AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Ace, Aceca & Greyhound Forum => Topic started by: pjbowman on January 28, 2014, 02:12:06
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OK, managed to get the drum off the right rear, and as expected, I have leaky brake cylinder. The shoes have absorbed the fluid, so I want to replace the shoes and the cylinder. I thought I had a parts interchangeability document around, but can't seem to locate it. I thought I recalled that the brake shoes are the same as for an Austin Healey 100? Can anyone confirm? And where can I either locate a replacement Right side Girling 412840 wheel cylinder, or a rebuild kit?
Thanks for any help.
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Power Track Ltd in the UK successfully supplied my Ace (AEX1194) 2 years ago with replacement rear wheel brake cylinders. They are knock off Girlings made by County and continue to operate successfully, not leaking and the car continues to stop. Google will bring up their contact details.
If you let me have your email address, I will send you pictures or alternatively, I could send them to Nik if it is of sufficient wide Forum interest. Nik has been very patient and generous in the past and has posted for me on the Forum as I am incapable of doing so.
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Jonathan`s photos of his Power Track (http://"http://www.powertrackbrakes.co.uk/") components:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2417_3_zps345c46f7.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2417_3_zps345c46f7.jpg.html")
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2416_4_zpsf54b22e0.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2416_4_zpsf54b22e0.jpg.html")
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2414_4_zpsb21aa064.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2414_4_zpsb21aa064.jpg.html")
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2412_4_zps712c7c92.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2412_4_zps712c7c92.jpg.html")
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2411_4_zpsf1763f7f.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2411_4_zpsf1763f7f.jpg.html")
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2410_4_zpsb2cb31e5.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2410_4_zpsb2cb31e5.jpg.html")
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Thanks guys. Are there replacement brake shoes available? I can always have mine relined here in the US, so that is an option also. Have ordered some parts from Moss Motors (for an early AH 100) to see if they are indeed the same parts. They look like it from the diagrams.
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Peter,
I checked the '65 interchange manual I have and it says the cylinders interchange with an AH BN-1 and the shoes interchange with the AH 100-4. I may have a few rebuild kits if you need one, but I am unsure of the rubber condition.
Jay
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Peter
Barry Howsley can supply you with brake linings and rivets, check his regular advert in ACtion.
With regards Brake shoes for the Ace and Aceca, I believe Land Rover MK1 Shoes are identical, best check out first, maybe some one can confirm compatibility...[?]
Cheers
Keith..[:)]
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Thanks Jay and Keith. Will see if the stuff from Moss and Victoria British actual match, and let everyone know for next time.
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Land Rover MK1 brake shoes have same diameter and the same cut outs but are too wide, you could mill them down , weld up the rivet holes and redrill new rivet holes, but not practicle.[:(].
Front shoes easier to find than rear ones ...... Can anyone please confirm which other cars from the 1950s had the same shoes as thse fitted to the Ace and Aceca..[?]
Keith..[:)]
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Got a replacement wheel cylinder from Moss (for AH 100) and it is the correct one. Have ordered a pair of brake shoes from Victoria British to see if they match up also. One thing I need to find is the Nyloc nut that holds the cylinder to the backing plate. No one seems to have those - anyone know who might be able to supply? The nut that was on the old cylinder was not the correct thread, someone had forced it on.
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Keith,
The interchange manuals I have show the shoes being the same as the ones used on the AH 100-4 but I have not verified.
Peter,
I am not sure of what threads are on the cylinders, but if the threads are British have you tried British Fasteners?
http://www.britishfasteners.com/index.php/categories/nuts
They show locking nuts and have always had what I needed in stock.
Jay
Edit- I just found a hand written note from '68 that I have (I am not sure who wrote it) and it says the front shoes are from a 100-4, but the rear are from a BN-1. Again, I have not personally verified this.
quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
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Land Rover MK1 brake shoes have same diameter and the same cut outs but are too wide, you could mill them down , weld up the rivet holes and redrill new rivet holes, but not practicle.[:(].
Front shoes easier to find than rear ones ...... Can anyone please confirm which other cars from the 1950s had the same shoes as thse fitted to the Ace and Aceca..[?]
