AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Mk IV, Superblower, CRS and other Continuation Cars Forum => Topic started by: nick Godridge on January 28, 2014, 09:03:30
-
Following up on my previous post on this subject, if you have not done so already, go to "an original cobra: an outsiders point of view" on the Thames Ditton forum.
Seems all is not well in paradise. MK 1V perceived as same as Kirkham by the luminaries.
No wonder they are not following T.D products ever upwards!!
Nick G
-
Paradise Lost?
I`ve always struggled with the perception of the MkIV. To me it was always a natural progression, update, revision, development, continuation, evolution but essentially NOT a replica. But that`s just me... and I ain`t no Luminary![;)]
The MkIV can never 'sell' racing history like some T.D Cobras do, where some are 'worth' double or triple the value of a 'no stories street car', but they are certainly following 'the market' upwards, at times at an advanced rate, but it appears that there is a downward curve at the moment. Hard to pin down a realistic value when you can have MkIVs on sale at £100,000+ and sub-£60,000 at the same time, even £35k for the 'prototype' CRS!
-
quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Paradise Lost?
... Hard to pin down a realistic value when you can have MkIVs on sale at £100,000+ and sub-£60,000 at the same time, even £35k for the 'prototype' CRS!
It should be remembered that the condition of a car can have a significant impact on its value. The yellow Mk IV recently offered for GBP 55,000, for instance, is advertised as being 'in generally good condition'. According to my experience such language used in an advertisement does in fact mean that the condition of a car is poor, to put it mildly.
-
...But, with some serious competition history to factor in, in the hands of a modern-day Cobra legend! It still seems inexpensive to me.
I agree with you about the possibilities of condition and description being way apart (Note: NOT suggesting that the ad for the yellow MkIV is in ANY WAY inaccurate!) and that really backs up my point about how hard it is from 'out here' to guess at accurate values.
-
I believe that the post "T.D." era cars will always sell at a discount with how much depending on condition, mods, economy.
I've followed A.C.'s since the early 1960s and purchased an Ace 2.6 in the early 1970's for $2,000 (now find one for less than $300,000).
A good example was the newly rebuilt highly modified Aceca selling for $60,000 while a restored Aceca Bristol went unsold with a $140,000 bid.
Recently I drive newer Corvettes and follow their values. A restored '69 L88 427 will bring somewhere in the $200,000 range. A restored well storied race version just sold for $2.9m! Similarly mid 60's 427's were nearing $200,000 but a 1 of 1 (options plus red/red color) sold for $850,000. The fact that it was the only red exterior/red interior car built added $500,000!
In my mind the market for normal cars is off right now but rare or storied cars seem to be going for a premium. A great example is the Ferrari 330 GTS which sold in Scottsdale this month. It was driven 30,000 miles had a fire and went to the insurance company before being lost for 40 years. Un-repaired and not running it sold for $2.1m. The story probably added $1.25m.. to the price!
Rarety, provinance and stories bring the money.
John
-
Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... I've never lost money on my classic cars (major engine breakdown excepted), and selling some with benefit allowed me to buy my MKIV; but each time I bought a car I was in love with, leaded by passion, and even if I was careful about its possible resale value, it was never the major point.
regarding the MKIV, I do think that a part of the "problem" is its unknown history. For example, there have been no article about it in French press (classic or not) since at least ten years! nobody knows it, even in the classic cars fans audience, and even Cobra fans don't know its history ! Kirkham are much more well known, and are often supposed to be the only aluminium bodied cobras ! I had to "educate" the Artcurial consultant about the MKIV he was selling few months ago, and he was happy to know more about it (the car finally sold for k€82, with english plates)...
I know it's a bit different on the other side of the channel, but I really think that education is essential ! it is always a pleasure to inform people about the car, and I assume it is useful, regarding the forecast value [;)] ...
-
quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... I've never lost money on my classic cars (major engine breakdown excepted), and selling some with benefit allowed me to buy my MKIV; but each time I bought a car I was in love with, leaded by passion, and even if I was careful about its possible resale value, it was never the major point.
...
I fully agree, Olivier. Value and prices should not be the main points for us to be concerned with. However, if you are about to spend a six digit Euro amount on a 'toy' like a classic car, it will be very helpful for getting the permit from your better half if you can point out that you are not likely to lose money if you wish or have to sell the car again...
-
"MkIV perceived as same as Kirkham"? Apart from mangled syntax, I can't find any reference to that. Confused.
-
What does syntax mean Trevor?
In the post I referred to, in the TD section of the forum, you describe your own preference for a Kirkham. In the same post member SJ351 puts a Kirkham ahead of a Mk1V when describing his friends view of purchase options. Admittedly the context relates to a car which can be 'used'.
Surely, this is worrying to hear in a market pushing replica prices into the same bracket as original cars. Of course, market trends are themselves fashioned by publicity, and, inputs from any number of sources, which would,I guess, include views from within the ACOC and its experts.
Nick G
-
To try to clarify an assumption, I did not say, nor infer, that I "preferred a Kirkham to a MkIV". As you later point out, I was referring to a car to be used on a regular basis. I don't see how that indicates a preference? I once came very close to owning what could be argued was the 'best' MkIV to leave the factory which was offered to me at a bargain price. It was so perfect that I doubt I would have used it as I should since the fist stone chip would have ruined it! (I stupidly declined the offer) Personally I'd be very happy with a good replica - many are available, I said Kirkham as an example mainly as they are made in ali - as I wouldn't be 'quite' so distraught at the first dent whilst parked outside Tesco (sorry, Waitrose).
-
quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
Once again, I think we're too focused on value and asset, even if nobody likes loosing money ... regarding the MKIV, I do think that a part of the "problem" is its unknown history.
