AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Roy Gardiner on July 29, 2006, 08:46:30
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I'd be interested in knowing users experience - good and bad - arming myself with that knowledge prior to, maybe, buying one.
I love distinctive, classic cars. I love 'no depreciation', too [:)].
The coupe, rather than the convertible, would probably be my choice, with auto rather than manual box (laziness; dodgy knees).
Any help appreciated.
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Dear Roy
The only problem I've had with mine is trying to keep the engine temp down.It chucks out loads of heat so,if you get a coupe,
make sure the electric windows work or carry your dinner with you and have it cooked when you get home.
Dave
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Hi Roy,
I own a convertible and I have the same problem with heat, I am in the process to insulate the whole car inside and underneath, we will see what happens afterward. Also the car is being converted to a manual box. Heat should be reduced as well! Also watch out for rust! These cars were coach built and not well rust proofed. The sills and the floors are particularly prone to rust. They are easy to repair but it will take a lot of labor to replace all the tubing and sheet metal that has gone bad. I suspect that one of the reason why the car is so undervalued is that most of them are quite rusted and that people have not been willing to spend the money to repair them properly!
Engine is straight forward big block Ford! Cheap and easy! Aluminum heads are the way to go with modern fuel. You can run your engine with 10.1 compression and it will never overheat. An oil cooler might be a worthwhile addition as well. There are other mods if you are interested, all the Shelby guys have done the modifications over here.
The other weakness of the car is the suspension, it is set too low and it touches the ground every time you get in a driveway or a garage. The problem is that the rear upper control arms are not adjustable, so they should be replaced by Cobra 427 control arms. Shocks are too soft, spring rate is too low. My original springs were rated at 325 Lbs all around vs 400Lbs Front and 600Lbs Rear on a 427 Cobra, Meanwhile the car weight 1,000Lbs more. A nice set of Konis' will change that! With stiffer springs and shocks the car drives a lot better and still has a good ride! I might install a front sway bar as well. The Frua was never fully developped and can be improved easily. It is a true exotic and with a bit of twicking, it will leave in the dust just about any 60's or 70's Ferrari or Lamborghini.
Emmanuel
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By the way, a friend of mine has a really nice AC Frua Coupe, California car since new, the car looks like it came out of the factory when put on the lift. He has the same problem, heat, heat and touching the ground. He will do the same modifications as I did soon.
Emmanuel
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Hi
All 428 Fruas have heat dissapation problem/s, there is insufficient air comming into the engine bay, most that enters becomes stagnet over the top of the engine.
Best solution to get rid of build up of under bonnet heat is to have two rows of 15 or 16 louvres cut into the bonnet, major problem solved !!
Try this little test........ Run the car hard on the road or track & monitor temperature ( Do not exceed 120 degrees).
Let the Beast cool down, Have a coffee, Now do the same run again just as hard with the bonnet securely held open by about 25 / 35 mm....... you should find that the temperature is substantially lower.... problem solved.
Either run with the hood partially open or cut the louvres in the bonnet and enjoy driving hard and fast with-out constantly looking at the bloody temp gauge.
This test was carried out by a few ACOC members at Nurburgring or Spa many years ago, a article actually appeared in a very old back issue of ACtion. When I get some spare time I will try to find the Article and get it published on the forum, ( I think the article was in back issue during the period..... late 70s or early 1980s.
Please try the test and come back with your results, you should be pleased, U then O Me a bottle of Malt.!! Go and Seriously Enjoy the Frua as it was intended but never experienced.
Keith
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Keith, Thanks I will try this and get back to you! I will not mess up the original hood which is still gorgeous! what I will do if this works is have an new aluminum hood made up with louvers to correct the problem! I had to pull the motor out last year for mechanical reasons and we insulated the firewall with aircraft insulation, did not make much difference. I think the floors behind the front fender panel would benefit from insulation as well. I will try that as well and report! Here in LA the car is almost impossible to drive in the summer, even with the top down!
Emmanuel
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Emmanueld
Have made time and found the article, reference a solutionto curing overheating problem on AC 428s Cobras even Cobra Daytonas'.
Pages 9 , 10 & 11 in ACtion Vol 8 No6 ( October 1984 ) written by Wolfgang Rudolf. I will attempt to get it reproduced on the Form.
Most Sports / Exotic cars with plenty of grunt have either or / And, not only adaquate cold air intake but also have features eg Louvres or shaped body panels to allow hot air to be drawn out and away from the heat source.
Unfortuneatly ACs restricted the frontage of the car, put inadaquate side vents which incidentaly they then obstructed with other items, The heat builds up and has no where to go.
Fitting bigger rad would help a little, extra electric fans can move the air, but does not extract and take the stale stagnent air away from under the hood ( BonnetExtract from ACtion feature.
Test drives on the Nurburgring Grand Prix Circuit with an air scoop and opened bonnet (Hood) showed no overheating tendencieseven under extreme driving conditions. With the bonnet (hood) closed overheating showed itself within a few minutes, which clearly showed that air inlet and outlet are entirely disproportionate.
Carrol Shelby, Bob Bondurant etc all experienced similar / same problems with the Daytona Cobra/s.You MUST get rid of the engine heat with a continuos adaquate flow of cold air, 20% to30% of engine heat is taken away by coolant (water), 30% or more needs to be removed by air flow around the engine.
Some of the Cobras and Aces racing in the UK, especially endurance 1 -1/2 hours or more run with the rear edge of the bonnet locked open by using extended securing pins.( 1" t0 !.5") Doesnt look too pretty but does the job, however two rows of 15 louvres looks purposfull, looks cool and allows the engine to run cooler, the occupants can enjoy the drive and arrive at there destination reasonably dry and comfortable.
Check out 1960s.... Aston Martins, Jensons, Iso Grifo, Bizzarrini, Ferrari 250s etc etc, all have adaquate heat extraction built into the contours of the body, these features are expected and serve a purpose, pity AC didnt spend a little more time in the wind tunnel or design stage to overcome this persistant problem. Carry out the test and you will enjoy the 428 like never B4.
Enjoy ! !
Keith
Keith
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Thanks Keith,
About building louvers on each side inside the fender wells? and channeling the heat to the side vents? This should be relatively easy to do! Maybe using small fans, I used to have a Ferrari Mondial T, This is the way the heat was extracted from the oil cooler on the side! Although louvers in the hood sound like a better idea! The Aston V8 also has a bigger opening in the back of the hood, would that help?
Emmanuel
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Emmanueld
The Louvres, 2 rows of 15 are cut in the hood / bonnet, to let the hot air escape from above the engine The hot stagnet still air needs to be released, The colder air travelling up and over the bonnet will help draw the hot air out and away.
Extra extraction in the inner wing area or from under the car can only help.
Air scoops on the hood / bonnet on the Ace or Cobra do very little if anything regards heat extraction . It does however help force colder air into Carburration which for normally aspirated engines is a positive step in the right direction. The two rows of louvres in the rear of the AC Aceca bonnet release hot air, Why the Ace never wore these we shall never know. But they would certainly help dissipate the unwanted hot air which is trapped towards the rear of the engine and bulkhead area, hence Ace Bristols run hotter on cylinders number 5 and 6.