Keith..[:)]
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I just checked the Moss site and they show 2 different types of shoes for the rear of the BN1. One for the early bevel gear cars, and a different one for the later Hypoid gear cars. Unfortunately, the early shoes are not available but the later ones are. All is not lost however as linings and rivets for the early style look like they are available.
http://www.mossmotors.com/Browse/PlateMenuProducts.aspx?WebCatalogID=2&PlateTypeID=1&SubcomponentID=20&ComponentID=4
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In case it helps, I looked up the rear brake shoe numbers in a Lucas catalog and it shoes the leading shoe as P/N GB41540 and the trailing as GB41542.
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Thanks Jay, I will l know later this week if the available AH shoes are a replacement. I can always get mine relined if need, so this is really a test of suppliers!
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Well, the brake shoes that are available (later 100-4 and on thru the 3000's) aren't an exact match. They are the right size and arc, and could be made to work, but I'm just going to get my originals relined.
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Oh, and I was able to get the Nyloc nuts for the cylinders right here in my small home town from a specialty fastener shop. 12 for $1! Best bargain in a long time! So if anyone else ever needs these, let me know.
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quote:
Originally posted by pjbowman
Thanks guys. Are there replacement brake shoes available? I can always have mine relined here in the US, so that is an option also. Have ordered some parts from Moss Motors (for an early AH 100) to see if they are indeed the same parts. They look like it from the diagrams.
Peter
Received a DVD through the post from MIKE MANSERGH reference:-
GIRLING SERVICE MANUAL 1946 onward.
Scrolling through numerous pages I note the following:
1953 - 1958 ACE & ACECA.
Front Brake Shoes 11" x 1 3/4" HLSS ( Section 2 page 51 )
Rear Brake Shoes 11" x 1 3/4" HW ( Section 2 page 43)
OTHER CARS Using same FRONT BRAKE SHOES:-
Austin Healey "100" BN1 (1953-1956) (up to chassis 223046)
Austin Healey "100" BN2 (1953-1956) (up to Chassis 228047)
Austin A.70 Hereford (1951-1954).
Austin A.70 & A.50 (1949 - 1951).
Rover "75" (1950).
Daimler DJ250 & DJ251 Conquest Saloon (1953 -1956).
OTHER CARS using same REAR BRAKE SHOES:-
Austin Healey "100" BN1 (up to Chassis 221535)
Austin A.70 Hereford (1951-1954)
Hopefully the above helps in securing spare sets of Brake shoes to keep our AC Ace & Aceca on the road...[;)]
Vote of THANKS to Mike Mansergh for his research and for sharing.[;)]
Keith..[:)]..[:)]
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Thanks Keith. Now, does anyone know where to obtain said shoes? I ended up having mine relined, but would be good to know options for the future.
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Here's another questions - are the shoes in Jonathan's pictures above installed correctly, or are the top and bottom reversed? I ask because when I took my drums off, mine were just the opposite - the top shoe has the lining starting back from the cylinder, while the bottom shoe has the lining all the way to the leading edge where the shoe rests on the cylinder.
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I have asked Nik if he would kindly post a photo of my NS rear brake shoes and cylinder prior to be removed for the Power Track supplied cylinder. I can only assume they went back on correctly.
I continue to stop as I should!
Jonathan
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Upon further investigation, Girling Bulletin No. 501.T.108, dated Feb /59, shows the lining on the bottom shoe (leading shoe) set to the rear or adjuster end of the shoe and the top shoe (trailing shoe) set to the front or cylinder end of the shoe. It would therefore suggest that my shoe arrangement is correct.
Jonathan
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Peter & Jonathan
Brake servicing has been covered a few times over the years, refer to September 2000 ACtion and May 2003 ACtion.
Or
Use the ACOC web site, log in using user name and password (in latest issue of ACtion), go to Models then to Ace, then articles, scroll down and print off Rear Brake Overhaul and Ace and Aceca Brake Servicing.
Keith..[;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by jp7025: My NS rear brake shoes and cylinder prior to be removed for the Power Track supplied cylinder. I can only assume they went back on correctly.