Mk IV owners appear to be focused on many things, but its confused status certainly benefits those who focus on the joy derived from looking at and the fun derived by driving the thing. Fact is, there is more now than ever before on the internet about the car, so anyone can become familiar with the history, as seen here:
http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1359385
http://mycarquest.com/2013/06/the-ac-cobra-mk-iv-what-a-terrific-car.html
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2012/3/31/Unique-of-the-Week-1985-AC-Cobra-Mk-IV-7708033/
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/front_website/octane_interact/carspecs.php/?see=3493
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/ac-cars/1986-ac-autokraft-mkiv-cobra-ar129167.html
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/features/octane_features/271279/driven_ac_cobra_mkiv.html
The problem, if there is one, is likely to be more than an unknown history. I personally don’t think there is a problem.
For those who are focused on value, I don’t see that prices have dropped, at least in the states. If anything, there seems to be a movement towards an equilibrium point (~ $100,000) resting between the typically higher prices seen in Great Britain/Europe and the typically lower prices seen in the USA. Worldwide, on average, prices appear to be creeping up. I’m sure that statement could start a fight in just about any bar (pub) in the world!
-
ANF289,not sure to understand all the subtilities of your answer (but try the same in French !), but you're talking about your experience, and I'm talking about mine [;)]... and I confirm that the MKIV is unknown by most of the enthusiasts here ! and I remember the story of US guys on this forum who said that they weren't very welcomed at classic events, because of this ignorance. and I assume that a Cobra is more a Shelby than an AC on your side of pond...
But I agree with you about the fact that the overall trend is rather upwards... and there is NO problem to me, as the only thing I want is enjoy and drive my car, in a quite shelfish way, and do not plan to sell it !
-
quote:
Originally posted by French Frie
ANF289,not sure to understand all the subtilities of your answer (but try the same in French !), but you're talking about your experience, and I'm talking about mine [;)]... and I confirm that the MKIV is unknown by most of the enthusiasts here ! and I remember the story of US guys on this forum who said that they weren't very welcomed at classic events, because of this ignorance. and I assume that a Cobra is more a Shelby than an AC on your side of pond...
But I agree with you about the fact that the overall trend is rather upwards... and there is NO problem to me, as the only thing I want is enjoy and drive my car, in a quite shelfish way, and do not plan to sell it !
I believe we are saying the same thing, and you certainly can say it better in English than I could ever attempt it in French!). My point was simply that the “problem” with the history is easily remedied… the “problem” with people not wanting to learn anything that they don’t believe, is another story. [;)]
-
Short story from the last days. The place: a german forum for Cobra replicas. A new thread is started: "hello, my name is ... and I would like to buy a cobra. My budget is 35T€. What do you think about this car ..." followed by a link to a car which looks like a Cobra if you close your eyes. The answers came fast, this wasn't a good car. Ok, next entry from the owner of the thread: "ok, thank you for the input. What do you think about this car" again followed by a link to a much better kitcar but this time for 60T€ [:0]
I wrote that if you have 60T€ to spend you probably have 66T€ for you next car. I pointed him to the yellow MK IV from Romance of Rust and to the MK V prototype offered at ebay.
His answer: well, the color is not so nice, one car is RHD and I have heard some bad things about english kitcars. [xx(] "English kitcars" in this context? He had absolute no idea about AC MK IV and AC MK V but he knows DAX, RAM and so on. Where should I start with the explanations? Well, my answer was not so kind but I promised to have a look at some overpayed DAX at next exhibition coming weekend ...
-
quote:
Originally posted by dkp_cobra
Short story..
Touché! [:D]
-
Point very well made DKPcobra.
And so depressing!!
Kind of illustrates the point I was trying to make about attitudes and lack of appreciation for the MK1V, even from within, it sometimes appears!
Nick G
-
The same german forum, a different new user, my recommendation to go for a MK IV or V.
The same response. [:)]
Beyond belief.
-
Hi all , I can see how upset we can get by the misunderstanding of the MKIV cobra , as it has happened to me several times , so do you sell or stand fast , so I held back and my son and I decided to get a porsche 356 to add to the AC , we also have a kit car club for Cobras nearby to where we live who hold regular meetings which we attend with the AC and they often think it is a kit , , so for the next trip out I said can I bring the 356 , there response was all kit cars are welcome , so now the 356 BT5 as well as the AC are now believed to both be kits . What can you say ! Neil
-
I don't want to revive the heated MKIV discussion of a few years ago but the reasons why MKIV don't do well in the US are the following:
They are subject to smog laws in most states and can't be easily modified. (I tried to re-register mine as a 60"s model and failed)
They are an evolution of the original car and look very different than anything produced in the 60's, too costly to make them look like a MKIII
Are a bit too "civilized" compared to an original.
I think any Cobra buyer wants the wild look and performance of a MKII or III.
The MKIV is a nice car, well built, but it lacks the wildness of the original. It's like a 70's or 80's Corvette, Does it compare with a StingRay? No. The later models have very weak engines and plastic bumpers. They are still Corvettes, but the soul is gone.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
The Mk. IV is the refined evolution of the wide bodied 427 style Cobra of the 60's and the spiritual successor of the AC 289 Sports as it is set up as a "street" Cobra with rear exhaust and typically not fitted with a roll bar nor hood scoop, with small block Ford V8 power. Definitely does not have the "wild" look of a 427 S/C Cobra which most fiberglass replicas duplicate. I belong to the Bay Area Cobra Club and my Mk. IV is generally deemed by the other guys as the only other "real" Cobra in this large club, with the other "real" Cobra being a 427 S/C owned by one of the guys. All the other cars are various makes such a Superformance, Factory Five, Shell Valley, etc. The fact that my car is an aluminum bodied car made by AC, the original manufacturer of these cars (along with Mr. Shelby's huge role of course!), carries a lot of water in terms of how the Mk IV is viewed, at least in my group of Cobra friends. I think when most people think of Cobras, they picture the wilder, hairier, 427 S/C style car, which is visually and auditorially considered to be the Cobra most people choose to have. Thus the milder "street" Mk. IV is perhaps less to people's tastes. Frankly, I love the look of the Mk. IV and greatly prefer it and it's more refined and more of a typical sports car look to that of the S/C variant of the Cobra, but that is just my taste. On this side of the pond, most people equate the Cobra to Shelby vs. AC, and there are many who do not completely understand the huge role of AC in the making of the Cobra and in Cobra history. So many are not well educated in this regard. But there are those who do "get it", and understand how special the Mk. IV is and how it fits in In Cobra history.