Any form of ductwork from the engine bay to lead hot air into a colder stream of passing air is going to in turn help draw more air into the engine bay which will absorb excess heat away from the engine thus reducing your problem of overheating. ( If stuck in heavy traffic putting the heater on full takes heat away from the engine because you are in effect employing a second radiator, however it puts the hot air into the passenger area.
Conclusion:-
You must increase air flow into engine bay and release it away even quicker, In theory easy However in practice bloody impossible with the basic design of the 428. Try the open bonnet trick to prove the theory, then be brave and get the body shop to create the 30 louvres.. ..
Keith
Keith
Keith
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Would you have a photo of the AC Aceca bonnet by any chance?
Emmanuel
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Emmanuel
Please confirm your email address and I will send you some pictures, In the meantime I will speak to Andy Shepherd and a couple of other Frua 428 owners, e.g. Adrian Dawn (CF73) & Tony Valenti (CF69) to see what mods they have carried out to reduce the heat problem, I will also try to find out a contact for Wolfgang Rudolf, (CFX27) He is a club member or was in Feb 2004. I can confirm his possible address in Mannheim Germany, assuming he hasn't moved in the past three years, Might be worth you make contact with ACOC membership sec. Tony Morepeth.
Keith
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Emmanueld
Have made time and found the article, reference a solutionto curing overheating problem on AC 428s Cobras even Cobra Daytonas'.
Pages 9 , 10 & 11 in ACtion Vol 8 No6 ( October 1984 ) written by Wolfgang Rudolf. I will attempt to get it reproduced on the Form.
Most Sports / Exotic cars with plenty of grunt have either or / And, not only adaquate cold air intake but also have features eg Louvres or shaped body panels to allow hot air to be drawn out and away from the heat source.
Unfortuneatly ACs restricted the frontage of the car, put inadaquate side vents which incidentaly they then obstructed with other items, The heat builds up and has no where to go.
Fitting bigger rad would help a little, extra electric fans can move the air, but does not extract and take the stale stagnent air away from under the hood ( BonnetExtract from ACtion feature.
Test drives on the Nurburgring Grand Prix Circuit with an air scoop and opened bonnet (Hood) showed no overheating tendencieseven under extreme driving conditions. With the bonnet (hood) closed overheating showed itself within a few minutes, which clearly showed that air inlet and outlet are entirely disproportionate.
Carrol Shelby, Bob Bondurant etc all experienced similar / same problems with the Daytona Cobra/s.You MUST get rid of the engine heat with a continuos adaquate flow of cold air, 20% to30% of engine heat is taken away by coolant (water), 30% or more needs to be removed by air flow around the engine.
Some of the Cobras and Aces racing in the UK, especially endurance 1 -1/2 hours or more run with the rear edge of the bonnet locked open by using extended securing pins.( 1" t0 !.5") Doesnt look too pretty but does the job, however two rows of 15 louvres looks purposfull, looks cool and allows the engine to run cooler, the occupants can enjoy the drive and arrive at there destination reasonably dry and comfortable.
Check out 1960s.... Aston Martins, Jensons, Iso Grifo, Bizzarrini, Ferrari 250s etc etc, all have adaquate heat extraction built into the contours of the body, these features are expected and serve a purpose, pity AC didnt spend a little more time in the wind tunnel or design stage to overcome this persistant problem. Carry out the test and you will enjoy the 428 like never B4.
Enjoy ! !
Keith
Keith
I after thinking and re-thinking, I have come to the conclusion that louvres are not the way to go, the design is more 50's. I am going to set up openings on each side of the hood like the Ferrari Daytona. This should match the style of the car. By the way, now I know why my friend's Frua runs such high oil temp. We will install an oil cooler as well! Thanks for the tip. [:)]
Emmanuel
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Just a thought but . . .
I used to have a Maserati Ghibli (1968) and Ghia solved the excess under bonnet heating problem by adding large side vents behind the front wheel arch - thereby leaving the contour lines of the most beautiful fast-back ever built undamaged.
You might want to put side vents into the 428 to improve air flow and it might be easier than putting louvres into the bonnet.
Roy, did you find a car? The only one I've seen is in Hurst Park Classic Cars - a beauty - but be sure that you're seated when they quote you the price!
M-A
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Fruas already have the same side vents as a MK III Cobra.
Rick
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I used to have a Ghibli as well, it got hot inside, not as much as the 428 but no need for a heater!. I also had a Ferrari Daytona, no problem. I think I am going to build 2 openings on each sides of the hood ala Daytona. I found a spot which should work! They will face rearward, I hope they will be large enough! I am also adding an engine oil cooler instead of the trans oil cooler! Emmanuel
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Hi Everyone,
Over the last 20 years I have spent loads of time and thought on 428 Fruas. Under the Uniclip Automotive banner we restored half a dozen 428s. We modified many more with manual conversions, 427 side oilers, right hand drive to left hooker, Serck ali radiators, and most of all, uprated suspension.
In 2002 with Simon Ascoli we built a 428 Frua race car. It was featured in Cars and Car Conversions magazine in April 03. Built to run at the front of the AMOC Intermarque Championship. It produced 651 real dyno horses and 550 lb ft. The car weighed a gnats under the ton. The aero package was ex Audi DTM TT, with front splitter, perfect flat floor and rear diffuser. The rear wing came from the Lister Storm GT2, and the total package produced a ton of downforce above 100mph. As happens all the time, soon after the car was the car finished the Championship Rules changed to outlaw all the front runners as we were 'too fast'! We only ran for 5 or 6 races. So now 'The Black Car' as it is known sits in the workshop waiting for a chance to fight again.
Back to reality and road cars, I am impressed by the common sense on this forum. Keith was spot on about the air stagnating in the engine bay. The nose builds up a bow wave splitting the airflow which flows over the bonnet/hood and under the car. This creates high pressure under the car prevents hot air being drawn from the radiator and engine bay. The result is overheating which runs away over 90mph. The Serck Ali Radiator and big fans improve the temperature recovery when you slow down but is not the complete answer. Years ago I made up a front spoiler and tested it on my road car. Back to back with and without the spoiler the water temp fell from 95C at 80mph to 80C at the same speed. The best news was that it slso remained steady at a constant 120mph. To prove it in competition I ran the car at the Bentley Drivers Club race meeting at Silverstone. It was perfect, and completed the 15 lap race, pedal to the metal without overheating. It could not have lasted 2 laps without the spoiler.
O.K. So thats the answer BUT it made the car look like a 240Z on steroids! You can't have it every way.
Emmanuel is right about the suspension, too soft and too low. We fitted loads of uprated springs and Konis with adjustable spring platforms. We had batches of springs manufactured which were uprated 50% which stacks up with Emmanuel's experience. We also fitted front anti roll bars/sway bars as part of the kit. They made the turn in much sharper. On my road car I also fitted a rear bar as well to reduce understeer as anyone who has seen me 4 wheel drifting through Fordwater at Goodwood will confirm!
Lastly, the best tyres I have found for every day use on the road are the Avon Turbospeeds which were developed for the Bentley Mulsane Turbo. They fit best on an 8 inch rim which were made by MWS at Langley. They look fabulous, ride as smooth as silk and stick to the road like glue.
Keep up the banter and most of all, enjoy your cars.
Andy.