I continue to stop as I should! Jonathan
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2415_zps925d80ef.jpeg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/user/nikbj68/media/JP%20AC%20Ace%20rear%20brakes/IMG_2415_zps925d80ef.jpeg.html")
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Well now I'm confused - as per Keith's advice, I grabbed the May '03 Action, and on page 40, it shows the brake shoes installed the opposite of the pictures above, but matching how they were on my car when I disassembled - top who has the liing starting back from leading edge were it sits on the cylinder, bottom shoe has the lining at the leading edge where sit sits on the cylinder. Also found a few Girling pics on the inter web that match my setup. Does anyone enow for sure, or know if it even make a difference?
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The position of the brake shoes in jp's photo is correct. If you compare each pair of shoes you will notice that the lining on the upper shoe is the shorter of the two, this is the leading or primary shoe. The correct positioning of this shoe is very important for the correct functioning of the brakes. Without going into too much detail the initial movement of the leading shoe causes a self servo/ self energising action to take place in the trailing shoe, leading to increased brake performance.
Rather confusingly the information on shoe position given in the Girling service manual, is contradictory to that given in the Ace owners handbook.
Another area not to be overlooked in the Ace/Aceca rear brake system is that the wheel cylinders must be allowed some float on the backplate so that the shoes self centre and do not jam on.
Regards Luke.
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OK, I've repositioned the shoes as recommended, now can someone tell me what magical tool is needed to actually bleed the rear brakes? No way to get a wrench over the bleeder to be able to crack it and close it as brake is pumped.
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Well I just went ahead and made the 'magic tool', but how do the rest of you guys do it?
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There are simple pressurising kits which seal the master cylinder & supply new brake fluid under low pressure, then you can control the bleeding at the nipple with a short pipe in a small pot of fluid to exclude air passing back!
Another way is a special hand vacuum pump designed to suck the fluid from the nipple but you will need to ensure the master cylinder is kept toped up!
Robin
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Robin, thanks. I have all that kit, that's all fine once you can get to the bleeder valve. On the rear brakes, I see no way to use a normal wrench to open and close the valve while a hose is attached, that was my question. I'm curious as to what others have come up with to access the valve. I made a tool that will fit the valve and let the hose run thru it to accomplish this in my case.
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Peter.
Easiest solution is to buy some extended bleed valves, approx 1" To
1 1/4".......[;)]
Keith..[:)]
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Makes sense Keith! Where to get those? My internet search hasn't turned up a source.
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Peter I am using these http://www.automec.co.uk/collections/brake-fittings/brass-bleed-screws - Look for the 1.44" length.
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I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that a brake bleeding tool was included in the original tool kit with these cars. It's exactly as you have described a tubular box spanner with a handle and you can find a photo of it in this thread.
http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1158&SearchTerms=aceca,tools
Regards Luke.
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Thanks Luke, that's basically what I made! I did make mine with a bent handle to clear the drums (due to the angle of the valves), will be trying it out this weekend.
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quote:
Originally posted by B.P.Bird
Peter I am using these http://www.automec.co.uk/collections/brake-fittings/brass-bleed-screws - Look for the 1.44" length.
Great, thanks BP!
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Peter
Spent part of the Easter break in the garage refurbishing the Brakes on BEX333.
New Alfin Brake drums up front, new brake shoes and linings all round and ground of front adjuster cams and fitted 4 new cams, old ones had vertually no teeth.
Noticed rear brake shoes incorrectly orientated, In the 49000+ miles I have done in BEX333,I had always just refurbed and put back as found, Since rebuild and couple of trips round the village to set up and re-adjust, the transformation is really encouraging.
Must now put a hundred miles or so on the clock to bed brakes in prior to competing at Shelsley Walsh Hill Climb on 3rd and 4th May. (along with six other ACOC members forming special invitation class just for ACs.)..[;)]
Will post pictures and report next month on Forum and possibly in small artical in a future issue of ACtion.
Peter .. .. .. Thanks for your thread on the Forum, has definitely proved useful.. appreciated. ....[;)]
Keith..[:)].
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Thanks Keith, guess I wasn't the only one with the shoes oriented the wrong way! AEX127 is all back together, brakes bled, and working great. Need to put some miles on them to really get them seated in, but so far so good. Travel and a pretty cold/nasty Spring hasn't allowed me to get out and drive as much as I want yet!