AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: dkp_cobra on September 26, 2012, 08:49:56
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Not really cheap: Hyman (http://"http://www.hymanltd.com/search/details.asp?stockno=4707&suffix=11&recordcount=0")
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A beautiful car. What is generally the market pricing for a Frua?
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At current exchange rates the most expensive Fastback I've seen by about £ 50,000 but I guess nothing ventured, nothing gained, Hyman may well get lucky. But looks like a totally original and correct ( I mean standard as it may well have been restored ) looking example. Unusually the sills ( rockers to my American friends ) are the correct curved panels with the correct jacking points and the carpet looks factory correct also. The electric window switches are the correct factory fitted ones for this year build ( usually broken or changed by now ) and it must have been one of the last cars built with the fresh air ducting still in the engine compartment. I know the top hose is not original as it should be rubber but it looks superb in alloy. I'm guessing Emmanuel and Jeffrey you know this car well ?
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Great condition and an excellent example and I think the first 428 for sale this year ? Finally given up buying Lottery tickets as I think it's a seller's market now with so few around anyway.... [:(]
Edit: The last one I can remember sold was CF 42 last November for a reported price of £136,400....
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t16000925/cf-42/
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Thank you for the comments. It looks like an amazing car. It is probably worth the price!
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For that money I would have hoped for an AC badge on the nose!!!
Coupé owner & ACOC member Chuck Maddox, sadly no longer with us, recorded this Coupé, CFX 28, for sale on his website (http://"http://www.chronomaddox.com/motorin/frua/CFX28/Page.html"), possibly 2008, for $59k with 19,000 miles.
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Paul, I was at the Bonhams, Hendon sale at the end of April this year, 1969 RHD Fastback CF 46 was sold there for £ 77,600 including premium ( I think estimate was £ 65,000 to £ 75,000 ). Car was very nice but not perfect, a very sensible price. CF 42 was one of only 6 RHD examples so that might have caused a hike in bidding last November, after all you only need a couple of keen ( wealthy ) bidders to push a car higher than expected. I seem to remember CF 42 was estimated at about £ 80,000 to £ 100,000 in the catalogue so greatly exceeded expectations.
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By the way I see the car has had some nice detailing done since 2008, together with a $ 200,000 price growth, but as nikbj68 pointed out still no AC badge added !
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
For that money I would have hoped for an AC badge on the nose!!!
Coupé owner & ACOC member Chuck Maddox, sadly no longer with us, recorded this Coupé, CFX 28, for sale on his website (http://"http://www.chronomaddox.com/motorin/frua/CFX28/Page.html"), possibly 2008, for $59k with 19,000 miles.
Wow! I have seen Hyman on TV on "What's My Car Worth" on the Velocity Channel (not sure if you get that show in Europe) and he seems to be quite the wheeler dealer. That is a huge price jump and looking to be a bit optimistic on his part!
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Hi Brett, I think you would agree if you think back over the past 5 or 6 years that there's been fewer and fewer cars out of say a possible 65 -70 eligible ones left coming up annually for sale at auctions. And whilst there's been some wide variations in these auction results with average values across the board nevertheless always moving steadily upwards, the underlying trend of fewer and fewer cars coming up for auction is still increasing.
Whether it's because more cars are being sold privately always a very strong possibility I don't know, but the fact remains that the number of 428s no matter what specification coming onto the open market thoroughout this period has been steadily declining inevitably leading to a seller's market, and why I feel it's always going to be unrealistic to try to base 428 valuations on past auction results alone.
I do know that if I'd just won the lottery CF 28 would have been mine as of yesterday wheeler dealer or not !! [;)]
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lol well I hope you bought a ticket Paul ! I reckon that if you look back over the last 10 years, on average 3 or 4 Frua's changed hands every year either at auction or from normal dealer or private advertising. Some of these will be the same cars changing hands repeatedly as the market rises. I would imagine some are bought purely for potential investment or profit, and some simply rise in value to the point where the owner feels the money would be more useful than the car, such is the way of the world thankfully, otherwise no desirable classics would ever come back onto the market......... keeping my fingers crossed for your lottery ticket
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Hey what about those who'd sell their soul to get one ? Just ask Nik what it feels like.... [:D]
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That would imply I had one to sell to start with!
