AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Classicus on September 17, 2007, 19:00:58
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Referring to the latest interesting posting and intriguing picture of MA 200 the AC V8 prototype in "AC Librarian/Historian" (top pic below) over on the "General Forum"....
As MA 200 (as a convertible) was apparently up and running in 1963 whilst the Mistrale Coupe was first shown in November 1963 and the Spyder introduced in the Spring of 1964, each already starting to get quite close to the outline of the 428, it's starting to make me wonder who might have thought of the final 428 design itself first ? Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ? Either way I think it's a fascinating backdrop and comparison with all 3 cars !! [8D]
The Maserati Mistrale coupe....
"....originally named the 'Due Posti', was first shown in a preview at the Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile di Torino in November 1963."
"....for delivery Maserati's anxious customers had to wait until the spring of 1964 when the Spyder version was introduced at the Salone di Ginevra. Again the work of Frua who with great skill succeeded in retaining the splendid lines of the coupé by replacing the large windowed 'hatchback' with a classically styled conventional boot lid, the hood being hinged immediately behind the front passengers."
Reference:
http://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri56.htm
AC MA 200
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/V8PrototypeMA200.jpg)
AC 428
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200MistraleSpyderAC428comparisons.jpg)
Maserati Mistrale Spyder
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MaseratiMistraleSpyder.jpg)
AC 428
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200MistraleSpyderAC428comparisons.jpg)
Maserati Mistrale Spyder picture and details :
http://www.thecarnut.com/Mistralspyder68.html
http://www.thecarnut.com/Mistralspyder68/IMG_0904.JPG
AC MA 200
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/V8PrototypeMA200.jpg)
Maserati Mistrale Spyder
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MaseratiMistraleSpyder.jpg)
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Everyone thinks MA 200 was done by Frua, and all are surprised to see it was done in house by AC! I have drawings back to August 1962... maybe we have the first stolen plans scandal ala Mcclaren/Ferrari!
ps, classico, how'd you post those pics?
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quote:
Everyone thinks MA 200 was done by Frua, and all are surprised to see it was done in house by AC! I have drawings back to August 1962... maybe we have the first stolen plans scandal ala Mcclaren/Ferrari !
Hi Mark
Interesting people thinking MA 200 was designed by Frua as ever since I spoke to Jeremy and saw it for the first time at Goodwood parked amongst all the other AC's, I'd always assumed that it had been the prototype for the 428 anyway. I certainly didn't come away from the Sprint with the impression that it wasn't so I think it's quite fair to say that all possible influences on the design origins of the 428 still remain to be discovered. Naturally it would be very nice indeed to learn at the end that the 428 definitely began its life at Thames Ditton and not elsewhere !
Any idea who penned the drawings in 1962 as it would therefore be interesting to learn if there are any other photos and drawings of his or their work in the Forties/ Fifties and so on? Whether perhaps he/ they had had other work displayed at international exhibitions ? And it's because of all these unknowns that I've always wished there'd been a book devoted solely to the 428 with all its history in the same way as the Cobra. Perhaps with all your accumulating and very detailed useful material plus the actual car itself it might still be a possibility one day ?
Look forward to seeing how the restoration goes so hope you can follow the below ok.
Cass (Paul actually but there's another Paul too so Cass is easier [:)])
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Pic 1.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Photobucketexplanation.jpg)
When in Photobucket, after first clicking on "Edit" on the top line above the pic, if you then click on "resize" on the top line as above in Pic 1. you can choose the size of pic you want to appear. However the size you've already chosen 800 x 522 is already a good one for the Forum, but if you decide to go any smaller you're then stuck with that size as it won't enlarge again. Which means you then have to upload it once more from your hard drive.
Pic 2.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Photobucketexplanation1.jpg)
In your original message you posted across the coding in the top box above "Share URL", instead of the one in the bottom box "IMG Code - Forums & Bulletin Boards", IMG standing for Image.
It's also important to remember you must always copy all of the coding exactly as it appears in Photobucket's bottom box before posting it into the Forum's message box. If not as in the example below only the text will appear. In this example however I've deliberately altered all the way down the first bracket around the first word IMG from [ to ( so that it can be read instead. Obviously these first incorrect brackets must first be put back before any pics will appear as the slightest alteration or mistake anywhere will always continue to show the text and nothing else. Also leaving a small space between each line does make for a better layout at the end.
Finally best to click on Preview (as many times as you need) to check and adjust the selected pics and messages are all ok etc. before posting.
