AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Ace, Aceca & Greyhound Forum => Topic started by: B.P.Bird on April 16, 2018, 16:19:11
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Ace Overriders
It may not be generally known that A.C. bought in a special pattern overrider for the early Ace. I wish I knew who the suppliers were; there is a family resemblance to the items used on the 2 litre Saloon and the contemporary Lea Francis, but neither are identical. Some 70 cars were so fitted before a change was made to buy in the different overrider being supplied for the Standard 8.
The early pattern seems to have become unavailable around AE 93 or 94 . Perhaps the supplier discontinued operations and A.C. had to look elsewhere ? Perhaps it was to accommodate the Aceca tubular bumper bars ? Although at least one Aceca (AE 504) used the early overrider. In any event it seems that when carrying out repairs the later pattern has had to be used and examples of Aces with early overriders on one end, with late overriders on the other have been found. This looks really strange.....
A project has been running in the Club to reproduce these rather good looking early overriders. The research has covered the globe from New Zealand to California to draw on the expertise we have amongst the membership. The great challenge to be overcome is to produce the tooling and this is expensive, however we now have the 3D scans and drawings, but before we take the next step of starting the production process we need to get an idea of what size of batch to put in hand. The figures below are based on 15 car sets which is guided by a survey of early cars and might well be somewhat conservative. As in all these Club projects, if it runs, there will be no guarantee that any further batches will be possible. This is the chance to get early Aces back to their original, better looking, specification. The quality of the finished overrider will be every bit as good as the original and in fact the plating is likely to be superior.
There is a scheme already running (see Keith Lessiter's advertisement in ACtion) to supply overrider brackets to suit the later cars and Keith has agreed to add the very different, early type, bracket to his offer. There is also the question of the simple spacer tubes used on the rear mounting brackets; they are identical to the later cars and can be cut from suitable aluminium tube. The fasteners required are all off the shelf 3/8” and 5/16” BSF nuts and bolts. We will publish dimensions of spacer tubes and fasteners, along with some fitting notes, at a later stage.
Individual cars will vary in their needs: There will be cars which have lost everything, cars which need only a correct bracket and every possible combination in between. This being the case it is the intention to offer the parts on a single item basis rather than in sets. However fitting one new shiny overrider alongside a 60 year old worn example might not be an ideal result – perhaps best considered in pairs ?
The projected costs for each Overrider, ready to fit, polished and triple chrome plated are dependant on batch size, exchange rates and applicable custom duties, they are likely to be in the range of £88 to £98, but only for launch customers. Later purchases, if there are any in stock, will have to be priced significantly higher.
To join the scheme as a launch customer and order overriders we will need a deposit of £45 per overrider:
First send your deposit to 'Thames Ditton Spares Ltd.' bank sort code 30-98-77 account no. 01414758. For overseas members IBAN GB50LOYD30987701414758. Use as reference your surname followed by '-ORS.' For example 'SMITH-ORS'.
If you wish to pay by cheque, made out to Thames Ditton Spares Limited,
send to:
C.T. Pearce,
Tree House,
Yopps Green,
Plaxtol,
Sevenoaks,
Kent.
TN15 0PY
UK
Secondly confirm your order to bird@oldmanse.net and if you have any technical questions please ask me.
If writing send to
B.P.Bird,
Manse of Premnay,
Kirkton,
Insch,
Aberdeenshire.
AB52 6QF
UK
Just for information, if a car has lost everything, this is the complete set of parts you would need, but remember this offer is just for the overriders and we will address the other easier items if we can get enough support for the overriders:
4 off overriders
2 off front brackets
2 off rear brackets
2 off short rear spacers
2 off long rear spacers
8 off fasteners overrider to bracket
4 off fasteners bracket to chassis, front
4 off fasteners bracket to chassis, rear
This is the best information we have on the situation with early Aces:
Those fitted with correct early style:-
AE27.
AE28.
AE32.
AE41.
AE40.
AE43.
AE64.
AE65.
AE66.
AE79.
AE83.
AE89.
Those missing overriders altogether:-
AE22.
AE25.
AE26.
AEX31.
AE35.
AE46.
AE51.
AE63.
AE86.
AE88.
AE94.
Those with incorrect (mostly Ford Prefect) overriders :-
AE29 (rear only.)
AE33.
AE34.
AE36.
AE38.
AE39.
AE42.
AE45.
AE49.
AEX54.
AEX55.
AEX61.
AE68.
AE70.
AE71.
AE72.
AE74.
AE75.
AE76 ( front only.)
AE78.
AE92.
AE93.
Attachments:
AE 40 with correct fitting
AE 65 front with correct fitting
AE 65 rear with correct fitting
AE 32 front and rear with correct fitting
Acknowledgements to the Overrider Team:
Rob Hendriks
Brian Horwood
Keith Lessiter
Barrie Bird
9th April '18
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By happy coincidence I just had a message from Dale Walmsley with a video link to his first run in AE 23 post reassembly. Apart from needing small adjustments here and there, including brake backplate clearance, as you will hear on the sound track, the dear old thing seems to be pretty sprightly. More relevant to this thread you can see some moving pictures of the correct overriders:
https://youtu.be/vFCd1ayrCT0
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Barrie.
