happened to notice that everything on the dashboard was dead - Fuse 14 20 amp 'Dashboard - Ignition.' Obviously this affects other systems as the starter would not turn.
Finally you have probably disconnected and reconnected the multi pin connector on the EEC IV, if not nothing to lose.....
I do hope you can get the beast to behave in time for your run to le Mans
Good luck
Barrie
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Many thanks Barrie,
I did some of it but not necessarily to the extent needed. But I checked all fuses and relays also with a simple light tester and found all lines in the fuse box area were hot when required.
I'll have to go through it again with the garage shop's technician, step by step.
I'm afraid though that it will not be done by tomorrow and will have to switch to the yellow mount for going to Le Mans.
Good night for now and we'll keep digging.
Constant
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Constant
Good Luck with Diagnostics, Hopefully rectified and you travel To Le Mans Classic in the MK1V, You will be just as welcome in the yellow Lotus, or any other classic of your choice.
Give you a call later this morning.
Thank you for spotting the error in the road book , route to Chateau Grand Gaigne.
Keith
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Constant, I think I still have my old ecu around after having changed to carbs if it is any use?
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for the suggestion.
Could indeed be of use, as mine might have a problem. Keep it safe for me please.
See you at Le Mans or will give you a ring.
Constant
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Constant
Good Luck with Diagnostics, Hopefully rectified and you travel To Le Mans Classic in the MK1V, You will be just as welcome in the yellow Lotus, or any other classic of your choice.
Give you a call later this morning.
Thank you for spotting the error in the road book , route to Chateau Grand Gaigne.
Keith
Thanks Keith,
I'm afraid the Lotus will once more be the mount for the w/e.
Can't sort the MkIV trouble out, as busy day in the office is still top priority. Sources my income to enable me playing with classics :) :)
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Hi Constant
I'm probably a little late
Does the MKIV have an OBD port as part of the EEC-IV, if so have the codes been checked
Have you checked the PIP sensor (Profile Ignition Pickup) - if this has failed the injectors will not pulse. Note this is on a standard distributor
Have you checked the TPS voltage - I don't know the exact voltage for EEC-IV, but on my ECU, if it is above 1V it will not allow the injectors to pulse
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Not too late Rob,
Many thanks for the hints.
I'm off to Le Mans and will start all over again in scientific documented approach to make sure we register what works and what does not.
I'll be back here early next week probably with more questions.
Cheers
Constant
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Hi, PM sent, but I have a fault code reader for these, happy to plug it in, just a question of logistics, but we may be able to sort something out.
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Nev,
Is there any chance you can post pictures/details of your code reader. I have seem some Ford versions available in the US for reading EECIV but I have a feeling that as the EECIV cars get older folks are going to need to know how to troubleshoot and fix them/the system within the club.
Graham
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I have the unit that was used to test the cars at the factory, before they went out, it is a Ford branded Rotunda unit. Hand-held and in a case. Also I have the codes definitions etc. Etc .........
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A Ford Mustang specialist (with experience on 90's cars) in nearby Germany whom I consulted by phone told me that the ECU can only be read when engine running...
True?
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Not sure, but I can certainly test that out on mine and confirm.........
So, the ‘Star’ reader only seems to do diagnostics with engine running.
I also have a small code reader, Equus 3007, ECM Code Reader, which reads both ign on, and also with engine running, ut i am not sure if this is the right reader for these cars, it says for Ford 1981 onwards.
I have just found this thread, which may be handy?
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/how-to-pull-codes-from-eec4-in-86-95-5-0-mustangs.889006/
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The situation is currently as follows:
- after having (re)checked all electrical circuits, not being able to read the ECU though (as no corresponding program/hardware available), I had asked the garage to recheck the fuel pressure at the ramp. Fuel pressure at the ramp is crucial to command the injectors;
- ultimately they found out that at least one on the pumps is dead (previously when turning ignition key and cranking the engine, one heard the pump work, without being able to tell if all pumps work, so wrongly assuming that pumps were working; fuel was available at the ramp, but fuel pressure had not been checked); now they checked more thoroughly actually feeling the pumps while having ignition on!
- so one of the LP pumps being dead, I decided to replace the 2 LP pumps before going any further and swapping ECU's;
- in this process I found out actually that there is not only one pump, but 3 as on the attached fuel system diagram (may be incomplete).
- have ordered the pumps last Monday from www.competitionsupplies.com in Silverstone, pumps and fittings arrived Thursday and they will be mounted today.