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AC MA 200
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/V8PrototypeMA200.jpg[/img]
AC 428
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200MistraleSpyderAC428comparisons.jpg[/img]
Maserati Mistrale Spyder
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MaseratiMistraleSpyder.jpg[/img]
AC 428
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200MistraleSpyderAC428comparisons.jpg[/img]
Maserati Mistrale Spyder picture and details :
http://www.thecarnut.com/Mistralspyder68.html
http://www.thecarnut.com/Mistralspyder68/IMG_0904.JPG
AC MA 200
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/V8PrototypeMA200.jpg[/img]
Maserati Mistrale Spyder
(IMG]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MaseratiMistraleSpyder.jpg[/img]
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Bringing the two sub forums of MA 200 closer together for future reference.
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Maserati Mistral Spyder have gone up quite a bit in recent months, upward to $200Gs'. I don't have to say anymore about what it means for the Frua Spyder.
Emmanuel[:)]
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she's coming along...thanks to jason and the boys at Creative Workshop,
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/ma-inside-1.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Maserati Mistral Spyder have gone up quite a bit in recent months, upward to $200Gs'. I don't have to say anymore about what it means for the Frua Spyder.
Emmanuel[:)]
At the Monaco Historic Bonhams Auction this month, this Mistral (clik pic) sold for €238,500.(Euro)
(http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/gallery/thumbs/12068.jpg) (http://"http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery.php?num=12068")
Nice.
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The perfect Automobile for a Gentleman such as myself - I want that, even if it drives like a bag of old bolts....
It even looks like a bargain when you note that some comedian paid around £120,000 for a VW Schwimmwagen. World's gone mad I tell you.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Maserati Mistral Spyder have gone up quite a bit in recent months, upward to $200Gs'. I don't have to say anymore about what it means for the Frua Spyder.
Emmanuel[:)]
At the Monaco Historic Bonhams Auction this month, this Mistral (clik pic) sold for ?238,500.(Euro)
(http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/gallery/thumbs/12068.jpg) (http://"http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery.php?num=12068")
Nice.
Thanks Nik interesting find. Is this a big jump as I've no idea what they used to be ?
Paul
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My friends here in California sold one for @ $130K 2 to 3 years ago! It was a very nice car.
Emmanuel
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The new Shelby world registry is out with a chapter on MA 200
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/Registry-1.jpg)
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/Registry-2.jpg)
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Hi Mark
OK to put this onto the Register as well ?
Thanks
Paul
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Not mine to say yes or no, I've got no problem with it!
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Nice article, Mark and seems to add a bit more detail to the overall specification of this car. I noticed a couple of additional pictures I've never seen before, specifically the head on shot of the front end, and the engine compartment shot.
I assume they're from your archive. Would it be possible to post them on this thread, or your Photobucket page? I'd love to add the front end shot to my desktop.
Speaking of pictures, I've also noticed that The Creative Workshop website adds photos of the restoration from time to time. How's the project coming along? Still in the bare metal stage?
Did you ever track down those Fiat taillights you were looking for?
Have any other parts been difficult to identify?
If you do have a tough time sourcing the proprietary parts, you know where to come, right?
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Hi all:
It's been a while.
I kept checking back from time to time to see if there were any updates on Mark's restoration of MA200, but there haven't been any for some time, and least that I've seen.
However, a quick check, tonight, at the resto shop's site shows that the project is finally done. MA200 is back on the street, and it's gorgeous.
Go to www.thecreativeworkshop.com for tons of pics from it's birth in 1963 to the finished restoration.
Nice job, Mark. She's a beauty.
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Nice car and interesting article. However, I have a problem with the notion that AC may have considered the Cobra not their own when the design of the small block Cobra was 98% AC ACE. Yes the rear differential now was no longer an integral part of the chassis like on the ACE but the rest of the car was the same. Even the Cobra front mouth, which is often attributed to Shelby was an AC design which came about with the installation of the Ford Zephyr engine. Also, the cars sold in England (COB Cars) were not designated as Cobras either so I do not agree with the premise that AC did not consider the Tojeiro cars as theirs. I also have a problem with the premise that the original Tojeiro chassis was antiquated in the early 60's when most cars on the road still had solid axles and drum brakes. Also, the Corvette Sting Ray which appeared in 1963 and whose chassis remained unchanged until 1982 used a very similar design with a less advanced design made of rectangular tubing which is less rigid and a cheaper alternative to round tubing. The big block coil over chassis came about because Shelby wanted to use a bigger engine for racing and the original design when fitted with the 390 FE engine was nearly un-drivable. The car was nick named the turd by it's drivers.
Emmanuel [;)]
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Purely for the record I think I'm right in saying that Derek Hurlock used the following three cars between very approximately 1963 and the mid eighties as his personal transport.