My entire life has had ACs running through it, so if you cut a slice through my soul, it would look a bit like this:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/Blackpoolrock1.jpg)
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(quote)
"Wow! I have seen Hyman on TV on "What's My Car Worth" on the Velocity Channel (not sure if you get that show in Europe) and he seems to be quite the wheeler dealer. That is a huge price jump and looking to be a bit optimistic on his part!"
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A little history about the dealer-seller of this car:
This is not the first AC 428 Frua to pass through Mark Hyman's hands.
Remember CF62? It was the subject of an earlier thread. He sold that one, so I'm sure his eyes are wide open in pricing this one.
Emmanuel has been offered (speaking of eyes) an eye-watering all cash price for his car - FROM A DEALER! (NOT Mark Hyman) - and his car is still in pieces!
Rarity, exclusivity, performance and CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!
It is thought by many that the lack of an "in-period" racing history for Frua's is a liability in calculating value and desirability. Seems to me that's not actually true.
Maybe it's the glow of the "AC" badge.
Maybe it's the "story" of it's heritage in light of the "big-block" coil-sprung Cobra. Want a Cobra (in disguise) you can actually USE? In relative comfort?
Maybe it's because there are so few of them, and, though flawed by a lack of development, they can be "improved" with adjustments and "in-period" or contemporary go-faster parts.
Want to be one of the few to have a real car that can squash the competition, yet still be economical and fun to run and maintain?
I'm sure Mr. Hyman knows what he's doing. And the price is not out of line for the potential audience of well-heeled collectors.
Considering the deferred or botched maintenance that has affected some of the 428's over the period they've languished in value, it's a good thing they're being bought by individuals who can (presumably) restore them properly.
As tempting as it might be, this is not a time to be greedy. Quality and satisfaction of ownership counts. Only good cars should sell at these levels - my opinion...
(sorry about all the quotation marks and parentheses. Just trying to be "expressive")
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another note about CFX28.
It was, apparently, a California car for a good portion of it's life.
Car + Southern California = no rust.
Here's CFX28 in the past inventory of Heritage Classics. They sold it in 1999- 2000, I believe.
It didn't have the nose badge then, either
http://www.heritageclassics.com/past-inventory/detail/132-ac-428-frua-.html
Not to get all uppity, but I know of a green LHD drophead that the owner (reportedly) refused an offer of $325,000 for several years ago. Last I heard, the price was firm at $375,000 - and the owner was not really interested in selling it even at that price. The Owner DOES sell cars, but he's keeping this one under wraps. The car is very close to "perfect".
Hmmmmm.... What's the "market price"? Depends, apparently....
How much do you lust for one, how soon do you need it, and how deep are your pockets?
I hope they remain "affordable" and get used on the road.
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I've always had concerns about the lack of MOT's in America as they are one possible way we have of keeping an eye on mileages covered. Most American cars that find their way across the pond to here have little history but invariably claim low 'genuine' mileages which can rarely be substantiated. When Heritage classics advertised the car they described it as a 'superbly original car with just 19,598 miles' . Look at Hyman's advert and you will see that today the car shows 16,829 miles !!! Somebody has been doing a lot of reversing...........
I would say Jeffrey that if somebody doesn't really want to sell their car they can ask as high a price as they want for it, as that is one way to help the values rise which is in most owners interest as lets face it, one day a car may have to be sold either for financial needs or for a change of vehicle or for health reasons. Super rare exotica will all increase in value in a rising market, the rarer the better.
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Agreed, Brett.
I am sure the owner of the "perfect" drophead would change his tune if he had to.
The lack of MOT's here in the U.S. does prevent easy access to valuable information about a car's true history.
I thought the previous sale of CFX28 10+ years ago was interesting.
Maybe the car was "restored", the engine rebuilt and the speedometer refurbished, reset or replaced.