-
quote:
...the reasons why MKIV don't do well in the US are the following:
They are subject to smog laws in most states and can't be easily modified. They are an evolution of the original car and look very different than anything produced in the 60's, too costly to make them look like a MKIII The MKIV is a nice car, well built, but it lacks the wildness of the original. It's like a 70's or 80's Corvette, Does it compare with a StingRay? No. The later models have very weak engines and plastic bumpers. They are still Corvettes, but the soul is gone.
Emmanuel[:)]
Smog laws in many states no longer affect the Mk IV, they are typically waived for classic/historical registration.
The esthetics between the 60’s and 80’s cars are so insignificant that many feel there is no need for a costly retrofit. I happen to agree with BBK, the evolution of the design improves the car, as does the overall quality. The fact that it was produced in the 80’s makes it all that more remarkable. There is really no comparison to the 80’s Corvette. The Mk IV was one of the fastest cars that could be bought in the US at that time. You can’t say that about the Corvette. A fairer performance comparison would be with a federalized Porsche of that era.
If you want a sports car for the street, it’s the best Cobra money can buy… and on this side of the Atlantic it is still a great deal. The performance difference between a 60’s 289 (average reported road test 0-60 = 5.12 s, N = 5) and an 80’s 302 (0-60 = 5.69 s, N = 3) is just not that great, and simply removing the smog equipment will eliminate that difference. Anyone who has driven a properly set-up Mk IV would never think the soul is gone. Quit the contrary: the gestalt is pure Cobra
-
I used to have a Mark IV set up with a 351 Windsor and drove a couple of stock 302s, I also had a Kirkham that I set up with a properly built 427 with a TKO600 and I can tell you the MkIV are not even close. Maybe with a build motor it would be a different story. You also mean 0 to 60MPH not quarter mile, I can see the stock MKIV with it's less than 200HP Not in California! US smog 302 stock engine and big tires doing that 5.5 to 6.0 seconds 0 to 60 because of it's light weight but no less than that. As far as the shape, it is quite different from the the MK3 and the only common part is the basic chassis. As far as a comparison to a federalized Porsche, I agree performance will be comparable to an early 80's basic 911 3.0 except in top speed of course with the Cobra barely able to brake the 120MPH mark, it's like a brick! The AC coil spring chassis although a great chassis for the 60's would not on par with any 1980's Porsche.
On the track, I'll bet and with only a regular 944 i will go faster than any cobra or any 60's and probably 70's exotic for that matter. I remember a French car magazine in the early 80's comparing an E type Jaguar 3.8 to a stock Peugeot 505 Turbo both driven by racing drivers on the Montlhéry race track and the Peugeot was gaining a second at each lap. You just can't compare the performance of cars that are so far apart in time. I can tell you, however fast and well set up my Kirkham was, I currently track a prepared Porsche 997.2 GT3 and there is no comparison whatsoever. Top Speed, acceleration, handling etc it's like apples and oranges. It's like a Model T compared to a Golf GTI. Let's enjoy classic cars for what they are, classics but for performance it's night and day.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
The oracle has spoken..again.
-
There were a number of MK1V Cobras (as well as earlier Cobras) competing very successfully against more modern machinery in British club racing in the '90's .
This was the AMOC Intermarque Championship where the Cobras mixed it with very highly modified Aston Martins, 911 RSR's, F40's, XJ220's etc.
A MK1V won the championship in 1997.
The Cobra suspension is very competent and mainly rose jointed as standard. The cars had race engines/gearboxes/wide tyres but, the suspension was pretty standard, apart from spring rates and anti roll bars.
The Cobras were an impressive sight with some extremely good drivers all round.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
I used to have a Mark IV ...also had a Kirkham with a 427 and I can tell you the MkIV are not even close. ...You also mean 0 to 60MPH not quarter mile, ... As far as a comparison to a federalized Porsche, I agree performance will be comparable to an early 80's basic 911... The AC coil spring chassis although a great chassis for the 60's would not on par with any 1980's Porsche.
On the track, I'll bet and with only a regular 944 i will go faster than any cobra or any 60's and probably 70's exotic for that matter. ...Let's enjoy classic cars for what they are, classics but for performance it's night and day.[:)]
Right you are, 0 to 60. But you’re missing the point: no significant difference between the 60’s and 80’s cars’ performance. I’m sure if you throw a 427 in a Mk IV it will perform on par with your Kirkham… but who cares? It really doesn’t matter if you are driving on the street.
Concerning the shape: Look again and look harder. The differences are not as great as you would like to believe. Variation in the lines of the Mk I, Mk II, and Mk III are as great or greater than that between the III and the IV. But again, that’s what makes a Mk IV a Mk IV. The big difference is in the interior. Don’t you just love that dash? I do! [:D]
And the Porsche/Cobra comparo isn't as big a stretch as you would like us to believe. The May 87 issue of Road & Track actually did that comparison (RUF 3.4 vs 351 Mk IV) and concluded that both cars offered capability that makes the term “too much” something of an understatement. By the way, every R&T tester preferred the Cobra... so much for parity with any 80’s Porsche.