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Thanks Andy,
What do you think about air vents on the bonnet? Also I was thinking about increasing the size of the bulge in the middle of the bonnet like the Aston V8. The current opening at the back of the bonnet is tiny and does not allow the hot air to escape! You know, come to think of it, a few years ago, I had a 1979 Aston V8 Volante that had been converted to Vantage specs. I Purchased and fitted a front "Prince of Wales" spoiler and it reduced engine temperature. So much so that original UK "prince of Wales V8 Astons have their front grill blocked! The Aston also has a huge airbox system with 2 hoses to bring fresh air to the carbs. Also, on the 428, the front bumper is in the way and split the air flow!
Regarding tires, I fitted Stock US jaguar pirelli 225/60 X 15 Z rated tires and the car corners much better, I can now feel the wire wheels flex.
While I think about it, do you know if I could purchase a clutch pedal and master cylinder from Unifix? There is already a provision for it in the pedal box.
Thanks,
Emmanuel
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Hi Emmanuel,
I'm not sure about the Aston size bonnet bulge. It depends on the air pressure in front of the windscreen. The lower the pressure the better the flow through the rear vent.
I did once prop the bonnet open with a stainless dog bowl on top of the air filter. It worked well until half way down the long straight at the Nurburgring! At over 100mph the bonnet lifted which gave me a moment's anxiety, and we never did find the bowl!
Your clutch master cylinder assembly should be available from Girling or Bob Green over here, but the pedal will need some old fashioned fabricetion.
After writing about The Black Car, I checked what needs doing to make it run. Unfortunately the fuel tank and pumps are missing as is the dry sump oil tank and associated plumbing. Obviously 'borrowed' to build another racer. Back to the drawing board.
Keep up the good work, Andy.
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I think I might have found a design for the openings on the hood! Long and norrow cuts with wiremesh like the new Aston V8, quite nice! I think that should not deface the car too much! I will start by cutting openings in the hood until I have something that works! then once I am sure of that, I will do the cosmetic part! Why is the hood so heavy since it is made of aluminum? Aluminium for you guys'.
E
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Hi Shep,
I think the spoiler might have solved the engine cooling issue, I have not used the car much as of yet but at 100MPH engine temp is steady a 70 degrees/C. No need to butcher the hood! Now the front bumpers are not installed, I wonder if it make a difference? [:D]
Emmanuel
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Hello everyone,
I'm very pleased to have discovered this forum this stormy Friday morning. My name is Chuck Maddox [the third]...
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/front_765.jpg)
Along with my sister I own AC428 Chassis No. CF7:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/dataplate_799.jpg)
which I helped my father [Chuck Jr.] locate in the mid-1970's in England. Which is a moderately amusing story, as the car was in London, I found it while in the US Midwest and it was nearly two full years before I could legally drive [:0] , but I'll try to stay on topic for this first post.... [:)] Thus, hile I've only ,,technically,, been an owner since my father passed away a number of years ago, I have quite a few of first hand experiences.
Engine Temperature:
I'll echo everything that Emmanuel and others have said about the engine's operating temperature...
The six[seven] word summary: These cars do not run cool [period].
CF7 is equipped with a pair of electrically activated fans which kick in about 95°C and will switch off about 90°C. In the summer months, unless the ambient temperature is unseasonably cool or you're at highway speeds, they are running, or cycling on/off with regularity. In the cooler months, with cooler temperatures they operate less frequently, but at lower speeds and or in City traffic, they are on quite a bit.
I'd also echo that putting in a Transmission cooler, if the '428 you're purchasing/own has an Automatic, is a very good idea. I'd also recommend installation of a high-volume oil-pump which will keep the circulation of engine oil moving apace. In fact a finned aluminum oil pan might help as well. The more freely flowing the oil and the more opportunities it has to be cycled away from the hotter areas of the engine block the better is the thinking here.
I'd tend to recommend avoidance of modifications of the body work as much as possible. They didn't make very many of these, it'd be a shame to go ape on such a beautiful design. I'd try to stick with modifications which can easily be reverted, electric engine fans, the side vents between the front wheel and the doors [viewable below] mentioned previously. In other words solutions that AC tried back in the day as much as possible, unless you're buying CF1, etc... [Please leave CF1 alone!]
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/AC428Frua.jpg)
[I should mention that CF7 was the factory press car for several years and many picture in era reviews are of CF7. If you see tag: UPG428F, chances are it's CF7]
I could see adding a chin spoiler with the idea of deflecting more air into the grill, more so than adding to the rest of the body. [Please leave the exterior hood unmodified...]
However, even on hot days with the windows down and the various flip open windows and vents open, the AC428 is a very comfortable car to drive as long as you're moving above 25mph or so. Even with a black leather interior as CF7 has. Mr. Frua must have been aware of the heat situation with the big block Ford plant when he created a coupe with 8 windows!
Suspension:
The AC 428 is provides an excellent and comfortable ride. It's plain in my mind that this car was intended for extended drives in the strongest sense of "Grand Touring". The thought of taking an extended trip in other cars of this era make me wince if not cringe. In fact, when the AC arrived in-country, my Father and I drove it back some 1000 miles from the port of entry to the mid-west with no complaints at all. We had driven out with a covered car carrier, which we hadn't
However, there is more than a grain of truth to what Emmanuel says about the suspension... It is more tuned to long stints driving and comfort than handling prowess and clearance over rough railroad crossings. Of the things I would ask for in an improved edition it would be for some of the modifications he mentions. I would love to hear expanded thoughts from him and the rest of the peanut gallery here towards those ends. [Part Numbers and sources would be VERY helpful!].
All that said, the AC, well at least CF7, still corners like a cat and will acquit itself well in most situations albeit with a bit of body roll at higher speeds:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/AC428Frua.jpg)
[Of course the car is going over 70 there and it was a kinky bend at that.]
... well, will acquit itself well as long as one isn't going up against cars with either more modern or extensively tuned suspensions. With a 79-81 series production run and a manufacturer who in the best of times was financially finite, there weren't a lot of resources for optimal suspension tuning.
The one other negative about the AC's driving experience is it's turning radius. It's bad, I mean it's close to full-sized Van bad. Fortunately, even with manual steering the AC is light enough that you don't have to wrestle the wheel with body-builder's strength, but one should expect to have to make several cuts to successfully parallel park. In fact, I'd wager that it wouldn't take most people very long at all to drive past close in parallel spots in favor of diagonal parking further along.
For the most part, in terms of driving experience those are the downsides that come to mind. The big V-8 provides Torque galore at your beck and call, it accelerates briskly and smoothly on demand, and you can get an oil change just about anywhere. Brakes are very good, interior comfort and space (for two people) is excellent bordering on outstanding even for taller and larger folks. One can experiment with "Regular" grades of gas, mid-range is typically adequate except for hot days and hot runs, and at 70 miles per hour 20 miles per gallon is obtainable as long as you don't whomp on the go pedal a lot.
As far as Ownership concerns... Mechanically, the design is sound and parts are pretty easy and straightforward to obtain. Mechanically it's a stretched AC Cobra 427. The major concerns are the bodywork, etc. I'd suspect I'd get a "He11 Yeah!" when I say the biggest fear of an AC 428 owner is of someone rubbernecking at that beautiful Frua body and causing a accident that will collect you. I mean, where is one going to find a windscreen if you catch a cast off pebble from a dump truck? Thames-Ditton?
