AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Mk IV, Superblower, CRS and other Continuation Cars Forum => Topic started by: Chafford on May 22, 2012, 22:53:53
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1989 AC Cobra 427 S/C 'continuation' on sale in the USA for $275,000 (£175,000).
http://www.billkempercobras.com/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.billkempercobras.com/Pages/PhotosCOX6136.aspx
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Interesting choice of wheels, spline rather than peg `Brands. Nice.
(http://www.billkempercobras.com/SiteImages/IMG_0380.JPG)
That`s about as good looking an S/C as I`ve ever seen.
(http://www.billkempercobras.com/SiteImages/IMG_0384.JPG)
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Hi Nick, am I missing something? Surely the wheels in the photo are peg drive. If they were splined, they would have a smaller 2 eared spinner, like you see with Rudge Whitworth wire wheels, which locks on an external taper rather than these where the mating face is a female taper machined into the wheel. Nice pics, but the bit I don't get is the price. Surely this car has the same provenance as a Mk IV Cobra, produced at the same time in the same factory by the same blokes! Add a couple of thousand bucks for the 427, and being built to look like a 427 S/C, but where does the other 100k on the price come from? Andy.
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Shep
As you say, all the Mk 111 Continuations are contemporary with the MkIVs - but facsimiles of the originals with 'COB' and 'COX' chassis numbers and historic parts that allow them to be registered as '60s Cobras with FIA papers. As you comment, what intrinsically makes Rod Leach's COB 5002 continuation worth £250k when his mint MkIV lightweight will only fetch £140k? Possibly rarity - only 10 of this run were produced (COX 6136 was part of an earlier run of continuations).
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii504/Chafford1/kDhQPY7k.jpg)
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Andy. Agree with you on the wheels. The pricing differentials are interesting. In 2001 AC were listing the Superblower (MkIV replacement) at £79,000 and the Continuations (and FIAs) at around £150,000 ( depending on exactly what engine was fitted). Actual prices paid were no doubt subject to negotiation. Working off this base the prices being asked for the Continuations do not sound too far off, and are presumably also negotiable.
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Aah. I thought these were the FiA type and on splines, hence no lockwires. But still, they are not the 'usual' 427 design with the 12 holes.
I recall the Continuation FiA car on the AC Motorshow stand with the Superblower, being offered at £125,000 , what would that have been, 1999/2000/2001-ish?
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The continuation FIA was listed at £140,000 at the 2001 NEC show - without taxes!!!! I'm still in shock. (and what happened to the 25-car run I wonder?)
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Nik.
They are the FIA type - but these were on pins as well. You can see them for sale on the Hawke site. The motor show was probably the 2000 one as, from memory, they had an FIA (polished alloy) a Superblower and a CRS on the stand. It was then and there that I started my discussions with AL that led to my having a Superblower built with modifications to make it as close to a MKIII as practically possible. The FIA seemed to me to be too much of a race car for road use and the advice AC gave me at the time was that the 427 can be temperamental and also quite nose heavy so, again, would not be as well suited to my needs. So far, 17,000 miles later, I have not regretted the decision.
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Cheers, Peter. I thought they were a straight swap for wires!
On the AC stand, I was told that if I wanted a continuation FiA, I`d have to get my order in fast, as over half of the 25 were 'in build' with 'orders' on several more!
I`m sure somewhere I have the promo postcards from the AC stand that had the pricelist with them, but do I really want to spend a night in the attic?
Having seen (and heard!) your Cobra on several occasions, I don`t think anyone could argue with your choices of spec & build, and most importantly, how you went about achieving them!!!(But that`s another one for 'off the forum')
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Having seen (and heard!) your Cobra on several occasions, I don`t think anyone could argue with your choices of spec & build, and most importantly, how you went about achieving them!!!(But that`s another one for 'off the forum')
Might be interesting 'on the forum' [:D]
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Chafford,
The pictures are dated Nov 2003. Are you sure this car is still for sale?
Malcolm
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quote:
Originally posted by AK1055
Chafford,
The pictures are dated Nov 2003. Are you sure this car is still for sale?
Malcolm
Malcolm
Still being advertised this month:
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/cobra/unspecified/1395598.html
At that price, a US sale is probably being held back by the lack of a 'CSX' chassis number. Perhaps a rich enthusiast could bring it back to the UK (assuming the date coded 1965 Nascar block allows it to be registered as a historic vehicle to avoid IVA regulations)
Mark
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Nik.
"Buy now while stocks last" has always been a good sales line - especially in the car business. In my various visits to the factory I only saw one in build so maybe you could have had one after all[:)]. Not sure what number were actually produced? Have searched through the registry and can 't find any record of the Continuation FIAs or 427s. Am I looking in the wrong places?