1. MA 200: (1963 – 1968)
2. CF 63: (1971/72 – 1983). Also Factory demonstrator.
3. "CF 81": (1982 – mid eighties). The pop-up headlights prototype.
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Also 3000ME #115 until it was burned out in an engine bay fire in November 1982. Apparently one of the slightly iffy AC oil cooler pipe connections failed and sprayed hot oil over the turbocharger.
What about the 428 (or 429) 4 seater saloon prototype?
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Thanks for the additional info about the 3000 ME which I didn't know. I've often wondered about the 4 seater but other than what's on the Register I've no idea so any further info would be very interesting. Especially any pics. Did he ever own any Cobras ?
Talking of which wouldn't it be historically interesting as well as a further tribute to eventually open a new thread somewhere on the forum with pics of him with all the cars he owned and drove anyway....? Perhaps his brother as well ?
For starters and one of my top favourite pics....[8D]
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200PrototypewithDerekHurlock.jpg)
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And another....[8D]
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/DerekHurlock.jpg)
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The factory retained the 1959 prototype Greyhound 8LPA, this car was used regularly by Derek Hurlock during its early years and didn't find its first owner until 1980. When Derek sold the car to my Father he commented that it should be able to find its own way to Geneva given the number of of times he'd driven it there.
Also of relevance regarding previous comment is that the early Cobras used an upturned Greyhound Grill. These grills were used on the Greyhound untill production ceased in 1963 to make way for the Cobra.
See pic of a rare left hand drive car on the link below.
http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/103792,11088/1959-AC-Greyhound_photo.aspx
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quote:
When Derek sold the car to my Father he commented that it should be able to find its own way to Geneva given the number of of times he'd driven it there.
Very interesting thanks. Only a supposition but it does in turn increase the likelihood that he could have easily driven MA 200 a few hundred kilometres further on from Geneva as well to show to Frua as a possible prototype for the 428, who was in or near Turin I think.
Also recently found a Frua design with some interesting history for a Rolls-Royce Phantom VI 1971/73 which places it right in the middle of the AC 428 production run itself. No wonder the rear end treatment looks familar !
http://www.rrab.com/frua1.htm
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus...Also recently found a Frua design with some interesting history for a Rolls-Royce Phantom VI...
Can`t get over just how like a certain 'other' Rolls Royce the Frua looks![:D]
(http://www.rrab.com/coachb/frua2.jpg)
(http://www.carpictures.com/media/images/640/04G87572940715A.jpeg)
Caricature-esque features & extra set of wheels excepted![;)]
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MA200 Issues
It is very good indeed to see the restoration of MA200, the underpinnings of which looked, in 2006, to be near the point where serious attention was needed if the car was to remain roadworthy.
There has long been much conjecture surrounding this car, and AC's intentions. The following are the facts as I understand them, with some additional personal analysis.
The car is recorded in the AC Factory Production Ledger as 'AC Drophead 289 V8 Ford Engine' with chassis number MA200. The chassis and suspension design is, to all intents, unique (see below). The final drive and inboard rear brakes look similar to the first Cobra, and the windscreen is thought to be from a Jaguar E-Type.
According to early owner Jeremy Davidson, the car's first engine was a Ford V8 260 (as per the first 75 Cobras?) and the second a High Performance Programme 289 unit donated by Ford in exchange for services rendered (presumably the concurrent Cobra programme?). In point of fact, the MA200 engine number shown on the Chassis Plate, and in the Production Ledger, is consistent with the numbers on the Hypo 289 engines that AC imported directly from Ford and fitted to production leaf-spring Cobras, for Europe, in late 1963/early 1964.
The greatest conjecture surrounded the intention or otherwise to fit ACs embrionic Flat-6 engine to MA200. On one hand, Chief Designer ZT Marczewski always insisted that was the case. As late as 1984, and long after he had left AC Cars, Marczewski produced a side elevation drawing showing such an engine fitted in a Coupe version of MA 200. Whilst that was some 21 years after MA200 was first registered, a note on the drawing suggests the origins of that design date back to April 1963. Intriguingly, the rocker-arm front suspension of MA200 is similar to that fitted to one AC Greyhound, which had an experimental AC Flat-6 engine in 1961.
On the other hand, according to Jeremy Davidson, Derek Hurlock equally insisted the idea of fitting a boxer engine was dropped very early in the Project. But, does that not imply the idea was given some thought?
Further more conclusive evidence emerged circa 1986, when Jeremy reported he had carefully measured MA200 and a Flat 6 engine. This proved beyond doubt that, with the car in its finished form, a Flat-6 would not fit in MA200's engine bay - by a substantial margin.