Aside from that the other major concern is the steel the body was made from. Folks, the body is made of 1960's/1970's Italian coachwork quality steel. If you've been out and about in inclement weather, dry the car throughly before putting her away. The Italian steel of this era was notorious for rusting, however if you take care you can prevent or at least minimize any formation of rust.
A couple of points that I'd like to mention...
The body's design is simply drop dead gorgeous... The car does not have a bad side or angle on it. It simultaniously looks very rounded and sharp/pointy without having the bulbous looks of so many 1950's cars, or the very pointy and wedge shapes of cars a few years newer in design. The very paradoxical. There are lots of beautiful cars out there, chances are if you run across one while driving an AC 428 the occupants of the other car are much more envious of you than you of them.
The coupe simply does not have a blind spot. The Greenhouse back window and those openable 8 side windows prevent that.
The Fueling system is pure genius on the coupe... Twin filler caps on either side behind the last side window assures you are always pulled up to the proper side of the pump for filling. In addition, the fuel tanks are nearly vertical on either side of the cavernous trunk assuring a steady feed of go juice under even the most spirited of cornering.
There is plenty of room around the engine to work. The only compromise which can be seen are fairly restrictive exhaust headers. I'm certain there is probably a way to retro-fit more open headers, but I'm not certain how one would do it without major surgery. Perhaps "shep" would have some insight about that.
The Coupe I have has it's original knock-off wire wheels. We've never had a problem with them, but I'd expect that solid wheels would be more advisable with a blueprinted or enhanced engine package.
I haven't had the good fortune to have driven an original 427 Cobra, although I've had a turn at the wheel of several kit versions. But I've ridden in a number of original and kit Cobra 427's. They are harsh, brutal purpose built cars to go wickedly fast at the expense of virtually everything else. By comparision, the AC 428 is a gentleman's car that is well suited to civilized society while still being very capable of exhibiting and flourishing a fast and wild streak. This is a car one could commute to work in, in city traffic and it will display fine manners in such usage. In fact, I've read several "head-to-head" articles in various magazines over the years and nearly every one has finished off with a paragraph that I'll paraphrase as follows: ,,that all said, if given the chance to take any of these cars home to drive and to live with, the AC 428 would be my first choice and not even by a small margin...". These words are spoken in comparasion with the best of the direct competitors of the '428 in that era including the 427 Corvette, Jensen Interceptor and Jaguar XKE. While I do not have any first hand experiences with suspension modifications, I'd advise that one be conservative in changes in order to find the perfect compromise between ride comfort, ground clearance and cornering prowess.
[Wow, this had gotten long!]
Anyway... The coupe is a great car [I've never seen a AC428 Convertable in person]. I'm personally hard pressed to think of any car I'd personally rather have. Sure, I'd love to own a GT-40 [original Mark III or the recent remake], a Pantera would be nice [and they can be found at very reasonable prices], but personally I think it's hard to beat a AC 428 for a fun, comfortable, enjoyable and livable car. It simply has so much going for it.
I look forward to having conversations with you all in the future.
As a bit of a welcoming gift, I'll point you all to a rather large PDF I created of an article on the AC 428 from Automobile Quarterly...
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_Article_AQ_v29-n4.pdf
Be aware that this PDF is 6+ megabytes in size and will take some time to download to your machine [save it once it's done and read it with a PDF reader], but I wanted it big.
I'd love to hear from you all, especially if you know of AC resources in the Greater Chicago/Gary/Milwaukee metroplex. I'm afraid I'm not as much of a car collector as my father was... I'm more into collecting chronograph watches. So I'd love to know of resources in my area.
Cheers to you all and keep the shiny side up!
-- Chuck
P.S. I hope you all don't mind the length of this post. It's so nice to meet folks who know what these are! -- C
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We will do! Emmanuel
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For 25 years I positively worshipped the AC428, from the moment I first saw it at the London Motor Show. It just 'hit the spot'. I came to know every word of the road tests by heart. A wealthy relative had test-driven one and said it was "a nothing car". I never spoke to him again! I identified with the AC428.
It was purely aspirational, of course. I was young. I went through the motions - I framed a letter from AC, pressed my nose against the Thames Ditton works window, paid homage annually at Earls Court (wasting the standholders' time), obtained an insurance quote and one from Minilite for wider, offset alloy wheels - the empty space in the 428's wheel arches had always worried me. I wasted other motor factors' time with enquiries about fitments and modifications for the AC - sun roofs, tyres and engine upgrades. It was almost a religion.
In my 40's, I had serious thoughts about actually owning a 428, and went to see Andy Shepherd near Brooklands. He kindly took me for a spin in his own 427-engined Fastback.
I should have kept it all a dream. I'd always imagined the AC428 to be the best car ever made; the reality (sorry, Andy) felt more like a tractor engine bolted to a trolley jack. But I did provide Andy with the car report from 'Country Life', which even he had never seen before.
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
In my 40's, I had serious thoughts about actually owning a 428, and went to see Andy Shepherd near Brooklands. He kindly took me for a spin in his own 427-engined Fastback.
I should have kept it all a dream. I'd always imagined the AC428 to be the best car ever made; the reality (sorry, Andy) felt more like a tractor engine bolted to a trolley jack. But I did provide Andy with the car report from 'Country Life', which even he had never seen before.
For what it's worth... I've driven a number of 427 powered vehicles and the 427 engine, which I dearly love... I consider it the best engine Ford ever produced, is basically a racing engine. Big Bore, short[er] stroke, solid lifter, high strung jackhammer of an engine. By comparison, the 428 is smoother, more docile, more tractable, more civilized... It's not going to be much of a challenge for a 427 to top, but the 428 is a much more streetable motor. Fewer Zots (Horsepower) but far more forgiving and forgivable in traffic.
Howard, I wouldn't throw the AC 428 Fastback under the wheels based on one drive with a 427 powered version. Are there nicer cars out there? Certainly in the 40 years since the AC 428's have been out there manufacturers have had a lot of time to produce something better, but the 428 is still a pretty damn good car in today's world and it was a GREAT car for it's era. You can read nearly any of the Three or Four way Head to Heads against XKE's, Corvettes and other period cars, and nearly every one finishes with verbiage which I'll paraphrase ,,with all that said and done, if I had to choose one of these cars to keep and live with, the AC stands out,, and it does.
And it's a helluva a looker too!
Sincerely,
-- Chuck
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Yes, the side-on aspect has a certain, unique, je-ne-sais-quoi about it; the headlamp cowlings and horizontal line of the front wings help to give that. A 1970's TVR, on a smaller scale, had a similar profile to the AC but a less nautical and more aerodynamic and purposeful frontal aspect.
I've often fantasised about a Mk II version of the 428 and what changes might have been incorporated, like a redesigned nose (resolving the engine airflow problem), a wider track (needing only simple chassis mods.), wider wheels and fitment of the later 460 CU Ford V8 (the new model would have been the AC460), a 4-speed auto transmission, anti-roll bars, plus all the detailed improvements like oil coolers, louvres, sound and heat insulation in the bulkhead, flush-fitting side windows, air-con etc. I'll dream on.
The modern, compact Bristol 'Fighter' comes nearest to my (imagined) AC460. The concept is very similar, but the Bristol alas is so, so UGLY.