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They aren't recorded. However I seem to recall in 'ACtion' that a request was being made to AC for a list of 'continuations'
Most of the information below is from Trevor Legate's 'Cobra - The First 40 Years' (with a few additions on my part).
The following complete cars and rolling chassis were built to original specifications before 1996: CSX 3056-58, CSX 3070, COB 4000-01, CSX 4002 (title transferred to COB 4000), CSX 4003, COB 4004, CSX 4005-13 - all 427 style cars except COB 4004, a RHD 289 MkII initially exported to Finland (but apparently now back in the UK).
AC produced a further 16 continuation 427 cars, 9 of which were sold as complete cars for racing in the late 80s /early 1990s with a further 7 chassis in various states of completion - chassis numbers from COX 6133.
There were also two 289 FIA cars produced after Mr Lubinsky took over, the first with chassis number COB 1001 (in 2002), the second COX 2610 (in 2003).
Then there were the 8 427 'continuations' built between 1998 and 2003 with chassis numbers COB 5001 - 5010 (nos 5003 and 5009 not used).
Since Trevor's book was published - COX 5012 (Trevor's own car), RS 5037 and 5038 (Ace 2.6 bodies/with Cobra MkII chassis built in 2004 and completed later). RS 5038 is Gus Meyjes' car and has a 260 V8. The final car to be painted at the Frimley factory, COX 3361 is a red 427. COX 2615, a yellow 289 was also completed by AC Heritage after AC closed its UK operation. AC Heritage has also advertised COB 4007, another 427 recently.
Then there were the 14 cars commissioned by Carroll Shelby from AC with chassis numbers CSX 1001 upwards in 2005/6. There's also an FIA commissioned by Shelby from AC - CSX 7503
Here's CSX 1001
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/medium/020_17A.JPG)
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/medium/021_18A1.JPG)
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/medium/022_19A1.JPG)
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/medium/024_21A1.JPG)
And then of course there are the AC Heritage built cars such as COB 5014:
http://www.acheritage.co.uk/newbuildcob427~61.html
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Mark.
Thanks for this - I should have pulled Trevor's bible from it's hallowed place on the bookshelf. I presume that COB 1001 was the one I saw in the factory in 2001 when it was being built in the next bay to mine. At the time I think there was one completed and unsold Superblower (7018) there plus a 212, a couple of 427's and four or five (maybe more?) CRS's in build. Most of the other AC's there were MKIV's in for servicing.
The ill fated Mamba was also in build - but was away from the main production facility behind closed doors. Does anyone know what happened to that car? The last time I saw it was at the 100th anniversary event at The Chelsea Hospital in the summer of 2001.
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The point I was trying to make about values, was that the AC Factory was building 2 cars, a stock Mk IV and a "Continuation 427 S/C", next to each other in the same workshop, with the same craftsmen (Peter?). using basically the same materials for chassis suspension and bodywork. Yes I agree there would be a premium for the 427 motor, but I struggle to understand why the latter is now treated as some sort of Super Classic, which deserves a price comparable to a Thames Ditton Cobra. Where there is a market, the value of everything is what the market is prepared to pay, so let's see what happens. Aston Martin did a similar exercise with "Continuation" DB4 Zagatos about 15 years ago, which sold for hundreds of thousands to speculators. I can't remember any coming up for sale recently, but would be interested whether they proved to be a good investment.
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Question: are chassis and suspension of Continuation Cobras to original (1965) specification or are they using components developed for the Mk IV (Light Weight)?
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Andy, you seem to have responded to my question already (I did not see your post of 09:39:42 when writing mine): "using basically the same materials for chassis suspension and bodywork" as for the Mk IV LW, if I understand well
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The AC press release of 17th Oct 2000 states (re 427)
"available to special order at a special price-£150,000 this reflects the thousands of man hours required to hand craft the aluminium bodywork using wooden jigs in use by AC since 1962 and the considerable effort needed to source some of the components"
It also states "when we included the AC Cobra 427 in the model line up we thought we would sell one very occasionally. In fact this year so far we have sold 3 and expect further commissions soon"
The only offerings at this time (2000) would be just the CRS,the 212,but the line in the lucrative alloy 427 continued on from the Mkiv days?