..... so let's wait and see what it will bring
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That appears to be a strange setup
The red tops are a high flow (150lph), low pressure pump (6-8psi). Most EFI systems require 200lph+ and 40-45psi, so presumably the 3rd pump is used to boost the flow and pressure
Looks like a carburetted system that has been upgraded to EFI
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That appears to be a strange setup
The red tops are a high flow (150lph), low pressure pump (6-8psi). Most EFI systems require 200lph+ and 40-45psi, so presumably the 3rd pump is used to boost the flow and pressure
Looks like a carburetted system that has been upgraded to EFI
Hi Rob,
Maybe strange set-up but easily traceable as to its origins, as per AC Autokraft production spec sheet (which I have):
- the car is a LW chassis AKL
- had been ordered originally for a customer in the Far East (some time late 1991 early 1992); exact spec however unknown to me;
- this deal fell through (reason unknown)
- car was then assigned to a German customer which led to a number of modifications recorded on the production spec sheet: under "1st Updates required at 5th July 1992": a list of some 33 modifications starting with: "Car to be altered to meet German TÜV approval" - under these: "Fit Jaguar fuel cap assembly, update fuel pump system to three pump system" ......
- completion date of the car is 28 July 1993; production spec sheet printed on 4 August 1993.
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not even going to ask why.....
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The Mk IV is running again :) :) :) :) :) happy me!
I'll get back with a report shortly.
Many thanks to all for your precious hints, suggestions and help with hardware.
Constant
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Good morning,
I would suggest replacing all 3 pumps with a suitable single high pressure pump and add a pressure gauge on the fuel ramp and a fuel pressure regulator, as I think it's the right way to run an EFI set up with minimum headaches.
I have been running a Bosch 044 pump on a car that makes 450hp with 1200cc injectors running at 60% duty cycle, so got plenty of room left for more power and never run into fueling issues whatsoever in all possible weather conditions one could imagine (bar a hurricane).
I think that running 3 pumps is asking for troubles. It probably works but I find this particularly idiotic, especially when a single pump these days can do the same job on a relatively unstressed 302ci normally-aspirated engine.
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you might be right, TTM, but sofar my mount travelled some 78000 kms over 25 years throughout Europe (of which the first 2 owners only had covered 11.000 kms in the first 9 years of the Mk IV's life), in all weather conditions, faultlessly, never missing a beat. I was even not aware of the 3 pump system, as all had been working fine all the time. So maybe next time I'll encounter problems, I will think twice about it ...
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Mine has done 380000 km in 28 years - Your mileage may vary... pun intended ;)
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Mine has done 380000 km in 28 years - Your mileage may vary... pun intended ;)
what car is that ?
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Did I forget to mention on this thread that meanwhile the Mk IV runs, after having installed new LP pumps and exchanged the deficient ECU against a working element from a similar car. The ECU had one transistor burned on the path governing negative return to command the pump relay and the injectors. (Not sure this is correctly explained).
Need to find a replacement ECU with D3D code (programmed for a specitic application/destination market). If anyone would have such sitting around, thanks for contacting me via PM.
Thanks to all who gave me a precious hint to get to the solution of this problem.
Constant
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Constant,
This will be a problem we will all face over the coming years - Ford will not supply replacement EEC IV units for ever, maybe they already stopped ? In any event a quick look on the internet revealed a number of companies offering repairs so maybe your best move would be to investigate a repair to your failed EEC ? http://www.ecu-repairs.com/engine-ecu-repairs/ford. We should all benefit from your experience
There are, of course, alternative tuneable after market ECUs, but this is not a simple 'plug and play' swop.....
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Hi Barrie,
Indeed that is exactly what I am doing now. Get my ECU repaired. There is a local company doing such repairs and we wait to have the ECU back.
On the w/e at a local exhibition which I attended with my friend Jean (owner of an early Mk IV with Weber carbs), I ran into another local garage shop owner who works on period Mustangs and he told me he has all the equipment to reprogram theses Ford ECUs, so would be able to read-out the configuration on my original repaired ECU and copy same configuration on a replacement ECU. Possibly also alter the config.
I'll go and see him when the original is back from repair.
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Good morning,
I would suggest replacing all 3 pumps with a suitable single high pressure pump and add a pressure gauge on the fuel ramp and a fuel pressure regulator, as I think it's the right way to run an EFI set up with minimum headaches.
.......
I think that running 3 pumps is asking for troubles. It probably works but I find this particularly idiotic, especially when a single pump these days can do the same job on a relatively unstressed 302ci normally-aspirated engine.
Hi TTM,
You are defenitely right, however this would imply to modify completely the tank of my car; remember it is a flat underboot tank and unless inmerged into the tank, there is no other way to mount a HP pump low enough to get the necessary volume of petrol required. This is what is assured by the 2 LP pumps.
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This book arrived today .... and will be my favourite reading over the coming months .... should help to understand how the EFI is managed.... :) :)
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I'm on my 3rd fuel pump ... the gas in the USA siezes the pump when they sit for long periods of time ... double check the pump.
Ron