Good one about the 944… I’d love to hear some more fairy tales, Grimm.[:)]
We do agree that the most important thing is to enjoy your car… whatever it may be.
-
The MKIV is quite a bit heavier than the MKIII, interior, bumper braces etc, also the shape is similar but different, foot boxes transmission tunnel, inner wings etc. I remember a certain MKIV being repaired by Mike McCluskey here in LA. To make a long story shorts, the car had been crashed in the front and the owner decided to turn it into a MKIII. The only piece that remained was the chassis. It became a gorgeous MKIII with a modern fuel injected SB, I believe the car was black. This is pretty much what a lightweight MKIV is. Unfortunately, it could not be imported to the states legally. There was also an interesting thread on this forum way back called Tool Time where the owner did something similar.
Myself, I would have used a small block body if I was going to do that. The MKIV is a nice car, the dashboard is beautiful indeed. It's way more civilized and much safer that the original cars, but personaly, I I prefer the raw appeal of the originals 60s models the same way I would love a Porsche 550 Spider or an RS61.
By the way, the 351 Windsor motor is a dog, it just won't spin, it was originaly designed for pick up trucks, it's much better to have a 302 or to build a short stroke 347 using a bored out 302 block. If you want a good spinning 351 it has to be a Cleveland, a much different animal.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
If you need more power Forget 302/351, take this one :-)): 427 cui, aluminium-block, 575 hp, 495 ft lbs, 4x48 IDA Weber carbs
http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/ac-andere-cobra-mkiv-autokraft-werksr%C3%BCckbau-auf-mk-iii-frankfurt-am-main/190410850.html#utm_source=kleinanzeigen.ebay.de&utm_medium=textlink_VIP&utm_campaign=partner_ad&utm_content=more_information
-
Of course a proper 427 FE would be better but it means replacing the transmission as well and modifying the foot boxes and transmission tunnel on the MKIV. You can also bore and stroke a small block to 427cu but it won't spin much and will not last. A properly built 347 will rev to 7,000 and will make the car fast and reliable. There are ton of parts available that can bring the motor to close to 500hp. I think it's the better option for a light cobra. At least that's what I would do!
Emmanuel[:)]
-
quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Of course a proper 427 FE would be better but it means replacing the transmission as well and modifying the foot boxes and transmission tunnel on the MKIV. You can also bore and stroke a small block to 427cu but it won't spin much and will not last. A properly built 347 will rev to 7,000 and will make the car fast and reliable. There are ton of parts available that can bring the motor to close to 500hp. I think it's the better option for a light cobra. At least that's what I would do!
Emmanuel[:)]
A 302 producing 300 RWHP is more than sufficient, thank you.[;)]
-
Well I can tell you after getting used to it, my Kirkham with its 500HP at the crank was fast but I wished I had a little more! I remember a lunch I had with my mechanic and a certain Hollywood executive who had a fuel injected Kirkham producing in excess of 750HP at the crank, when I mentioned I wished I had a bit more power he said "Me too" so you can get used to anything!!!!!
Emmanuel[:D]
-
I would think that the engine in the car from moblie.de is also a Windsor based engine. And the 347 stroker Emmanueld talks about, is also in most cases nothing else then a Ford Boss engine based on the 351, but with a 8 1/2" deck rather then a 9 1/2 " deck...
A Ford Windsor 351 based "Boss" engine with 427 cui with a "very decent power" output of 537 hp, but with 767Nm (566 ft lbs) of torque can spin very reliable up to 6200 rpm and stills runs in manufacturer guarantee.
I would think, most people will have a problem to switch into 5th gear when driving 235km/h in 4th gear, or ? So it is not about rpm...but think about how you reach that speed!
By the way all of this is working without modifying the food boxes nor the 2" exhaust system for the engine, due to smaller heads, despite the fact that the endless torque in low to midd rpm range was the goal. With such engine you will get only randomly above 4500 rpm on a road at fast speed, that's also the very nice thing of an American V8, as you get there very fast due to torque, and in case of the MK IV also still weight.
We have a very nice saying, hp's (mostly based on rpm) are for the "beer" discussions with your friends in the pub, but torque is for the street!
If I would have looked for rpm, I would have looked for completely other cars ;-), as the American V8 concept is not used to serve rpm...
-
First a 302 boss engine is a 4 bolts 302 Windsor block with 351 cleveland heads. It is a good spinning engine which make horsepower high up in the RPM range, it was made by Ford for the Mustang for homologation purpose. It lacks torque for the street but would be a great engine for a light Cobra. Very Large bore and long stroke small block are certainly cheap to build and can produce good power, but such motor will last at most 5,000 miles if that. Very sharp rod angle and very thin cylinders walls make for a very fragile motor. A well built small block or 427FE with solid lifters can safely rev to 7,000rpm all day long and make a great motor for a light sports car. A low revving very high torque motor is much better suited for heavy car or 4 wheel drive vehicle. Also the T5 gearbox standard in the MKIV is only rated for 300 ft lbs of torque so it will have to go if a very strong motor is used. Either a Ford Toploader of a Tremec TKO600 should be used for such an application. The motor I built for my 428 is a slightly stroked 427FE of 454 capacity its still square and revs to about 7,000 using solid lifters and makes 550 HP and about the same torque figure. Perfect for the Frua which weight close to 3,000 lbs.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
The MK1V Cobra is undoubtedly the legitimate and deserving successor to the Thames Ditton cars. A MK111 silhoutte in form, with a new chassis design underneath, itself mimicking some of the MK111's attributes again but, essentially a very clever Brian Angliss Cobra redesign with flawless execution. Done well enough to attract serious investment from a major multi-national company in the shape of Ford and legitimately wearing the AC badge, it was a master stroke and surprised many detractors at the time.