Great to see the Early Ace Over-rider Project has been published in the May issue of ACtion pages 34 /37. Hopefully it generates sufficient interest and
orders to proceed to the next stage , that of Manufacture.
A lot of time , effort and research has gone into this project , Just needs a few ACOC Members / Early Ace Custodians to place their order/s to allow the
AC Owners Club to invest in financing this project .. :)
Barrie.. .. .. .. Can you please post update as to orders / deposits received. ?
Keith... :)
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Keith,
So far we have orders for 12 overriders and the ACtion announcement has not yet generated any interest. Perhaps we have not gone about this in the best way ?
Given the premium which has developed for matching numbers cars, to original specification, I would have thought custodians of these rare early Aces would be keen on a chance to get the appearance back to the way it was when the car left Thames Ditton. However it is a significant cost, albeit minute compared to current auction values.
Thinking back to the Candess filler cap project - which, remember, was to replicate the fifties and sixties style of cap, which differed only by the keyhole shape of the operating catch - there was in the end a big response: Custodians appreciated the chance to get back to original. This overrider project is in principal the same. Of course the audience for the filler cap was larger as it included the later Aces, Greyhounds and most Cobras.
We are far from giving up yet, but all suggestions gratefully received.......
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Barrie
Met up with Rodney Kettel ( AE49 ) at the ACOC National on Sunday 10th June, Where we caught up on Family matters then sauntered over to
Brian Howards Ace ( AE24 ) and met up with Brian, to compare the two styles of Ace rider and brackets.
Rodney Kettel supports the project, Sold on the basis the cost is small commensurate to the current market value of Aces and is sending a Bacs
payment to Chris Pearce for the deposit to secure a set of 4 correct early style Over riders, Appreciates if we do not secure sufficient orders then deposit
will be returned and project will be shelved. .. :(
Hopefully project achieves it goal, then Rodney can sell on his later style over riders to assist another custodian of a later AC Ace to help protect the
vulnerable Aluminium bodywork.
l
To make the project viable , we really need commitment for 50/60 over riders, Which equates to just 15 sets. I believe we are 20% there. :)
If you know any owner of a Early AC Ace pre AE93, Can you please draw their attention to this project and ask them to contact Barrie Bird Or
Brian Horwood.
Thanking you in anticipation...
Keith
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Latest update Keith: After ploughing through the Register contact has been made with some of the owners, although of course the Register cannot help but be out of date to a degree. Some more orders resulted and we are up to 20 overriders - 33% of the target.
There were several owners who felt their car was non original in many areas and therefore would not correct the overriders. Their prerogative of course, but it is a council of despair: The longest journey starts with the smallest step and non original cars can progress towards original specification one step at a time. As you point out each step potentially adds value.
I think your suggestion of owners of early cars contacting each other with regard to this project is very good, especially overseas. This could reach early cars which are difficult to find via the Register.
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To whom it may concern!
I would like to order some over riders for AEX 31. However when I tried to make the down payment
my bank asked for the SWIFT/BIC code as well as the name of the bank and the address...
Could anybody in the know please inform me about that?
I sincerely hope that enough orders comes in so that this very worth while project takes of.
Kind regards
Jonas
PS on a different note, I'm 99,9 % sure my car never had any rear over riders...
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AEX31.
AC Owners Club Ltd Bank details emailed to you.
Any query or problem please give me a call. tel number inc.
Keith
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An update on the project: As of today we have reached 40% of target for number ordered. However the deposits seem to be lagging a bit behind the orders, I hope they will catch up as we head towards the end of the month. Looking through the Register again there are quite a number of early Aces in the U.S. and in Canada and we need to reach those owners who may well not be A.C.O.C. Members. Perhaps the S.A.A.C. might publish a reference, or is there a better route ?
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More news on the overrider project - some new interest which we hope will turn in to deposits and, best of all, some really interesting photo's from Phil Meaney of his Ace AEX 53. He is embarked on a mission to return the car to her original form, having been modified in to a V8 configuration. Phil has ordered overriders, but as you can see from the pictures and by some miracle, the original early style mounting brackets have survived in pretty good shape. I think this demonstrates better than anything I can say how important it is to get the correct overriders back on the early Ace and how unoriginal the conversion to the Standard 8 pattern can be.
I understand a Weller A.C. straight six is in preparation and no doubt we shall hear from Phil as he progresses - he will doubtless come across a myriad of missing parts which the A.C.O.C. and Members might help with.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/9onscs4x9/AEX_53.jpg)
Above you can see how the single mount of the later overrider means they have to sit too low (too high if you use the upper mounting hole.)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/n5kqvnuod/AEX_53.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/4d8vs40v1/AEX_53.jpg)
These last two pictures shew the problem very well, although I was brought up not to stare at ladies bottoms this view is worth some study.
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Quick update - we have hit 50% of our orders target.
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Barrie
Whilst at Silverstone Classic, I had a word with Derek Wickes , His Ace AE79 has a correct pair of old style Over riders and a pair of the later style,
suggested he order a pair of the older style and sell on his incorrect pair along with the brackets.
The Council are prepared to put a few pairs in stock but really need a little more committment and orders from owners of the earlier Ace.
Any sign of increase in orders since July 4th ?