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
Yes, the side-on aspect has a certain, unique, je-ne-sais-quoi about it; the headlamp cowlings and horizontal line of the front wings help to give that. A 1970's TVR, on a smaller scale, had a similar profile to the AC but a less nautical and more aerodynamic and purposeful frontal aspect.
I am not especially familiar with the 1970's TVR's, few of which made it to far away [North] American shores...
What I really like about the Frua is that it is at or nearly at the apogee of 1960's sporting car design... Nearly everything after it was either festooned with air dams, spoilers and wings or wedge shaped most of which had all the personality and beauty of a doorstop. [Guilty admission: I kinda liked the looks of the TR-7 as an early teen, but I wised up quickly. Still like the looks of the DeTomaso/Ford Pantera, but there is no comparison with the Frua in my book]. The late 1960's produced the last automobiles which favored rounded curvy lines over and instead of hard angular/wedge lines for nearly a generation, until the "melted Jelly Bean" look of the 1983 1/2 Ford Thunderbird.
I'm not sure about what and how great the aerodynamic differences between a Frua shaped car and a similar sized Wedge shaped car would be. Certainly I'd think a Wedge shaped car would likely produce more downforce but I don't know if overall drag would be much different.
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
I've often fantasised about a Mk II version of the 428 and what changes might have been incorporated, like a redesigned nose (resolving the engine airflow problem), a wider track (needing only simple chassis mods.), wider wheels and fitment of the later 460 CU Ford V8 (the new model would have been the AC460), a 4-speed auto transmission, anti-roll bars, plus all the detailed improvements like oil coolers, louvres, sound and heat insulation in the bulkhead, flush-fitting side windows, air-con etc. I'll dream on.
I guess it would come down to how/what one wanted to create/call a Mark II AC 428... There are a number of ways one could pursue it:
1] basically take a stretched AC Cobra 427 Frame [as being made by any number of kit car and continuation fabricators] and drape over a new FibreGlass/Steel/Aluminum body on it [as has been done in the instance shown below:
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-BlackRaceCarb.jpg)(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-BlackRaceCara.jpg)
and people could fit it out as they felt...
Personally, I'd think this to be the most straightforward manner to pursue, people could then choose to modify the original basic styling/design/specs as they saw fit.
2] An updated body [along the lines of the BrisFit you mention below] on a stretched AC Cobra 427 frame.
I'd think this would be more ambitious than #1.
3] An updated frame [with your desired wider track and provisions for wider wheels, etc.] with either a replica or revised fibre/steel/aluminum body.
Which would be even more ambitious.
There obviously is a market for AC Cobra 427 continuation and kit cars. Is there a market for a more practical, more modern AC Frua based Mark II series? As much as I love the Cobra 427's they are really 6 month of the year, weekend when the weather is good cars. An Frua [especially a Fastback] is a much more practical car and could easily be a daily driver a solid 9 months of the year even in the US Rust belt [especially with a fibreglass body].
As for what I'd like in a AC Frua Mark II...
Powertrain/Suspension: I'd be torn between a hydraulic lifter [somewhat civilized] 427 and a 428 Cobra Jet. Not that the 460 isn't a magnificent engine in it's own right, it is, but I'd have to do some serious noodling about the powerplant. Aluminum heads and intake might reduce the front engine weight to the benefit of performance, handling and wear on the front suspension. A Doug Nash 5-Speed [or perhaps the current Mustang 5-Speed Manual] would be up to the task for a Manual Transmission. I'm sure Ford has something available suitable in an automatic transmission for a highly powered powerplant. Anti-lock brakes would be a welcomed addition I'd suspect by everyone. I wouldn't burden a 427 or a 428 Cobra Jet with Air Conditioning... If I felt I needed AC I'd probably go with a 460 plant.
Styling/Interior: I'd personally try to keep the original lines as much as possible, with a minimum of spoilers [only as needed to cool the engine and oil coolers], perhaps the option for clear headlight covers, smooth mount front turn signals might be a nice addition. Smooth mount glass would be nice but only if they can be opened as the original Frua for airflow in the passenger compartment. But if the Mark II was done as a Kit Car, people could fit them out as they saw fit [spoilers/dams/wings whatever]. I'd also prefer the early pattern 8 guage mechanical instrument cluster to the later 6/7 Gauge pattern. It would also enhance my driving enjoyment if the Mark II had iPod, satellite Radio and GPS connectivity/capability, especially on Grand Touring romps. Personally, I'd put iPod/Satellite Radio and GPS ahead of AC... I figure if I need to be cooler I can drive faster with the windows down!
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
[brThe modern, compact Bristol 'Fighter' comes nearest to my (imagined) AC460. The concept is very similar, but the Bristol alas is so, so UGLY.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Bristol_F2B_Fighter.jpg)
Zounds! Indeed! I agree!
Whoa! Wait a moment! It looks like there is another Bristol Fighter... [Sorry, I've been a WWI Aviation aficionado ever since seeing "The Blue Max" at age 9, so when I hear "Bristol Fighter"... I automatically think of Bi-Planes]... Here we go:
(http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/pics/BristolFighterComposition.jpg)
It's not bad, but I personally would vote for my method #1 above than a re-skining. But that's just me. The original Frua shape is so close to my optimal, I wouldn't want to stray too far from it.
-- Chuck
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville...The modern, compact Bristol 'Fighter' comes nearest to my (imagined) AC460. The concept is very similar, but the Bristol alas is so, so UGLY.
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck M...It's not bad, but I wouldn't want to stray too far from...the original Frua shape.
Ok, straying a little way from the Frua sape, but how fine is the line between 'HIT' & 'MISS'?
The achingly beautiful (IMVHO!) Shelby GR-1 project bears such resemblance to the Brizzle, (or should that be the other way around?)but Ford decided to produce the GT instead.
(http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Shelby-GR1.jpg)
(http://www.nextcar.com.au/i.ford.shelby.GR1.concept.Carroll.Shelby.04aug.jpg)
(http://files.indavideo.hu/vimages/048/857/1.jpg)
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I quite agree. A Mark II AC428 should keep all the best, trademark stylistic features of the original. That's very much a retro look, but updated to a 70's retro rather than a 60's one. Here's the 1970 TVR Tuscan - note the similarities to the Frua, but the much better (nose-down) front, achievable by lowering the headlamps. Derek Hurlock was perhaps too uncritical of Frua's offering.
(http://hsomerville.com/meccano/images/tvr.jpg)
Our hypothetical Mk II might also benefit from a more steeply-raked windscreen and an AMV8-style moulding under the tail to improve airflow and protect the exhaust.
A modern 4, 5 or 6-speed auto box would be a vast improvement, even with the original engine, providing a smooth kickdown and a 160+ mph top speed. And that track must be widened a good 4", by whatever means.
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
I quite agree. A Mark II AC428 should keep all the best, trademark stylistic features of the original. That's very much a retro look, but updated to a 70's retro rather than a 60's one.
When it's a continuation of the old model [with a few modest adjustments, it's not really "Retro" look just an update or a refresh.quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
Here's the 1970 TVR Tuscan - note the similarities to the Frua, but the much better (nose-down) front,
(http://hsomerville.com/meccano/images/tvr.jpg)
[skeptical look] Much better front? I'm sorry Howard, I really don't see it. Perhaps the under bumper spoiler area could be emulated, but I really don't see the TVR as an improvement over the appearance of the Frua design.quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
achievable by lowering the headlamps.