Angliss continuously advertised under 'AC' in the Exchange and Mart in the early '80's, the registered trademark status of AC and that it was not to be used by others, nor non-AC cars advertised in the wrong section. He was of course fighting back the tide of kit car Cobra replicas without success before himself being taken to task by Carroll Shelby. The Brooklands factory was very impressive and produced some beautiful cars to a higher standard than Thames Ditton ever managed. A bespoke product with a waiting list that was selling at well over list at the height of the classic car boom.
I think part of the problem around values is that, even within the AC owners club itself, we seem to be at odds with what the cars really are : 26 Lightweight vs. Lookalightweight vs. standard MK1V. Many cars modified back to ''original MK111'' specification and owners never even realising that the basic MK1V is essentially a completely different car - as before, essentially just a silhouette, much like the modern Ford GT versus the GT40 produced in the '60's. It is perhaps therefore unsurprising that members of the wider car buying public have trouble appreciating what the MK1V actually is, especially with most kit cars and copies being advised under the 'AC' section in the small ads. The situation is made even poorer when the kits carry replica AC badges and even chassis plates. This of course affects all genuine Cobras, but in particular the MK1V.
The arrival of the Kirkham has not helped. If you want a Cobra that represents what Thames Ditton built then you could screw one together yourself for under£100k. However, I suspect the MK1V has investment potential over the next couple of decades that the Kirkham will never match. Many of us with modified MK1V dash boards etc. may one day be considering returning the car to its original hand built unadulterated factory specification. This may one day become a very sound objective, naff plastic switches and all.
I long struggled to understand why anyone would ever purchase a very high quality kit Cobra for c.£25k when MK1V's could be bought for £32k in mint condition. Their rise in value means they are essentially now beyond the reach of most people with children and a mortgage. The kit Cobra makes a lot of sense still when you have conflicting financial priorities. The basic Cobra experience is there to enjoy, real or not.
The MK1V nonetheless remains the car to have if you want the genuine article and cannot afford, or are not prepared to pay for, a Thames Ditton car. As we all know, not all Thames Ditton cars are what they purport to be, with known fakes or 'continuous history' cars abound, some created by Mr Angliss himself. It is certainly easier to identify an unadulterated MK1V and then enjoy it for what it is ; a lovely piece of hand built craftsmanship with a very strong lineage.
-
I am in admiration over your enthusiasm for the the markIV which is indeed a very nice car. A few corrections need to be made however.
1 The MKIV chassis is identical to the MKIII Cobra with the exception of the the rear suspension arms which come from the Frua.
2 Additional bracing was added to the MKIV to meet US crash impact laws.
3 302 small block and tranny were used because the FE was no longer produced and the small block was smog legal in the US.
4. BA knew that without US sales his project was doomed.
People buy Kirkhams because they are faithful replicas of the Original both SB and BB which in most people's mind are what a Cobra is ! It is as simple as that.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
And all of you forget to mention the even cheaper (and humbler) CRS, now with prices fallen slightly, cheaper than the top end fibreglass replicas. You talk of people returning their cars to original speck yet only a few days ago you were congratulating someone for putting "retro" wheels and spinners on a CRS, the wired wheelnut being one of the few ways of telling a genuine car at a glance.
-
I fell in love with the Mk 1V about eighteen months ago when a friend took me out in his. A great ride, sound and overall experience, and something you could use on the road fairly often weather permitting.
I started looking seriously about three months ago, and just missed out on the yellow ex Bill Bridges car mentioned above. There were a few minor things that needed sorting on the car, + a new non-racing clutch.
Great engine and a valuable number plate too, sold for £52.5k.
Now I'm really confused. I see pretty average Mk1Vs being offered in the £70-100k range that have been sitting there forever (and are beyond my budget), and one at Coys recently that didn't sell for less than that. Lots of adverts also highlight what "great investments" they are, which usually means "I want to get out quick before the market drops"
Recent sales activity would suggest prices peaked about 2012 and are effectively falling
Now I'm thinking maybe a nice replica would give me the same fun for less than half the price, though my heart says I'd like a "real" one that would hopefully also retain or increase in value.
Confussed !
-
quote:
Originally posted by ace
I fell in love with the Mk 1V about eighteen months ago when a friend took me out in his. A great ride, sound and overall experience, and something you could use on the road fairly often weather permitting.
I started looking seriously about three months ago, and just missed out on the yellow ex Bill Bridges car mentioned above. There were a few minor things that needed sorting on the car, + a new non-racing clutch.
Great engine and a valuable number plate too, sold for £52.5k.
Now I'm really confused. I see pretty average Mk1Vs being offered in the £70-100k range that have been sitting there forever (and are beyond my budget), and one at Coys recently that didn't sell for less than that. Lots of adverts also highlight what "great investments" they are, which usually means "I want to get out quick before the market drops"
Recent sales activity would suggest prices peaked about 2012 and are effectively falling
Now I'm thinking maybe a nice replica would give me the same fun for less than half the price, though my heart says I'd like a "real" one that would hopefully also retain or increase in value.
Confussed !
Is a MK IV CRS an option? http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C469234
-
The CRS is indeed currently good value and very credible as a road car with a very similar chassis to the MK1V. A better long term bet than a kit in my book if you want to enjoy a Cobra and maybe be surprised at what it might fetch one day when you come to sell it.
Emmanueld : I am afraid you are wrong. The MK1V chassis is very different to the MK111 in its dimensions and execution, although you are right if you mean the suspension layout etc are similar. The early MK1V cars used different MK111 style suspension arms briefly before Brian went to a bespoke re-design. If you want the ultimate race engine then an all alloy Fontana Clevor block with steel crank and rods is a very good place to start, as I am sure you will know. Mine puts out 580 BHP at 6800 RPM.
-
I have considered the CRS but again I can't see how a car sold for £39k 10-14 years ago is worth pretty much the same today.
Money put into an Aston Martin, Jag, Ferrari etc then would have at least halved by now.