After all the time and effort in putting this project together It would be a shame to see it fail at the last hurdle. :(
Come on .........Just need a few more orders.... ;)
Keith
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Keith,
Latest update: We have orders from 9 owners which puts us over the 50% mark and with The Club supporting the project we just need to get a few more orders before going ahead. Having the identities of many of the cars missing, or having the incorrect overriders may make it possible to use the Membership list to cross reference and make direct contact. Brian Horwood is looking at this right now.
We really do need to get this project to a successful conclusion or the opportunity will be lost, perhaps for a very long time. It is becoming more and more obvious that the market sees two kinds of Aces - those with their original works specification and those which have lost it. Two recent sales of significant Aces point this up: The one with matching numbers and unmolested specification made £50K more than the one with some obvious changes. I hate to be directed by the market and of course we should regard ourselves as custodians of an old machine which can still give so much pleasure, but we are not immortal and ignoring this kind of price differential is, perhaps, ill advised.
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Latest move from Brian Horwood, who has put a a great deal of work into the project:
" I have trawled through the Register and the Members list to find another 10 members who have not responded to our notice. I have sent a letter to each of them.
The chassis numbers are: 33,38,39,45,51,55,63,71,78, and 88.
There are a number of gaps but we don’t have a system to ask owners to advise us when a car changes hand.
Fingers crossed. "
As Brian points out Registers are always out of date, sometimes by years. Not the Registrars fault, you can only record what information is sent to you. So if any Members know of early Aces please give their owners a nudge to get in contact with the Overrider Project.
Here is a picture of AE 22, the first Ace sold and also a car missing the correct overriders. I include it a) to fend off boredom and b) to illustrate how different these early Aces were. With such a packed installation the wiring will be time consuming, just getting a screwdriver on some of the terminals will be a challenge. All the more reason to get the overriders correct wouldn't you say ?
(https://s20.postimg.cc/lz7u8m42l/Main_components_installed.jpg)
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Hello overrider fans. An interesting update: We have our first order for an Aceca. The date and car number for the changeover from early to late pattern overriders is hard to establish for the Aceca. We know that early type overriders were fitted to AE 504 and there has been speculation that the change to the Standard 8 pattern was brought on by the fitment of the Aceca optional tubular bumpers. However there is a photograph of the tubular bumpers combined with the early overriders. The change to the Ace came about in late September 1955. One could conclude that the Aceca used the early pattern overrider for the first 6 months of production. Of course it is likely that cars were retrofitted with tubular bumpers if owners made such a choice so that photographic evidence will not be conclusive. If the early type overrider was used on Acecas up to the time it was discontinued on the Ace then the first 28 Aceca coupés would have been fitted with the early type - AEC 56 to AEX 525 inclusive. If the Aceca made the change earlier than the Ace then Thames Ditton would have had dual stocks of overrider patterns for a while. Anyone care to add some more speculation and Aceca pictures - did the 1954 London Motor Show Aceca have overriders for example ?
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I'm currently in the process of restoring Aceca AE503, it arrived together with a set of chromed steel tubular bumpers fitted with the later pattern overriders. After reading your helpful last post I had a closer look at the earliest photo that I have of 503 & yes, it's fitted with the earlier pattern overriders!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1862/44457461522_75123e6fbc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2aJy7rh) (https://flic.kr/p/2aJy7rh)
Therefore I'll also be ordering a set of four overriders to return the car to it's original configuration.Many thanks for your efforts in getting this project underway.
Regards, Luke.
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Luke,
That is so helpful, we can now stop speculating - early Acecas were using the early pattern overrider and the only question is when did they change to the Standard 8 pattern ? Logic would indicate that it was at the same time as the Ace, late in September 1955, perhaps after AEX 525. It also seems possible that the tubular bumpers might not have been the reason for the change ?
In any event I have pencilled in your order for four overriders, but please let Chris Pearce have your deposit - ordering instructions are at the start of this thread.
Barrie
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I’ve attached a photo of AEX521 (ex works August 27, 1955) as she arrived at the Port of Chicago in October of 1955. (btw - The photo is a press photo, and the man taking delivery of the car from the ship captain is Charles E King the first owner of my car...who also became a distributor of AC cars in Chicago) As you can see, it appears that my car was delivered with the old style over-riders (which are no longer with the car)...and dual tube bumpers. FYI - Zooming into the photo you will see that the outline of the over-riders look a bit fuzzy on one side. This is because the original press photo has been touched up with some sort of marker presumably to wipe out reflective glare from the flash photography off of the chrome bumper.
If you go to the following link, you will see photos (dated Oct 1955) of an Aceca at Thames Ditton with the later style over-riders.
http://www.johnrossmotorracingarchive.co.uk/index.php?twg_album=AC+Cars&twg_show=RB+336+-+AC+Factory+-+October+1955.jpg&twg_standalone=true#0
These two bits of information fit well to bookend the possible switchover date of September 1955 for the over-riders, as suggested by Barrie.
Another interesting thing to note is a comparison of the photo of my Aceca (AEX521) with Luke’s Aceca (AE503). It appears AE503 has a single tube bumper (vs. the dual tube bumpers on my car) and utilizes a different bracket than my car. It also appears that the over-riders on my car are held on by a bracket with a single bolt (not two like on the ACE). From what I can see of the bracket in the photo, it appears to be the same one that is currently supporting my bumper with the later style single bolt over-riders. Is it possible that there was a sub-bracket to transition from the two bolt connection to a single bolt, or maybe a sub-bracket (not visible in the picture) that went around the tubes to attach to the two bolt arrangement?