While there are certainly better and lesser ways to position the headlights for aerodynamic advantage, one still has to push the entire vehicle's cross section through the air. As a kid and a teen I liked the idea of lexan covers over sunken headlights [example the early XKE's] for cars which would benefit from them [like the Minstral, AC 428 Frua, Datsun 240/260/280Z's, etc.] but as I've grown older, I'm not so fond of them. Perhaps a way could be designed to add that styling touch to better slip through the wind in that area.quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
Derek Hurlock was perhaps too uncritical of Frua's offering.
Indeed, perhaps I am too uncritical of Frua's work, but I am hard pressed to scrap it's styling for nearly anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
Our hypothetical Mk II might also benefit from a more steeply-raked windscreen and an AMV8-style moulding under the tail to improve airflow and protect the exhaust.
Hmmm... I'd prefer to address the more obvious needs first: the engine bay heat needs to be dealt with more effectively, perhaps ceramic-coating the Exhaust manifold as well as a more efficient Radiator would be a good start. Perhaps a modest chin spoiler wouldn't drastically hurt the Frua's overall appearance while funneling more outside air through the radiator. Perhaps cooler outside air would also equate to an improvement in engine power via some sort of air intake routed through the nose as well. Perhaps a rear diffuser could be designed to tidy up the appearance and the airflow around the rear.
I've read reports that there was some difficulty with all of the engine weight over the front suspension... I would think aluminum heads might be a worthwhile weight savings that would benefit the handling as well as all around performance without a large expenditure of funds.quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
A modern 4, 5 or 6-speed auto box would be a vast improvement, even with the original engine, providing a smooth kickdown and a 160+ mph top speed. And that track must be widened a good 4", by whatever means.
I have long suspected that the AC 428 Frua's somewhat limited top speed is more due to a finite red-line and a three speed transmission rather than atmospheric factors. I'd like to think Ford has a modern automatic transmission that's capable of taking the 428's torque and has more forward gears. My 2006 Explorer V8 is rated at 292 HP [Net, not Gross] and something over 300ftLb's of torque and has 6 forward speeds. I'd like to think that Ford has something in it's truck line which can handle more power.
(http://www.motorbase.com/pictures/contributions/990913/std_1970_tvr_tuscan_coupe.jpg)
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/tvr-sports-cars-6.jpg)
The TVR is, well, interesting... But if I were to look towards other cars to steal body ideas off of for a Frua Mark II, I'd tend towards the Daytona Coupe or even the AC Mamba rather than TVR's...
(http://lynstjames.com/images/Goodwood%20Revival/Goodwood-O5-lsj1.jpg)
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop-800x600/daytona50_2w.jpg)
But that's just me...
However, another thing to note is that the Daytona coupe was also known to have issues with heat making it a less than optimal street car:
http://jimsgarage.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/the-missing-daytona-coupe-mystery/
I'd just as soon keep it as close to the original as possible, and baring that, keep it as close within the family as possible at least from the viewpoint of the casual viewer.
-- Chuck
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A Frua with proper gearing and a decent cross bolted 427 side oiler motor should out speed a 427 Cobra (in the straight of course). The MKIII would not go above 185 mph no matter the gears, and that's without the windscreen, it's a brick! The 428 coupe, with 6" longer chassis and much better aero, should be much faster than that despite the extra 500lbs. It should go like a Daytona probably or better (Daytona has only 350hp). With 5 speed and lets say .86 fifth and 3.31 rear, if the engine can spin around 6 to 6500 RPM you would be going about 200MPH! Ask Andy about his racing 428. AC used a pickup truck engine in the car with no cam and a tiny carb, the C6 box is very heavy and rubs much power, probably 30bhp. Since I converted mine to 4 speed, the car drives like a Cobra, it has a whole new personality. I think I will install a TKO with .86 5th for better highway cruising.
Emmanuel
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quote:
While there are certainly better and lesser ways to position the headlights for aerodynamic advantage, one still has to push the entire vehicle's cross section through the air....Perhaps a way could be designed to add that styling touch to better slip through the wind in that area.
I've thought about this quite a lot as well and I still think anything else will always be drifting too far away from the original precious (!) flavour. It could however be interesting to see a detailed drawing of the 428 with similar headlight covers as the Porsche Boxster.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/PorscheBoxster-428headlightcoversex.jpg)
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That Daytona is an elegant car, like an E-Type Jaguar merged with a modern XK. But the front is too modern-looking (too tapered in profile) for a MKII AC428. The latter, as a road car, would also need a metal front bumper and number plate, which the TVR manages to incorporate neatly. A large enough air scoop underneath, incorporating a subtle spoiler surely would solve the engine bay airflow problem, as Chuck says. Perhaps moving the engine forward 1/2" would also allow a sufficient air flow over the transmission. I'd be against perspex headlamp covers though; I don't think they'd make a significant difference aerodynamically.
Are there no aftermarket fitments for the Ford 428 engine? I had a Chevy V8 with go-faster headers, camshaft, electronic ignition etc. etc. These cost little, increased BHP by 40% and actually IMPROVED tractability and fuel economy.
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quote:
But the front is too modern-looking (too tapered in profile) for a MKII AC428.
Absolutely ! I never meant anything about the car whatsoever only the headlamp covers.
First point. I've always hated and still don't understand anything mechanically oriented at all ! And never will. [8D]
However I'm very much into design and I've been hooked on the 428 for over 30 years as being the finest example I've ever seen, also your early experiences pretty much follow my own. So believe you me I would leave as much of the original design in place as possible, and to be honest and happily subjective no Porsche and a heck of a lot of other similar car's designs have ever been of the slightest interest either.
quote:
I'd be against perspex headlamp covers though; I don't think they'd make a significant difference aerodynamically.
That wasn't quite my point and although I haven't a clue about aerodynamics either, it would be unimportant as the perspex or similar material (?) can always be replaced very cheaply. So whilst you can never gild a lily, this might just add an extra touch of elegance and grace to the front of an already almost unbeatable design.
Ça marche tres bien [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Howard Somerville
Are there no aftermarket fitments for the Ford 428 engine? I had a Chevy V8 with go-faster headers, camshaft, electronic ignition etc. etc. These cost little, increased BHP by 40% and actually IMPROVED tractability and fuel economy.
Howard,
The FE engine series have ton's of aftermarket goodies available, not as much as Chevy of course but nevertheless the possibilities are endless! You want 500hp, no problem, 700hp, 1250hp no problem what ever you want. Just converting the motor to Cobrajet specs will add 50 to 60hp. The frua being based on the Cobra 427 has tons of parts available for fitments, sway bars, shocks, wheels brakes, Aluminum rearend, Quaife differentials, modern 5 speed boxes, you name it! your wallet is the limit. Because the car is rare and because AC and Cobra owners add tons of aftermarket items to their cars, the value will not be affected if modifications are:
1) Improve the car
2) done testfully
3) are easily reversible
Regards,
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
A Frua with proper gearing and a decent cross bolted 427 side oiler motor should out speed a 427 Cobra (in the straight of course). The MKIII would not go above 185 mph no matter the gears, and that's without the windscreen, it's a brick! The 428 coupe, with 6" longer chassis and much better aero, should be much faster than that despite the extra 500lbs. It should go like a Daytona probably or better (Daytona has only 350hp). With 5 speed and lets say .86 fifth and 3.31 rear, if the engine can spin around 6 to 6500 RPM you would be going about 200MPH!