-
Hi mark to buy a Ac is to drive,not just to make £ please enjoy the car ? CRS .MKIV or III what ever your budget. Neil
-
BA inherited all the Thames Ditton part bin, this is why the MKIV use AC428 parts. Even the chassis is a shortened 428 part and this is why the cross members are in slightly different locations than on the MKIII and that the track is wider! (428 rear uprights) No evolution there, straight Thames Ditton. Still the 4" tube chassis as well. Later models post BA have a different chassis but that's another story.
I would buy another early MKIV if I found a nice one. Could install a modern Mustang modular OHC engine with all smog gear, it would make an awesome California legal car.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
MKIV, ??
-
quote:
Originally posted by ace
I have considered the CRS but again I can't see how a car sold for £39k 10-14 years ago is worth pretty much the same today.
Money put into an Aston Martin, Jag, Ferrari etc then would have at least halved by now.
AC vs replica... you may have answered your own question. The car market is like the stock market, it goes up and down. But in the long run, if you got the right car, it will go up. Maybe not in your lifetime, so plan on leaving it to your kid!
-
AK1040 meets the point, drive it love it – it’s not all about money.
Started my “Cobra-life” with Replikas – and still have one – over the years I ended up with aluminum bodied MKIVs. An AC/AutoKraft MkIV or CRS will be the ultimate car (sorry Kirkham / Shelby guys) if you do not enter the hemisphere of CSX/COX/COB-originals.
Again first priority for me is: Drive and love the car, being enthusiastic about design, appearance, genetic roots, etc. etc. – this is what I would summarize under “value” for me (nothing with an unit €, $ or £ in behind). I never had in mind to earn big money with my hobby, when buying and selling over the years, however I keep always an eye on not to loose money with stupid acquisitions and with a MkIV or CRS you will not loose any . If you want to go for big money keep out of automobile sector - simply become a commodity trader or investment banker.
@ Emmanueld
I agree: There is no need to put a high-power big-block engine in a MkIV.
I have some experience with different set ups and my conclusion is: It’s all about weight.
My latest order for an engine therefore has been a Dart aluminum small block (302 cui) stroked
to 347 cui. As it is build NOT for racing purposes it is equipped with a relative mild cam (full hydr. Roller E303) and low riser intake, producing 405 hp / 415 ft lbs, redline 6250 rpm.
Engine is not in Europe yet but ready for shipping :-)
-
quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
BA inherited all the Thames Ditton part bin, this is why the MKIV use AC428 parts. Even the chassis is a shortened 428 part and this is why the cross members are in slightly different locations than on the MKIII and that the track is wider! (428 rear uprights) No evolution there, straight Thames Ditton. Still the 4" tube chassis as well. Later models post BA have a different chassis but that's another story.
I would buy another early MKIV if I found a nice one. Could install a modern Mustang modular OHC engine with all smog gear, it would make an awesome California legal car.
Emmanuel[:)]
The cross members are located differently than a MK III due to the needs of the 5.0 engine, the sump used and the catalytic convertors that needed to be packaged in the car. As well as the transmission mount being in a different spot than the top loader.
While there is some Frua DNA in the MK IV, it is NOT a "shortened MK IV!" For whatever reason you didn't like your MK IV, many do. Many would also question your "redesign" of the Frua. You are making a great car out of it but it will no longer be what AC sold it as. Who is right? Everybody! It is yours and do with it what you will...............
-
quote:
Originally posted by Mark IV
The cross members are located differently than a MK III due to the needs of the 5.0 engine, the sump used and the catalytic convertors that needed to be packaged in the car. As well as the transmission mount being in a different spot than the top loader.
While there is some Frua DNA in the MK IV, it is NOT a "shortened MK IV!" For whatever reason you didn't like your MK IV, many do. Many would also question your "redesign" of the Frua. You are making a great car out of it but it will no longer be what AC sold it as. Who is right? Everybody! It is yours and do with it what you will...............
So, do you want to restomod or restore your car? When applied to a relatively common car the former certainly improves every aspect of the vehicle. When applied to a rare car, it may improve its performance but it certainly kills its soul. But you are right... to each his own!
-
Firstly regarding my Frua, I have not made any changes that are not bolt on and that can not be reversed. Car will come with original parts including original motor, radiator, fan, exhaust manifolds, original shocks and springs, etc when sold. In addition, I have taken great care to restore the car to original AC specs. Most bolts have been reused and replated except when safety required a new bolt. So the car will be most original, probably more so than so called original cars that have been taken to substandard shops and butchered for all these years. With the original hardware back in, my car would be to Pebble Beach standards and any potential buyer could do that if he wishes.
Regarding the MKIV, there would have been no need to modify the MKIII frame to fit the 5.0 Ford engine since externally it is a 302 ford. Same for the transmission. Remember the AC 289 of the late 60's? The only explanation for the slight changes to the frame was the use of Frua jigs. I would bet an AC historian would back me on that one! Also, BA had very limited means at the time and was struggling to get is car company going. I would bet that the Kirkham brothers have more funding available to them and more engineering capabilities with all the aircraft engineers working for them than he ever did. I realize we are all enthusiasts but objectivity and reality is important if you want to promote your model. I will even give you that the MKIV is a genuine AC even if some cars were actually produced before BA had actually acquired the AC name. But please, let's stick with reality and enjoy our cars!
By the way, I have plenty of originality available for a price of course! Some of the rusted body panels that were replaced! But these will be expensive, so please contact me by email for availability, these will go fast!
Emmanuel[:D]
-
quote:
Originally posted by ace
I have considered the CRS but again I can't see how a car sold for £39k 10-14 years ago is worth pretty much the same today.
Money put into an Aston Martin, Jag, Ferrari etc then would have at least halved by now.