I hope this information helps to decipher the development of the over-rider/bumper arrangement on the Aceca.
Regards, John
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John,
That picture of AEX 521 is gold dust and establishes for once and for all that the changeover was not coincidental with the Aceca tubular bumpers. Looking at the picture it is not a good angle, but the part of the bracket which is visible appears to be identical to the early Ace bracket, which has two mounting holes for the early overrider. These might be spaced about right to allow the fasteners to pass above and below the tubular bumpers and then clamp the whole assembly together. The brackets at the rear must have been different to the Ace in order for the tubular bumpers to clear the extremities of the wing profile, but again I speculate, one hopes that an Aceca comes to light with unmolested early overriders and brackets so we can do some drawings.
Meanwhile with the first Aceca orders coming in we are up to 38 overriders with another few in the pipeline being discussed. Time to consider getting '521 back to correct specification John, just as in that wonderful photograph from 1955 which you are so lucky to posses.
Barrie
(https://s20.postimg.cc/fuhc8ww7h/P1020805.jpg)
Original mounting for early overrider. This one is rear, from an Ace, but the fronts are identical, except for slightly different hole centres. The distance tubes are only fitted on the rear.
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Great to learn we have potential to increase the market by including the earliest Acecas, at present we have definite orders for 38 units, ( deposits paid)
Tha ACOC have agreed to put 12 /14 or so units on the shelf ( 50/52 units) which leaves us requiring orders for the balance of 8.
I will be at the next Council meeting on Thursday 27th September, It would be nice to be in the position to procede to the next stage with this project
and confirm official order with the manafacturers.
I doubt the ACOC will place a order for a second batch as it would not be viable. Those still considering placing a order please do so as Barrie, Brian, Rob
and I have invested a lot of time and effort in this venture.
A spin off of this project/venture is a few dozen later style Ace /Aceca overriders will come on the market to satisfy the demand for those restoring later Ace
and Aceca's.
Maybe those considering placing orders can offset some of the cost by recycling their later style overriders..
I take this opportunity to thank all those who have committed and supported this venture , really appreciated
Come on , just a couple more orders and I can arrange for the ACOC Council to prepare the official order. For 60 Early style
AC Ace / Aceca overriders ..
Individuals and the ACOC Council are all volunteers working hard to help all members and Custodians in restoring and maintaining
their ACs, long may they continue and be appreciated by you supporting such ventures / projects. ;)
Keith
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Barrie,
I’m glad that the picture of my car provides the proof necessary to validate that the early style over-riders were used on the Aceca (with bumpers) up through at least AEX521...most likely through AEX525, as you speculate. I’m still deciding whether to go back to the old style over-riders or not. It’s hard to make the decision, since the current look of my car (with the latter style over-riders) is the only way I’ve know my Aceca for the last 50 years of family ownership.
I know it’s hard to tell what bracket is used in the 1955 picture of my car, but I still believe it’s the same as the one used for the latter style bumper over-rider system (since the bumper sits further from the car than what would be allowed by the use of the old style ACE over-rider bracket). In either case...based on the picture you posted showing the backside of the old style over-rider, I think it would be fairly simple to mimic the tube bumper clamping mechanism used for the latter style over-riders by simply fabricating a steel bar to span the two bolts on the backside of the over-rider and then weld a threaded stud to the bar at the midpoint of the cutaway in the over-rider. This would allow any Aceca owner with the latter style bumper/over-rider arrangement to simply swap out over-riders with no difficulty. I’ve attached a picture of the latter style over-rider and clamping mechanism for the tubular bumper so people can see what I’m talking about.
I hope this helps secure more orders to make your project viable. :)
Regards,
John
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John,
Thank you for the picture from '521 - as ever a picture is worth a thousand words. Your suggestion of how the Aceca incorporated both the early overrider and the tubular bumper must be near the truth. Maybe the brackets were made a little deeper to carry the tubular bars further from the body - this would have had to be the case at the back anyway. With the early overrider having two mounting holes, two straps between the holes could sandwich the tubes and Bob's your uncle.
As in all cases with old cars, or any other machine, you have to decide on a date related specification to adhere to. In the case of '521 she was built and shipped with the early overrider, but subsequently updated with the later type - part of her history. Always difficult to choose the date to adhere to in a car's history: Nowadays I tend to remove 'improvements' and move towards an early specification. This is easy when you consider removing a later, incorrect, Bristol engine from an early Ace, but much harder if that early Ace was converted to Bristol power and ran at Le Mans, for example AE 205......
Incidentally, whatever you decide to do about overriders, what you shew in your photograph is the correct later pattern overrider as also fitted to the Standard 8. More gold dust for later Ace owners who have had to substitute Ford Anglia items.
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Barrie
One more week before the next ACOC Council meeting, Lets hope we secure another couple of orders , so we can proceed and AC Owners Club can place official order for batch of 60 Mk1 early style over riders. ( Pre Oct 1955)
Spoke to Shaun ( AE37) who has shown interest in a pair to make up full complement. He can add them to the club stock if that helps get a step closer to our target of 60 units.