On this engine issue my own view is that, up to about 1961, it would have been entirely logical for AC to consider fitting the boxer engine to any new model. With over 12 years development work under their belt, on both 4- and 6- cyl versions, AC had invested heavily in the programme, which was close to entering production. It is well known too that AC were looking for their next generation car design, and new engine(s) to replace the obsolete AC and Bristol units. The extent to which the boxer was considered for MA200 probably depends on when that car's design work started and, as we now know, things rapidly took a quite different turn when, in 1961, Carroll Shelby knocked on AC's door!
Regarding MA200 styling, the recent comment in the Forum re the relationship to the AC428/Frua is the first time I have seen such a direct connection made. Post WWII the manufacture of all body panelling for AC's was contracted out, that for MA200 being formed by Brownlows. I can find no evidence of the identity of the MA200 body stylist - from 1930 AC used both in-house and contracted people. Regarding any design transfer to Frua, intriguing as it might seem, given Frua's then resources, reputation, and track record it does seem unlikely.
Turning now to the production potential of MA200, in terms of a target market the concept is undoubtedly much closer to the 428 than to the Cobra. It is hard to imagine that AC's Directors committed all the resource and expense of designing and building MA200 without having some longer term intention in mind. So, what happened? Available evidence suggests events unfolded something along the following lines.
With the arrival of Carroll Shelby in 1961, the resultant Cobra programme soon completely dominated car work at Thames Ditton, with production of every other AC car model suspended. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume the Board would still have had one eye on developing the next model line.
At some stage - some evidence suggests as late as mid-1964 - a decision was made to shelve the expensive and still quite high risk boxer engine programme. Given the then recent success of the Ace 2.6 and Cobra, it made sense to instead adopt much cheaper and proven bought-in engines across any future AC model range.
Undoubtedly, the MA200 design was signed off with a V8 engine. This would have certainly been no later than early 1963 in order to complete the car in the autumn of 1963, and probably well before. In those days, and subject to a Board decision to proceed in late 1963, production could have been underway by mid to late 1964.
But, by late 1963, demand for the Cobra was so high that, even had it been AC's original intention, there was no possibility of putting MA200 into full production in parallel. Two years later, in 1965, when the first signs of falling demand for the Cobra would have been evident, the new Cobra 427/AC 289 coil spring chassis had been fully developed and in production for some time. This hugely capable chassis (by 1965 standards) was a tremendous legacy from the Cobra programme, and it was quite logical for AC to adapt it for the underpinnings of their next model. The AC428 was the outcome, and had there been any lingering thoughts of putting MA200 into production they would surely have died for good at that point.
For anyone interested, ACtion Archive of August 2006 featured MA200 in some detail, including road impressions from the passenger seat!
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Further to the posts above, other post-WWII cars regularly used by Derek Hurlock include:
a. Two-Litre Saloon OPG192 (EL1434), the works development car later fitted with IFS;
b.Greyhound Reg 222VPA, Chassis FE2583, fitted with an experimental AC Flat-6 engine. The front suspension on this car has top rocker arms and inboard springs (similar in concept to the 1962 Lotus 25 F1 car), a design also fitted to MA200. This Greyhound was later fitted with a Ford 2.6 6 cyl engine by the factory, before sale.
c. Derek was also regularly seen in the '4-seat Frua' reg TPE 130M. Being of monocoque construction this car is structurally quite different to the 428 and at one stage had deDion rear suspension.
It is also possible that Derek regularly used AC Cobra COB 6005; reg APA 6B. This car is recorded as being in Company ownership for almost 2 years. Similarly AC 289 Sports COB 6106 reg KPD 150C, which often featured in period motoring articles.
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Thank you ACOCArch, very informative indeed especially about the 4 seater prototype.
quote:
.... and it is hard to imagine that AC committed to all the trouble and expense of designing and building such a car without some longer term intention in mind.
Perhaps lending some substance to the occasional remark that the 428 was Derek's favourite car ?
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Does anybody know where the 4 seat prototype is now ?
Love to see some recent photos .
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It's owned by a couple of ACOC members who are restoring it as a long-term project.
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quote:
Originally posted by administrator
It's owned by a couple of ACOC members who are restoring it as a long-term project.
It is planned to do a further Archive article when the owners are happy to have the car photographed - hopefully in the next 12 months.
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quote:
Regarding any design transfer to Frua, intriguing as it might seem, given Frua's then resources, reputation, and track record it does seem unlikely.
Always a possibility of course, but perhaps there might be one or two other hypothetical yet intriguing design scenarios involved in there as well ?