I would say modern Aston/Jag/Ferrari from the 2000 era are effectively mass market offerings with more supply than demand due to the numbers produced and not comparable,whereas the CRS is extremely rare with only 37 produced.There were also a lot of MKiV's produced.
The CRS is excellent value for money and you can drop a stroked 302 in giving a great power to weight ratio.
Certain Ferrari keep their value -ie Challenge Stradalle F360 whilst regular F360's plummet
You could turn your argument on its head and ask how a Thames Ditton car where some large number's were produced and only 5-6 years ago cost <£100k now command 5-6 times that figure.There were a lot of TD Cobras made,and Aces.
Graham
-
Nothing quite like a little "truth amelioration" to fuel the fires.
-
From an outsiders perspective what my feelings are is that all cars produced after the 1960s are continuation or replica cars - does the fact that a company bought the AC name and tooling make the cars intrinsically better than others, or would I be paying double for the name?.
If an AC is a much better machine than the competition, then maybe it's worth it, if not the extra cost is part speculative - which is possibly why Mk 1Vs don't seem to be selling at current "normal" prices
-
MK1V's were extensively advertised in 2012 at inflated speculative prices as it was the 50th anniversary of the Cobra. Very few actually sold though but, they are still trading at more than double where they were 10 years ago. Not a bad return.
If you want an aluminum Cobra and can afford one, it starts with the MK1V in its genuine AC guise versus Kirkham. One other genuine AC Cars manufactured option is the Continuation series, though these trade at in excess of £175k (effectively AC built as an exact '60's Thames Ditton car). Shelby also produced some similar cars but, these are also likewise expensive. Some of the Shelby body chassis units were supplied by AC Cars.
The Kirkham has a lot to offer but, the last one I saw actually sell went for only c.£65k, less than the sum of its parts, not to mention all the labour on top. Will they ever command strong money I wonder? I suspect not as they are a replica and that is always going to put buyers off unless they are something of a bargain - like some Bugatti Type 35 replicas.
Brian Angliss effectively continued the AC name after the Hurlocks lost interest, having established and served the brand and put their time into growing a unique business. Nothing wrong with that, nor Brian Angliss purchasing the company then handing it over to Alan Lubinsky. After all, Ron Dennis did not start the McLaren F1 team but the cars still carry the brand quite legitimately. Aston Martin is another case in point and, like AC, Ford once owned a stake in that too.
The MK1V was in many ways like the Morgan offering of the time - the traditional shape with modern technology and updated interiors creeping in. The more traditional MK1V Lightweight was available for those with deeper pockets. The original Thames Ditton cars will always be more desirable but, few can afford to commit the funds to ownership.
Emmanueld's 428 is a very nice custom car that can have the modernised parts removed easily for it to be converted back by future owners to the old barge it was when it left the factory. Nothing wrong with that and all part of the Thames Ditton DNA that can be returned to the car at any time to no doubt increase its value a little too. I am not sure why you think the MK1V has a Frua chassis but, I can send you a picture of a MK1V stripped to the bone. Frua it is not, though it does resemble it in some respects.
There is a lot to be said for a CRS at c.£40k if that is your budget and it is unlikely to depreciate, though a lovely DB7 V12 Vantage could be bought for less. No sense in old car values, that's for sure. Just sentiment.
-
There are 2 basic latter chassis layout produced by Thames Ditton starting with the AC Ace. The first one commonly referred to as the leaf springs chassis using 3" diameter tubes was used on the Ace, Bristol, Aceca, early Cobra and then the later sb Cobra with rack and pinion steering. All these cars have the same basic chassis with some evolution. With the advent of the 427 big block, with help of Ford, The chassis was completely redone using 4" tubing and coil springs all around. Again the same basic chassis was used starting with the MKIII (427). AC289, Frua (stretched) and MKIV (shortened again) After the MKIV the same chassis was used on the Malta alloy and fiberglass cars for a while I believe and then a cheaper rectangular design was used. Again the 4" chassis is identical on the MKIII and the AC289. On the Frua, the chassis was lengthened by 6" to accommodate the longer body and the cross bracing was modified to accommodate the new body dimensions. Also, the Frua was fitted with different beefier rear uprights which widen the track. On the Frua the half shafts are also beefier eliminating the spleens on each side of the differential which were a weak point on the MKIII. The MKIV uses all the same parts as the Frua, the only difference is the the shorter chassis back to MKIII length. I found out about the cross bracing difference when I tried to install an Aviaid racing 427 oil pan on my Frua specifically designed by Selby for the MKIII, it did not fit, the second chassis crossmember was in the way, I had to use the smaller pan designed for the GT500. I was the told by a well known cobra restorer here in LA that the MKIV has exactly the same problem when outfitted with an FE. Knowing that BA bought all Jigs and parts from Thames Ditton, it's obvious the crossmember was never relocated back.
I don't know why you say the MKIV chassis is different, it's not. The later Malta cars have indeed a different chassis but not the BA cars.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
This CRS sold at the weekend for £41k - sounds like a nice car
http://www.silverstoneauctions.com/ac-mkiv-crs-cobra
-
OK, I am have a gentleman interested in a 1967 Shelby GT500 with a GT40 race prepared 427 built by Holman Moody. He wants the car less the engine so he car put the correct 428PI back in it. I have three questions.
Will a 427 fit in my MKIV?
I do not have a hood scoop. Will I need one for clearance?
Do you think installing this 427 into my MKIV would add or subtract from it's value.
PS: the engine is 600HP!!!
[:D]
-
To make it short: If it is a BigBlock - Do NOT do it!
Why? I own a MkIV with an Ford BigBlock installed (460 “CobraJet”) by previous owner. This engine is really huge and heavy. (To make it more worse they installed a 6-gear Richmond).There has been lot things adjusted with the car: engine compartment, footboxes, braces in the frame, bellhousing etc. etc. ……
However, the worst thing is weight. A good portion of the handling of the car will be destroyed by this heavy weight for ever, independent whether you go for racing or cruising.