Keith
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Latest situation:
There have been deposits coming in from the owners of early Acecas and we have got the orders up to 40. I hope we can get started on production at this figure. However if and when the production is authorised by The Club the launch price will not be available. Exchange rates are beyond our control, but it looks like the additional cost of buying a set, after the launch list is closed, will be in the order of £160. I would recommend that anyone with an early Ace or Aceca, not already on the launch list, read this thread again and consider placing an order. The Council of Management will be considering the production decision this Thursday 27th September '18.
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Barrie, Brian & Rob
Congratulations !
Presented your Early Ace Over rider Project to the ACOC Council last night and been given the GREEN LIGHT to proceed to the next stage and place official order with 50% deposit.
Bare in mind that only 121 Pre October 1955 Ace and Aceca wore this style of over rider, I really cannot foresee anyone contemplating having a second batch made, The club will hold a small stock for future orders, but when this stock is sold out there will not be another batch, as it will not be viable.
You have a little time to consider whilst we await supply of sample unit for approval, then we must confirm size of order Minimum 60 units, We can increase this number , but please bare in mind, ACOC will not be producing a second batch.
In Good Old AC Style
BLOODY WELL DONE to all who have supported this venture and to make it happen. ;)
Keith
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Latest progress report: The order is in to the factory and production of a sample will follow, for our approval. Meantime there has been a modest flurry of late orders, perhaps as owners realise that a second batch is unlikely and only three car sets of the launch order remain. At this stage there is a chance to increase the order, but this window will close with production.
Someone, somewhere will be kicking themselves in years to come......
Barrie
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Latest news from Rob Hendriks. Good progress and here is a picture of the tooling;
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryNjxQPG/Tooling.jpg)
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Well that picture was certainly worth a word or two - there has been a flurry of orders and the batch is now oversold. Consideration now being given to a last minute increase in order size. This really is the last chance: There are up to 99 Aces and Acecas which used these unique pattern overriders, survival rate being high, and we have only equipped some 15 of them. That could mean that 84 cars have retained their overriders - seems unlikely. So if any cars out there,needing overriders, are not yet on the list now is the time to make contact
Barrie
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The Council of Management has authorised an increase in the order size so the late orders will be accommodated. Meantime we have some encouraging news in the form of the first test pressing. The proper engineers tell me that this looks to be to a high standard. There will be some more test pressings and then a full, plated production sample for our approval. With the increase in batch size the final price will tend to decrease, offset however by exchange rate variation......
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5QDhWms/Overrider-Test-Pressing-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpHr4yCj/Overrider-test-pressing.jpg)
Still time to get overriders ordered, but don't delay.
Barrie
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Things are moving fast. Here are prototypes with the mounts TIG welded in place. Looks good to me with no distortion or signs of heat. The plated sample is the next step.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvkrP1ps/First-Complete-Overrider-prior-to-plating.jpg)
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Progress Report … 05/01/2019
After receiving photographs of tooling, first pressing , welding of internal fixings and plating, a series of emails were exchanged regarding standards and specification took place, Resulting in a sample (Pair ?) being despatched for inspection and trial fixing by Brian Horwood to his early Ace.
I have had a pair of early style over rider brackets fabricated ( Front and rear brackets have different predrilled bolt hole centres for securing to bodywork),
These have also been despatched to Brian for inspection and trial fixing.
Once Over riders have been approved, We can increase the quantity ordered and pay final invoice , Please note the club will stock 3 sets only, So if you
are still contemplating placing your order, You have little time to join this one off venture.. As stated earlier, It will not be viable to produce a second batch.
A quick thank you to all those who have paid their deposits and supported this Venture .
Keith
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Latest information: Brian Horwood has received the first production sample and run his engineers eye over it. The pressing and general construction are assessed as being to a high standard. Some aspects of the plating are also good, but a problem with the pre-plating polishing has been identified. This is is in the area of weld penetration where the mounting plates are welded in. After plating some striations from the linishing were visible. Rob Hendriks will discuss solutions to this with the factory. The opinion of the team is that procedures to obviate the problem are not difficult.
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Latest Information: Rob Hendriks tells us that the new sample is in transit. We hope to see the plating now up to our required standard. I should express my thanks to all the overrider participants for their support and patience. Further news shortly after Brian Horwood has conducted his appraisal.
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Latest Information: Two more samples have been submitted and Brian Horwood has been looking at them very closely. We are delighted to say that a high standard has been achieved and Brian summed up his findings by saying he would be pleased to fit them to his AE 24. The Club is proceeding to order the production batch of 20 car sets and this quantity will then be fixed. If anyone contacts me with a deposit and order within the next 48 hours I will increase the order, this is however the absolute last chance.
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Production Update:
Here are the latest pictures of a batch of production overriders part way through the process.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs8yGMG3/Production-April-19-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdnJbFXF/Production-April-19.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj12FwjH/Production-April-19-3.jpg)
We are working on the suggested list of fasteners and will publish that shortly
Barrie
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They do look fantastic!