It is my finite understanding that top speed is mainly an equation of RPM's, Gearing and enough Horsepower to overcome resistance [both mechanical and aerodynamic] at the highest end speed. As long as acceleration time to that top speed isn't a major concern the engine size or mechanical details are not as vital to the situation.quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Ask Andy about his racing 428. AC used a pickup truck engine in the car with no cam and a tiny carb, the C6 box is very heavy and rubs much power, probably 30bhp. Since I converted mine to 4 speed, the car drives like a Cobra, it has a whole new personality. I think I will install a TKO with .86 5th for better highway cruising.
Emmanuel
I'd also think that the 6" longer wheelbase would allow for more overall cornering ability/power [albeit with a bit of a responsiveness penalty] than the shorter wheelbased Cobra's because of it's longer stance... But that may just be misinformation or misunderstanding on my part of the physics of that situation.
I can't profess to speak for anyone other than myself. So with that in mind, my vision for a Mark II would be to retain as much of the advantageous traits of the "Mark I" while addressing the most glaring of it's issues while keeping the end result in a similar flavor as the original.
I know Emmanuel you're an advocate of the 427 side oiler... I personally consider it the finest engine Ford ever made. But I personally would be hesitant to swap out the amicable 428 with it's admirable all-situations manners for the far more racing oriented [Get there first-est with the most-est [to paraphrase a American civil war general]] 427 . Actually, the past twenty years, I've logged more miles in cars with 427 powerplants than with 428's. Yes, I love the snappy-ness of the 427, but they are a handful in real-world situations in my experience. For me the 428 has the advantage in worry free fast all day driving/touring. I mean if all I was after was an acceleration, braking, cornering platform, I'd go the modern Cobra 427 Kit Car Route with no apologies or afterthoughts.
To me the first "problem" area needing improvement is the engine compartment heat issue. I'd think for me, second would be to try do some enhancements to the engine with an idea of reducing weight over the front suspension and perhaps enhancing performance. What you say about the Autolite Carb not being the optimal choice is TRVTH! I'm pretty sure that CF 7 sports it's original Autolite carb, and I remember vividly that the CFX AC I saw with my folks in Oakville, Ontario Canada in the 1977 timeframe had a Holley on it and it was the general consensus among my folks and I that so equipped it would have paddled CF 7's tail in a one on one contest. It'd seem like the carb used on the CobraJet 428's would be a good choice. The Third area would be addressing the AC428's somewhat lacking top end. While I'm sure a Manual equipped AC 428 would have a higher top end than a C6 automatic there probably are better options for both manual and automatic transmissions.
Less needing of attention [and hence optional in my opinion] would be wish list items like flush mount side glass and headlamp covers. I personally probably wouldn't want to add perspex covers to a Mark II of mine, but perhaps a way could be engineered where they could be easily be "dropped in" when desirable.
I guess though, in the end, when it comes to a Mark II AC 428 Frua, if it's done as a stretched Cobra 427 Frame with a Fibreglass replica body, the details would really be up to each individual "assembler" as to fitting out details. One person may choose to make their Mark II as close to the original as possible. Another might choose to squeeze in a SOHC Cammer 427 with a High-Perf manual transmission to make a Ford GT hunter. A third person may go with Chevy or Viper mechanicals. It'd be up to each person to fit 'em out to their own personal tastes.
-- Chuck
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I go along with those sentiments Chuck, interestingly a swing in the 'kit car' scene over here shows a renewed demand for the FE motor in 427 replicas, many avoiding the cost of a 427 side oiler by using the visually similar 390 FE with a stroked crank and of course the ally heads saving LBS in weight, as said massive potential in these leviathans!
Paul.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
Your early experiences pretty much follow my own.
Like a bird-watcher on the lookout for the rare and elusive Lesser Spotted Reed-Warbler, I'd always looked out for the AC428.
Considering that only 80-odd ever existed, the fact that between 1968 and 1981 I spotted no fewer than SEVEN of them (3 convertibles and 4 Fastbacks) on roads in Central and West London must be a statistical fluke.
It's sad to think that some or all of those beautiful birds were allowed to die from Iron Oxide disease, pushing the species to the edge of extinction.
One, a convertible, I'd seen before; it had been on sale at the London Motor Fair around 1978. Fully restored, its (replacement) 428 engine was stated to have been the very last one to come off Ford's production line.
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quote:
Like a bird-watcher on the lookout for the rare and elusive Lesser Spotted Reed-Warbler, I'd always looked out for AC428s.
Me too !! That and London office crumpet at lunchtimes [:p] [:p]
So you might be interested in my ridiculously effusive first post to the forum ! Scroll about halfway down to my first post on March 7th and follow the thread a bit.
http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=2
The crashed fastback btw was CF 62 which was later repaired as you can see from the 428 Register. Makes you wonder if the chassis was bent though and whether they can ever really be repaired safely or not ?
Cass [:)] ( Paul actually but as there's another Paul it's easier….)
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
I go along with those sentiments Chuck, interestingly a swing in the 'kit car' scene over here shows a renewed demand for the FE motor in 427 replicas, many avoiding the cost of a 427 side oiler by using the visually similar 390 FE with a stroked crank and of course the ally heads saving LBS in weight, as said massive potential in these leviathans!
Paul.[:)]
For me the real benefit of the 427, aside from performance bene's, are the cross-bolted main caps. My first car was a 1969 Torino GT Convertible with a 390/stick and it's a very capable engine. Probably more forgiving in daily use than it's more high-strung higher-displacement sibling. I know there are probably all sorts of benefits with Bow-Tie power in terms of parts [especially aftermarket] availability. But to me, there is just something inherently wrong with a Chevy [or Mopar] plant in a Cobra, or Mustang, or Shelby. And for me it's just as abhorrent to see a Ford plant in a Camaro or Corvette. Some things are just wrong! LOL!
Of course there are modern conveniences which I would like a Mark II to possess... A modern stereo system with integrated CD/MP3CD player [in-dash single or multi-disk would be fine], with easy fuss-free MP3 player [iPod] connectivity. Satellite Radio would be warmly received [especially on longer trips] and GPS would be a boon for Touring.
Perhaps a more controversial possible addition [again this is for an AC 428 Frua Mark II kit] would be Cruise Control. I know this is something that really flies in the face of the spirit of driver involvement when it come to the driving experience, but people who would protest the loudest have probably not driven across Nebraska on a overcast day. I spent an entire summer driving across Nebraska one afternoon [and if that sentence doesn't make sense to you, you've never been to Nebraska: for if you have driven across Nebraska on Interstate 80, it makes perfect sense].
Aside from those features, I am hard pressed to think of any other additions. Of course, sourcing original seating would likely be problematic, but I see that as an opportunity for owners to pick seating that appeals to themselves. There are probably some really nice Recaro or Schell seats which might be an improvement than the originals. Hmmm... This is an interesting link:
http://www.cerullo.com/sportsSeats/
Nice to see a section for Cobra 289/427 seating. I'd think the GT or SC seats would look good in a Mark II. And the F1 from this site is "Designed in conjunction with Carroll Shelby for use in the Limited Edition Series 1 Sports Car" interestingly enough.