The reason I first became interested in all this to begin with were the 2 original design drawings that appeared in the long Forum thread back on the 19th September 2007 (link at bottom, scroll well down). Can't remember now but I think the current owner of MA 200 (Mark) also said at the time he in fact owns this first (?) rough drawing of the prototype MA 200 below as well, and which I gathered was produced by the AC factory itself in 1962 (?)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-ACFactoryfirstdrawin.jpg)
Whilst obviously all the following must remain unfortunately hypothetical nonetheless I've often wondered ever since this interesting thread appeared, whether Frua might have in fact known well in advance, perhaps via Hubert Pathey AC's agent (?) in Switzerland as well as the European trade grapevine generally, not only how personally involved and serious Derek and the Board had been up until then (10 years ?) "for their next generation car design", but that AC might perhaps in addition also be thinking of an eventual "large" production run as well ? (150 initially ?).
In which case and perhaps set against still more small one-offs as with the frustrating Rolls Royce project etc., Frua might well have already been in a very accomodating mood to go along with whatever designs Derek eventually did propose, especially if Derek had in fact taken MA 200 to Turin for him to see personally. As to whether this makes Derek or his design stylist the original designers of the 428 or Pietro Frua will certainly be very interesting to discover one day, though it does leave you slightly wondering if interpreters were ever used for the 428 in the end !
http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=641&whichpage=1
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It would be very interesting to see a hard copy of the MA200 styling sketch, and indeed to see if it had any AC Drawing Office markings, a date or signature.
With so little hard material available it is difficult to determine precise time-lines. Dealing firstly with MA200, one account puts completion much earlier in 1963, with the car accumulating a substantial mileage on trade plates. Circumstantially, and no more than that, this account is consistent with Jeremy Davidsons statement that the car originally had a 260 Ford V8 - the engine recorded in November 1963 and on the chassis plate is a 289 - and also by the style of the Factory Ledger entry, which notes purchase tax having been paid. This would usually only be recorded when a car was registered after some road use.
Regarding the connections with Frua, and with the Maserati Mistrale, the few accounts I have seen all suggest the following time line:
a. Special bodied Maserati Coupe by Frua - displayed at 1963 Turin Show
b. Derek Hurlock introduced to Frua by Hubert Patthey - early 1965
c. Preliminary design sketch to AC - followed quickly
d. First AC chassis to Turin - May 1965
e. First car (an aluminium bodied convertible then called the AC427) at November 1965 London Show.
John McLellan also records that, according to Derek Hurlock, there were no body panel design drawings for the AC428 at Frua, just the body bucks. Given the speed at which they produced the AC styling sketches and the first car, that does make one ask whether Frua utilised the Mistrale items in some way for the AC428.
Whilst one cannot on this basis entirely dismiss the possibility of an AC influence on the Mistrale design, it does in my view look pretty unlikely.
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Unfortunately I don't have any contact details for Mark for the hard copy, but there's still this original link below in the same thread to Mark's photobucket site which has some more interesting pics and info.
http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/?start=0
Perhaps Andy might be able to shed some further light on the 3 Frua drawing stages below as you can just make out his name at the bottom of the first and last picture ?
That's all the details and info I have so hope this is some help.
Good luck ! [:)]
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MA 200
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-ACFactoryfirstdrawin.jpg)
Dis 729, 730 and 731.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-Dis729.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-Dis730.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-Dis731.jpg)
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The drawing in Dis730 is presumably an early design sketch provided by Frua soon after their first meeting with Derek Hurlock in 1965. This drawing was subsequently used by AC Cars in their first adverts for the AC 427 in October 1965. This advert is reproduced in full on page 282 of the new Brooklands Books 'AC Cars 1904 to 2009', a review for which is due to be published in the May 2010 ACtion.
When read carefully, this advert also says much about the relationship between AC Cars and Shelby American, and use of the name Cobra, at that time.
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MA 200 wins Best of Class at Amelia Island Concours 2010
Hi all! I know it's beena while, but after a painstaking nearly 3 year restoration, MA 200 is getting accolades evrywhere she's seen!
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/chassisNum.aspx?carID=18244&iDNumID=9877
She is absolute blast to drive with power always on tap. handling is precise and as good as most modern sports cars. hard to believe she is nearly 50! but the most fun is everyone saying Whats that?
I'd like to thank eveyone who helped track down answers and documentation over the past years with special thanks to Trevor Legate and Rinsey Mills.
With warmest regrds,
Mark Gold
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Cheers Mark - and thanks for all the photos!!!!!! Happy Motoring