It's been an epic journey, but the results appear to justify the efforts. Can't wait to see them in chrome, and fitted to an Ace! 8)
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Hello,
Here is the latest: We have been discussing the acceptance process and the Overrider Team felt that inspection/acceptance should be carried out prior to delivery. This does mean a short increase in delivery schedule, but has so many advantages in terms of quality control that we have elected to accept the delay and small extra cost per unit, which will be accounted for in the final payment. Accordingly Rob Hendricks will be conducting the final inspection on or about June 20th.
As soon as possible after that we will do the final accounting and let you know the final payment amount. Shipment will follow thereafter.
In the interim we will be giving details of:
1) Fastener recommendations and sources
2) Mounting bracket ordering and cost information
3) Distance tubes ordering and cost information
Barrie
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Some encouraging pictures which give us optimism that the inspection/acceptance referred to above will go well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8Q2QQKZ/May-19-awaiting-inspection.jpg)
Here is the information I promised on the fasteners required, but first a word of caution: We have looked at a number of early Aces and as you might expect there is a considerable variation in fasteners. Obviously the passing years will have seen accidents, removals for racing, modifications from standard, fitment of the later type, lost fasteners from careless maintenance or simply because of the ravages of corrosion. All of this means that there will be cars which might now require longer or shorter bolts and screws. So you will need to take a careful look and spot any differences.
All the fasteners are BSF except the first item on the list. This is UNF because originally the early overriders came with square shanked captive nuts which dropped in to the rectangular mounting holes. These nuts were UNF which, at the time, was being promoted as the standard industry thread. Some of these nuts and clips have survived in early cars and they may swop over in to our reproduction overriders. The rest of us will have to make do with ordinary UNF Aerotight nuts.
8 off 5/16" UNF ¾" underhead with ½" thread
4 off 5/16" BSF 1¼" underhead with ¾" thread
4 off 5/16" BSF 2 ¾" underhead with 1" thread
8 off Aerotight nuts 5/16" UNF (unless you still have the special nuts)
8 off Aerotight nuts 5/16" BSF
16 off 5/16" plain washers
There are many suppliers of suitable fasteners and I hope experienced readers might make their own recommendations, here is a company who tell me they have the sizes, although some bolts may have to be replaced by screws:
https://www.namrick.co.uk/
With regard to early Aceca fasteners I cannot be be too helpful, we will have to await feedback from the those who are carrying out the fitment. The variations here are complicated by the tubular bumper bar situation. I am sure that the cars without single or double bumper bars will be identical on the front to the Ace. On the rear the mounting bracket is different, but might well use the same fasteners.
I have noted Aerotight shake proof nuts above, but ordinary nyloc nuts will do the job, albeit they look a bit modern. I suspect that the original works fitment might have been plain nuts with shake proof washers and there would not have been a stainless steel fastener in sight either, although I shall use stainless in the interests of longevity.
Turning to the brackets and distance tubes this is what an Ace will need:
Two off Front Brackets
Two off Rear Brackets
Two off Short Distance Tubes
Two off Long Distance Tubes
I believe the Aceca will need the specific Aceca bracket on the rear, which may be identical to the later overrider Aceca bracket and may use the front bracket where no tubular bumper bars are fitted. I hope we will get the feedback already mentioned.
These brackets and distance tubes will be available via Keith Lessiter's existing bracket scheme. Remember to specify front or rear brackets when ordering less than a full set as the mounting holes have differently spaced hole centres. As an aside I suspect that some chassis will have left the works with the mounting holes at a different spacing, all part of the charm and not a problem as the bracket holes can be elongated to suit, should anyone find hole centres which were drilled by a more artistic employee.....
Keith has the details of his scheme in the back of ACtion or you can email him:
keith.lessiter@gmail.com
Further news after the inspection is complete
Barrie Bird
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Inspection Report:
Good news and less good news. The good news is that our decision to inspect prior to delivery has turned out to be the right one. The manufacturer presented two thirds of the order for inspection and Rob Hendricks was able to pass all of them. The less good news - one third had been rejected by the manufacturers own quality control. One supposes, given the chronology of the situation, that this was as the result of the pressure applied by having to submit to our inspection. Whatever it does reflect some credit on those involved in that they are determined to achieve a first class job and had the courage to reject some overriders. The rejected one third are being replaced asap and obviously not at our cost.
Rob did make one observation, which equally applies to the original overriders: The polishing and plating process is not as robust on the backside of the overrider as it is on the front. This is simply a product of the concave surface and the shielding effect of the mounting plates. He suggests that, before fitting, a clear protective lacquer might be applied to the rear surface.
As to timing we faced a decision on shipping the approved batch immediately, or waiting for the complete order. Given the time scale of this kind of project we have decided to make one shipment when all is complete rather than accept the cost of two shipments, two customs clearances, two agents fees and so on. I can only say thank you for your patience and point out that making only one shipment will minimise your final costs.
Barrie
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Up to date information: The production is now complete and we have instructed agents to get the consignment air freighted to London.This should be achieved very shortly and we will then work out the final costings and let everyone know the balance of their remittance and their postal/freight costs for delivery to their address.