Any other thoughts from the peanut gallery about what additions/changes they might incorporate in a AC 428 Frua Mark II kit they built [or had built turnkey]? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.
-- Chuck
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Chuck, whilst 'variety is the spice of life' is a favourite phrase of mine, sorry Chev lovers.. of course any AC or Shelby clone must have Fo Mo Co power..!
I feel that when we start to consider the interior trim for our AC 428 Mk2, there could be plenty of diversity as to; colors, seating for various sizes of pilot.. instrumentation, equipment, BUT.. any credible sports/GT should conform to this runt's insistence that ONLY REAL HIDE will do; I also like the fluted hide headlining as used in some old Ferraris (and some old airplane cockpits too..)
Paul.[:)]
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Once remember thinking that it was definitely a car for the single guy rather a family man. Where to put the kids and so on....all that space....
-
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Chuck, whilst 'variety is the spice of life' is a favourite phrase of mine, sorry Chev lovers.. of course any AC or Shelby clone must have Fo Mo Co power..!
No argument from me, after all I did say:quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3
I know there are probably all sorts of benefits with Bow-Tie power in terms of parts [especially aftermarket] availability. But to me, there is just something inherently wrong with a Chevy [or Mopar] plant in a Cobra, or Mustang, or Shelby. And for me it's just as abhorrent to see a Ford plant in a Camaro or Corvette. Some things are just wrong! LOL!"
And I firmly believe that if a AC 428 Frua were to be some sort of continuation edition, I am in full agreement. The powerplant would have to be Blue Oval and preferably FE block based if not 428 or 427 based. However, if the Mark II is basically a kit car where someone obtains a stretched 427 Cobra chassis [I'd think rolling chassis would be quickest and easiest for most folks] and then attaches a Frua body to it, then the powerplant becomes a matter of owner/builder choice. As does the rest of the "fitting out" details.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
I feel that when we start to consider the interior trim for our AC 428 Mk2, there could be plenty of diversity as to; colors, seating for various sizes of pilot.. instrumentation, equipment, BUT.. any credible sports/GT should conform to this runt's insistence that ONLY REAL HIDE will do; I also like the fluted hide headlining as used in some old Ferraris (and some old airplane cockpits too..)
Paul.[:)]
And here I thought my preferred option list including a stereo with CD/MP3CD/iPod integration [minimum] preferably with Satellite Radio reception as well, GPS and [Gasp!] Cruise Control would generate protests...
No, for me, even a kit Mark II Frua would have to have a block which started life as a 428 for it's powerplant [OK, I would strongly consider a 406 and 427 FE block as well]. As I've said, I wouldn't have any qualms about going with upgraded carb, intake and exhaust manifolds, improved ignition, or other reasonable and modest upgrades with the goal of improving the end result though. Of course, were I interested in building a racer... The 427 would be the way to go. I'm thinking tunnel port would be serviceable.
But who am I to dictate other people's vision?
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
Once remember thinking that it was definitely a car for the single guy rather a family man. Where to put the kids and so on....all that space....
Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids. It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car. I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.
I always thought that it would be an ideal Spy's car... I mean it'd have the performance edge over most anything 007 drove back in the day and was a far more exclusive car than the Lotus and Aston Martin's Bond was usually paired up with and with that big honkin' V8 in it, probably one helluva lot more reliable.
-- Chuck
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quote:
Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids. It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car. I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.
I was thinking generally, leaning towards increasing the MK 2's market share and not excluding those enthusiast family guys who might like to have their cake and eat it. Offering either a slightly longer body somehow or shortening the boot depth area to make much more use of the "neither one thing nor t'other" rear squab area which is really only suitable for small cases and odds and ends. In fact I've always thought this non mechanical area is the most overlooked and least thought out of all. A few more inches and possibly there'd be enough leg room to suit most 8 - 10 year olds ?
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
quote:
Well, Neither the AC Cobras [et. al.] nor the Frua's seem to be congruent with a family man with small kids. It's more of a Single Man's or Couple's touring car. I could see it as an Executive/Businessman's ride though.
I was thinking generally, leaning towards increasing the MK 2's market share and not excluding those enthusiast family guys who might like to have their cake and eat it. Offering either a slightly longer body somehow or shortening the boot depth area to make much more use of the "neither one thing nor t'other" rear squab area which is really only suitable for small cases and odds and ends. In fact I've always thought this non mechanical area is the most overlooked and least thought out of all. A few more inches and possibly there'd be enough leg room to suit most 8 - 10 year olds ?
Perhaps European 8-10 year olds... Most Yank [and Cannuck] Pre-"Tween-aged" youngsters are probably as sizeable as as "Tween" or even early teen-aged British youngsters these days. Even when I was of that age [I was 11 years old when I visited the UK with my family] we ran into a school group of boys my age at Stonehenge and they were much closer in size to my then 7 year old sister than I was. My folks asked me why I wasn't mixing with the local boys and I said "They are just little tykes!", to which my parents said "They are your age" I said disbelievingly "No! You're kidding!" but they were. I'm sure I have some pictures my folks took at the time, I would have been André the Giant sized in their school... And while I was one of the larger kids in my grade at school there were at least a half a dozen boys my height or taller, and a couple heavier. This was in the spring of 1973 [my god! nearly 35 years ago now! Hard to believe!]
However, I suspose one could "truncate" the Trunk [as it were] and might be able to scavenge enough room on the current back shelf for a bassinette, or perhaps for a Kindergarten aged child or maybe two for short trips, but I'd think it'd be a very tight and uncomfortable trip. Otherwise one would have to elongate the body and passenger compartment along similar lines as the Jaguar XKE 2+2 or Datsun 2x0Z 2+2 models and I'm not sure a AC 428 Frua Mark II+2 would fare any better in the press or among customers any better than those models did. But that's just me.
Of course if a Mark II was done as a Kit car, one could specify an even further stretched frame [perhaps an additional 6" or 12"] and then work on crafting a stretched body to match. A Mark+2 would probably have a Squared off Greenhouse:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Datsun_260Z_2%2B2_English_field.jpg/800px-Datsun_260Z_2%2B2_English_field.jpg)
Compared to the original [2-seater]:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Datsun_240Z.jpg/800px-Datsun_240Z.jpg)
[Thank you Datsun Z-Car's for stepping in to illustrate my thought] Unless, one was to spend a good deal of time styling for a better result.
I don't know... I just think it'd be easier to walk [at first] before making a lot of changes.
But again, that's just my opinion...
-- Chuck
P.S. I wonder how much trouble it would be to adapt a Z-Car's chin spoiler to provide a little more airflow into Mr. Frua's engine compartment... Hmmm... -- Chuck
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck M...It's not bad, but I wouldn't want to stray too far from...the original Frua shape.
For styling clues, look no further than the 1991 Aston Martin DB7. Its coupe body was perfect from every angle, the only one ever to be so.
I would start with that, and superimpose on it the AC428's distinguishing stylistic details - the squared wheel arches, the side vents,(slightly) raised round headlamps, and the roofline. A hybrid and a pastiche, but the best of the two best designs - surely a winning formula.
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The problem is that the DB7 is a very large car, the Frua quite small, when parked next to my Prius in the garage, the prius was bigger!
Emmanuel