Seems odd to go to the trouble of rolling the odometer back so slightly. What real positive difference could it make? It only serves to make the car suspect, unless theres a legitimate, disclosed explanation.
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quote:
Originally posted by lyonheart84
I've always had concerns about the lack of MOT's in America as they are one possible way we have of keeping an eye on mileages covered. Most American cars that find their way across the pond to here have little history but invariably claim low 'genuine' mileages which can rarely be substantiated.
I'm lucky enough to have a late 1960 Jaguar XK150 3.8 Drophead, I bought from the original owner (many years ago). I have a pile of reciepts going back to 1962 that document the Car's accumulated mileage, repair and whereabouts over that time.
In the USA, that's really all the reliable documentation one can expect.
Each State has the sole authority to license cars. So there's no clear, accessible and authoritative record of a cars history as there is in the UK, via M.O.T.. Too bad!
Here, you're left with the option of a careful examination of the car to determine condition, mileage, originality, etc., in the absence of documentation.
Which is why the ACOC forum and Registry is such a valuable resource for Fruas and all AC's. Selling a European car in the USA is potentially dicey too. As can be seen on the forum. Honesty and disclosure should be the default position.
Ahhh, wouldn't that make this a better world? Maybe?
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I think people in Europe rely too much on mileage which is really meaningless on a car that old. (Unless one is selling an ultra low mileage car in show room condition). My car was supposed to have 40,000 kilometers when I bought it, yet we all know what condition it was in! Mechanically and cosmetically.
Mechanical components can always be made new, but rust and rot in general is much more difficult and costly to repair.
California cars are among the most desirable cars because of the dry climate and lack of salt on the roads, yet they usually have very high mileage because of the distance people drive.
I considered buying CFX28 years ago when it was offered by a dealer in Santa Monica, it looked like in fine condition and I remember the mileage being around 35K, they wanted $60,000 at the time and I though it was too expensive.
It's unlikely that the sills need replacement since the car comes from the west coast. Mileage to me is like the matching numbers game on some old cars, what was not a matching number car yesterday is now a matching number car today all one needs is a set of dyes! Very unfortunate, thank god the old Ford motors weren't numbered.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Me again! (yikes!)
I'll second Emmanuels observation about mileage.
For me, the mileage is not a great concern. Condition is the important thing.
A really big plus (to me) about the 428 is the availability of ALL the mechanical parts.
If you throw a rod in a 428 --- No Problem! Not only are there NEW FE blocks being made today in both iron and aluminum (as well as every other engine component), with a little effort expended in searching, it's still possible to obtain used original, date-correct blocks at very low cost (if that's "important" to you).
(and with 428's, WHAT, exactly IS "correct"? There are no engine numbers, no clear dates of manufacture, very skimpy factory records. Who Cares? Same thing with "Shelby Cobras" ! "Original"? well......, sure!)
You can purchase a fully assembled, blueprinted FE engine for the price of a belt change on a Ferrari.
If you throw a rod and blow a hole in a Ferrari block, **poof**, there goes most of your investment in the car and tens of thousands of dollars, pounds, euros or Kroner just to get it running again. What fun is that?
Although everyone has different reasons for owning an old car, for me, making use of the car on the road is the raison d'etre. Staring at it in a garage and polishing it every month is kinda lame. Afraid to drive it? Why have it?
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Well said Jeffrey, I think the Frua value is finally reaching the level it should be at and for the following reasons:
1) rarity, this used to be a liability but I think it now works in the car's favor as more and more people know about them.
2) lineage, it's an AC and the chassis is straight 427 Cobra. Set up properly, it drives like one.
3) performance, one of the quickest 60's cars, big block appeal in this current era of "Fisher-Price" automobiles, especially in Europe. (Germany excluded[:D])
4) quality of the cars available for sale. Cars are now being restored and we now see quality cars at auctions
5) awareness, more and more people are now aware of the cars.
Emmanuel[8D]
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I went on the Hyman web site and noted that this car is no longer available for sale. Does anyone know its disposition? Did a member of the Club purchase it?