Always unwise to allow excessive optimism to overcome wise caution - but we do seem to be approaching the end of this particular saga
Barrie
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Our overriders have now been delivered to the A.C.O.C. and I will shortly be sending out requests for final payments and destination addresses. Just sit tight til you get my email
Barrie
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SWIFT/BIC: LOYDGB21126
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First batch has been posted today. As payments are cleared further batches will be posted. A 16 month wait, but nearly at the end now, as ever thanks for your patience
Barrie
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A picture's worth a thousand words: This is what was delivered to me just now. Brian is working down the list and further batches are going in the post - thank you Brian.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yx8V3Hsw/Overriders-Delivered-001.jpg)
You can clearly see how different the early overrider is compared to the more common later type
(https://i.postimg.cc/4y2XzS3n/Overriders-Delivered-002.jpg)
I am, of course, biased, but the quality of these is so good it makes the long wait worthwhile. Another pleasant surprise is the below budget final price, especially given the small batch size.
I do hope we can get some feedback from those fitting these overriders to their early Aces/Acecas. It will be a while before mine will be going on AE 22, although that moment is getting closer thanks to Steve Gray and his team at A.C. Heritage:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2cPmYWK/IMG-2360.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCzrsHwD/IMG-2356.jpg)
Something of a miracle given how badly the poor old body had been knocked about, Steve reckons they have rescued about 85% of the original alloy:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtd4zT8S/AE22-Original-Body-013.jpg)
Barrie
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See here for some much needed photographic evidence of Aceca fitment of the correct early overrider:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1955-ac-aceca/
The full post is on this Ace, Aceca & Greyhound Forum. If you follow the link you can see several pictures clearly shewing the rear brackets which, as we guessed, look the same as the later cars used. That is to say the later Aceca continued to use the same rear mounting bracket when the Standard 8 overrider was introduced. The front overriders, missing on '502, but available from the A.C.O.C., would use the same bracket as the Ace. This Aceca not having the complication of tubular bumpers.
This does mean that fitment of the correct overriders for owners of the early Aceca becomes a lot easier and clearer. I think Keith Lessiter's overrider bracket scheme can supply the correct rear Aceca bracket.
Let's hope the new owner of '502 gets the front back to original
Barrie
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Across the finishing line. The last overriders should now have reached the launch customers and I hope they are all as pleased with the product as the Overrider Team are: It has taken a while to get everything organised, but actually this project has been pretty quick compared with many a saga to reproduce old parts.
Any owners of early Ace or Aceca who missed the opportunity to be a launch customer can still obtain overriders from the A.C.O.C. However the stock is very small. Keith Lessiter is now sending out overrider mounting brackets which are correct for the early cars, see his advertisement in ACtion for contact details.
I hope we see some photographs of early cars looking good with their original overriders.
It just remains to thank all those who made this possible, I shall not list the names for fear of omitting someone, but just note that there were many Members from California to New Zealand who put a great deal of effort in to make this happen.
The question has been asked, "Where next." Well we are thinking about it and if something can be done about other difficult to find items maybe another project will launch.....
Barrie
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Early Overriders Project - Epilogue
Having just attached the early overriders to AE22 I thought I should pass on a couple of amendments to the fasteners previously listed and give some suggestions about fitting.
As '22 had lost all the overriders and mounting brackets I have had to start with a clean sheet. The effort has been more than worthwhile. Well done A.C.O.C.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzhVTdMQ/Overrider-Fitted.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsgC3yTR/Overriders-complete-rear.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dfcg86Gf/Overriders-complete-front.jpg)
As previously noted by various recipients the early type replica overriders are very nicely made and are spot on in shape and size. For mounting brackets I ordered two rear and two front from Keith Lessiter. They fitted well after a little easing of mounting holes with a round file. As Keith suggests the brackets are self finished so a little bit of fettling, with a file and some emery cloth, before painting, is best.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq6z4Yt2/Fasteners-2.jpg)
There is a question of what colour the brackets should be painted and I believe they were mostly painted with the same black paint used on the chassis. However there are examples of brackets painted to match the coachwork. Possibly, like almost everything else at Thames Ditton, it could have been customer choice. As you see above I decided on the matching route for '22. The picture shews the other fasteners required on the rear and reading from left to right we have: The overrider with 5/16" UNF captive nuts fitted, two plain 5/16" washers, two 5/16" UNF hex head screws, two 5/16" BSF Aerotight nuts, two plain 5/16"washers, the rear mounting bracket, one short and one long distance tube, two 5/16" BSF hex head bolts - one 2 3/4" underhead and one 2 1/4" underhead.
The original overrider was fitted with 5/16" UNF captive nuts which made fitting to the brackets really simple and quick. I have tried to find out what nuts were fitted to the square holes in the mounting plates: It seems they were a 'cage nut' which is a square nut enclosed in a loosely fitting square cage which has a spring clip on two sides. This is pushed in to the square hole til the spring clips come through the hole and open out to retain the cage and the nut in place. These are still made and are not expensive. However they are designed to clip into thin sheet metal and will not grip the thicker mounting plates of the overriders. It is simply a matter of finding the clips, designed for thicker metal, which I failed to do: More research required. Fortunately there is an alternative form which has 'wings' on two sides instead of clips and these are easily pop riveted in place.