I have another restauration project in my snake pit which came with an original 427 side oiler.
The original sideoiler has of course iron cyl. heads – more worse and again dozend of kilos more than my “CobraJet”.
Just from the beginning I put this iron anchor beside and decided for a stroked 302 (347 cui) with an aluminium block (see thread above)……
…..nothing against a stroked 351 (427 cui) small block (iron or better alu block)……. Even nobody needs more that 350 hp in a Cobra/MkIV for cruising – a race small block will deliver 600 hp or more also. Driveability is a different story with such hipo-engines.
-
I've always wanted a Ford 427 in anything. Maybe my garage.
-
Is this the car – auctioned last year – where the engine should come from ??
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CA0813-161562
May be you put the engine in a ’62 Ford Galaxie?
And be cautious: Like with all rare and expensive goods you will find also faked side oilers in the market (out of this view perfect engine for “original” Cobras ;-) )
Last not least a comment from us-muscle-car Forum about the 427 side oiler:
"You don't see very many 427 Galaxies due to the engine's cost and the fact that it wasn't very streetable. That is it was built for all out top end performance which made it a poor daily driver. That's how the 428 came about. It too is very powerful, but designed to make low end torque. That made it the perfect street beast."
-
As to the idea that the AC 289 sports proves the 80's Mustang 302 will fit in the MK IV with no crossmember mods, the 289 sports did not have the double sump pan that the Mustang uses.
-
AK1131, the 460 is a totally different motor than the FE, it is much larger, the FE is somewhere in between the SB and the 460. It is quite a bit heavier than the small block but with an aluminum intake and heads it is manageable. It will not fit in a MKIV without modifications to the foot boxes. You would have to replace Springs and the transmission as well. The T5 will not take the torque of a strong 427. The FE can make quite a bit of power and is reliable unlike a heavily stroked SB. There is nothing like a big block for power and sound. As far as the 427 Side Oiler, it is very street able, It all depends what cam you put in it. Because it has much larger bores and has cross bolted main bearings, it will rev higher and for a much longer period of time than the 428, it also has much better oiling and the 67 blocks have the oil galleries for hydraulic lifters as well. The ONLY drawback of the the side oiler compared to a 428 outside of cost is the thin walls cylinders which make reboring nearly impossible. .10 over is all you get. If you are going to spend the money for a big block, the 427 is the way to go. You can even buy new aluminum blocks from various companies. My Kirkham which had a 427 made 500hp and 530 lbs of torque and could rev safely to over 6500 rpm, with a a relatively mild solid cam. Very good for the street. My Frua, has a 427 side oiler which is lightly stroked to 454 Cubes and produces even more power with over 550 Lbs of torque it will rev easily to 7000 rpm. The 428 dies at 4500 rpm.
Emmanuel[:)]
-
Emmanueld is correct AK1131 or is it still Ron?
-
" the 351 Windsor motor is a dog, it just won't spin ... If you want a good spinning 351 it has to be a Cleveland,"
Sorry to say you have that backwards ... I have 2 Pantera's with 351C and unless you do major mods, they have oiling issues ... the 351W is the basis for High Perf Block in 1969 with superior strength to the "C" block. The "W" has been the basis for the NASCAR blocks for years and superior to the "C" block. The 9.5 W block can be stroked to a 427 and with the new "C" based heads ... I have one dyno'd to 713hp. The weight savings over an FE in a cobra in these modern times = Horse Power at the rear wheels
-
ak 1234 : I fully agree with your Statement.
I think part of the confusion about the "W" blocks and their behaviour is, that you could get them in many many versions with an extrem wide range of hp/ft lbs - characteristics. Starting from the marine version with high low end torque and 220 hp, truck engines, engines for campers up to these 700 hp high power performance engines.
-
' 428 outside of cost is the thin walls cylinders which make reboring nearly impossible. .10 over is all you get.... The 428 dies at 4500 rpm. " I don't mean to be confrontational ... but your generalizing and your statements are only partially true ... i only wish i was outside your shop when you were disposing of those 428 cj blocks bored .010 over. I raced 428 for a few years and we would sonic test the walls and center bore them and get 0.60 out of a 428cj block. We also install restrictors in the heads to increase oil flow to the lower end. We use zero end gap piston rings and Vandervell tri metal bearings. We did for years ran NHRA C class and the 428's would go to 7100 rpm ... but made peak HP at 5400 all day long. Running 5W 30 synthetic Oil we would get 220 runs on those motors ... and we could go to the junk yard and get plenty of them compared to the high dollar 427's ... so I'm still not convinced the 427 is a superior motor .. maybe better ... but
i seen plenty of the rev up and piece flying everywhere.
-
Ak1234, If you read my post carefully, I said the 427 block cannot be rebored much. For the 428, no problem as the bore walls are much thicker. Also as far as revs I was talking about a stock motor. Of course one can make a 428 rev, just not safely as much as a 427 can. People use 428 blocks because of cost, but for performance the 427 SO is a better block, just because of the priority oiling to the main bearings and bigger bores. But everything is relative and one can build a pretty good 428 motor. Don't forget, Ford in the 60's won Le Mans with a bone stock 427 in the MK4, this is proof on how good a 427 SO is out of the box.
As far as 351 Cleveland vs Windsor, again I am talking about stock motors, of course if you spend enough money, you can do almost anything. The Windsor was a truck engine, horrible heads, different firing order compared to a 289 or 302, definitely not a performer. Because of the taller cylinders, not many intakes available. This may have changed at present.
Again, a Cobra is not a Lincoln Continental, you want an engine that can rev. All v8s make tons of torque but it your engine dies at 4 grands, it will make for a very boring car!
Emmanuel[:)]