No great accuracy is required as the nuts are a floppy fit in the cage and allow for a good deal of movement. This is ideal for final alignment of the overrider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzB3RtMq/Cage-Nut-TR-2-3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZ0s1xCS/TR-type-cage-nuts-fitted.jpg)
As the picture shews I did spot face the pop rivet holes so that the bracket would mount flush to the overrider plates, but a simple countersink would do as well
The rear fitment is a little more of a fiddle than the front as there are distance tubes involved and the bracket mounting holes are almost in line which means that there is not much space between the heads of the bracket to overrider screws and the nuts for the bracket to chassis bolts. The distance tubes fit with the short one uppermost. Looking at the distance tube arrangement it will appear that the tubes should be chamfered to match the angle of the chassis mounting plate which slopes so that the top is further aft than the bottom. However, having discussed this with David Sanderson, it seems that Thames Ditton left the ends of the distance tubes simply parted off. This means that the distance tubes slope slightly down as they exit through the bodywork. It looks instinctively wrong, but as the bolts are tightened it all comes in to alignment and of course the original holes in the body must have been cut with this in mind.
One useful suggestion I found was to leave all the fasteners loose til everything was in place and aligned. Then tighten the two nuts and bolts and two screws, on each overrider, in step, a little at a time, checking the alignment as you proceed.
As always a picture is worth a great deal more than my droning on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNzmTWP2/Overrider-Fitted-2.jpg)
Note how close the Aerotight BSF nuts are to the UNF screw heads
Once you have mounted the rear overriders you will find the fronts much more straightforward: There are no distance tubes to fit and the bracket to chassis holes do not line up with the bracket to overrider holes, so that getting the Aerotight nuts in place is much easier.
Here is the revised list of the fasteners you will require to do a complete Ace, a little changed from the original list:
8 off 5/16" UNF screws 3/4" underhead Hex head (overrider to bracket)
4 off 5/16" BSF bolts 1 1/4" underhead with 3/4" thread Hex head (bracket to chassis front)
2 off 5/16" BSF bolts 2 3/4" underhead with 1" thread Hex head (bracket to chassis rear)
2 off 5/16" BSF bolts 2 1/4" underhead with 1" thread Hex head (bracket to chassis rear)
8 off 5/16" BSF Aerotight nuts
16 off 5/16" Plain washers
8 off 5/16" UNF cage nuts and cages
Stainless Fastener Sources: Mike Peters at Surplus Supplies www.polished-stainless.com 01636 636735 surplusmpeters@aol.com
Westfield Fasteners www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk 01844 201133 enquiries@westfieldfasteners.co.uk.
For the cage nuts go to Revington TR www.revingtontr.com 01823 698437 info@revingtontr.com
The part numbers for the cage nuts are: Nut RTR5136 and Cage RTR5135.
Being specials for TR 2/3 floor panels these last are unfortunately expensive compared to the other fasteners, but they do make a good job of mounting the overriders.
Barrie Bird
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Barrie,
Thanks for posting and may I say that 22 looks very nice indeed. An overrider question that I have been wondering about for years is if my car AEX 31 ever had any overriders fitted from new,since when restoring the car, no real traces was found.
Now 67 years after the car made its way to Sweden I was fortunate enough to get ahold of some images from the first owners son, now himself in his mid 70’s.
The images clearly shows that there weren’t any overriders fitted the first summer of 31’s life. One of the images shows the car with Swedish import plates, something that it only would have had for the first week or so.
Interesting no?
Jonas
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J,
Very interesting. Just goes to shew what variations exist on these early Aces. I cannot think of any reason why A.C. would have left the overriders off or any reason why the first owner would have either ordered the Ace without overriders or removed them after delivery. The most common reason for not having overriders was competition - why carry the unproductive weight ? Is there any evidence from the first owner's son that the car was raced or rallied, or that was the intention when '31 was ordered ? Your photographs do seem to shew a mounting bolt at the front, but no evidence of the mounting holes for the distance tubes at the rear. Of course there should have been mountings of some sort, regardless of the overrider question, as both the front and rear mountings also tie the body to the chassis.
Something new every day in the world of old A.C.s.....
B
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Barrie,
Yes the early cars do seem to have a number of idiosyncrasies. I don’t think 31 ever had any front overriders, merely that bolts where fitted on the front, just like you pointed out.
One of the images must be from the first couple of weeks of the cars existence here in Sweden.
As far as I have been able to find out 31 never did any racing. I spoke to the sun today and he had no memory at all of any racing. Interestingly enough AE 25, that did have overriders both from and rear, was raced for a number of years in both Sweden and Denmark!
Jonas
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Speaking of overriders. I own BEX389. I am looking for a set of 4 overider brackets as mine appear too far out. Can anyone help?
Best Regards,
Simon DGB
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Simon.
The over rider brackets you have at present are to secure the over rider and accommodate twin tube bumpers.
Fire me an email and I can supply you with set of four new correct over rider brackets, just need fine fettling prior to painting.
Reference regular advert in ACtion Magazine.
Keith
Keith.lessiter at gmail dot com
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Speaking of overriders. I own BEX389. I am looking for a set of 4 overider brackets as mine appear too far out. Can anyone help?
Best Regards,
Simon DGB
BEX389 Seems a very nice unrestored example!
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Yes, it’s a lovely car and my first Ac. I could have bought one in 1990 for £14,000 but I was £13,950 short at the time.
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Barrie,
I have just obtained a set of over-riders for AE-71 which I bought last year.
Could you give me the dimensions, length and external diameter of the two mounting tubes please.
Thanks
Nigel