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
The point I was trying to make about values, was that the AC Factory was building 2 cars, a stock Mk IV and a "Continuation 427 S/C", next to each other in the same workshop, with the same craftsmen (Peter?). using basically the same materials for chassis suspension and bodywork. Yes I agree there would be a premium for the 427 motor, but I struggle to understand why the latter is now treated as some sort of Super Classic, which deserves a price comparable to a Thames Ditton Cobra. Where there is a market, the value of everything is what the market is prepared to pay, so let's see what happens. Aston Martin did a similar exercise with "Continuation" DB4 Zagatos about 15 years ago, which sold for hundreds of thousands to speculators. I can't remember any coming up for sale recently, but would be interested whether they proved to be a good investment.
Recent original Shelby Cobra 427 auction sales (at current exchange rates): CSX 3127 £700,600, CSX 3228 £560,500 CSX 3249 (a low) £380,200; the latter was sold in Europe and had its original 427 replaced by a 289 in the '70s. The car now has a (non-original) 427 unit.
CSX1001 a continuation 427 Cobra built by AC for Shelby American in 2005, fetched £213,694 at auction. However it's worth pointing out that this car was Carroll Shelby's personal car, so that may have inflated the price.
Rod Leach's COB 5002 427 continuation built in 1998 has been on the market for some time - no price given but a recent 'Octane' article suggests a price for these cars from £250,000 - £300,000. COX 5012 which has a AC built body and chassis (in 2002) and was completed elsewhere is also still on the market. The dealer 'Private Collections' wants £225,000 for this car.
The 'buzz' words for all these cars in adverts are 'FIA' 'Historic' '1960s parts' 'AC Cars Certification' 'investment' 'good value for money compared to an original'
However COX 3361, another 427 'continuation'completed after AC closed its UK operations, only received a bid of £100,000 at auction last year, less than half its reserve price.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Originally posted by shep
Recent original Shelby Cobra 427 auction sales (at current exchange rates): CSX 3127 £700,600, CSX 3228 £560,500 CSX 3249 (a low) £380,200; the latter was sold in Europe and had its original 427 replaced by a 289 in the '70s. The car now has a (non-original) 427 unit.
CSX1001 a continuation 427 Cobra built by AC for Shelby American in 2005, fetched £213,694 at auction. However it's worth pointing out that this car was Carroll Shelby's personal car, so that may have inflated the price.
Rod Leach's COB 5002 427 continuation built in 1998 has been on the market for some time - no price given but a recent 'Octane' article suggests a price for these cars from £250,000 - £300,000. COX 5012 which has a AC built body and chassis (in 2002) and was completed elsewhere is also still on the market. The dealer 'Private Collections' wants £225,000 for this car.
The 'buzz' words for all these cars in adverts are 'FIA' 'Historic' '1960s parts' 'AC Cars Certification' 'investment' 'good value for money compared to an original'
However COX 3361, another 427 'continuation'completed after AC closed its UK operations, only received a bid of £100,000 at auction last year, less than half its reserve price.
That pedestrian dark horse (I should say snake) known as the Mk IV is looking awfully good, and what a deal for those in the know.
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pedestrian[:0]
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John. It all depends on who is sitting in the left hand seat[:D][:D]
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Andy.
Costs to AC around the turn of the century would have been greater for building a 427 than a Superblower but not, I would of thought, by a factor that reflected the asking prices. The motor and gearbox would be the major difference. With the exception of the supercharger, the 302 units were essentially free as they had been lying in a pile in the factory since 1993. The fabrication of various alloy ( rather than fiberglass) components such as boot ( trunk ) interiors inner wings etc. would also have to be factored in. I would presume that these items ( plus "period" brakes etc) would not add up to an almost doubling of the price.
As always it will be interesting to see what the various offering actually sell for ( if indeed they do and if this is then publicly known). I think there are also still 2 Superblowers for sale at the upper end of the 100K range in pounds and euros respectively - but they seem to have been on the market for a long time[:(] I am still hoping they make these prices in order to generate spousal approval of my "investment".
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinghorse
The AC press release of 17th Oct 2000 states (re 427)
"available to special order at a special price-£150,000 this reflects the thousands of man hours required to hand craft the aluminium bodywork using wooden jigs in use by AC since 1962 and the considerable effort needed to source some of the components"
It also states "when we included the AC Cobra 427 in the model line up we thought we would sell one very occasionally. In fact this year so far we have sold 3 and expect further commissions soon"
The only offerings at this time (2000) would be just the CRS,the 212,but the line in the lucrative alloy 427 continued on from the Mkiv days?
In 2000, the aluminium cars were the Superblower and the 427 Mk111. AC had the right to use the 'Cobra' title and moniker until June 2002, having been given notice by Ford to stop using it a year previously.
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Regarding the Aston DB4 Zagatos, one of the 1991 Sanction II cars just sold at Bonhams Aston Martin sale for 1.2m. probably reflective of the exclusivity of the cars.
John
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COB1001 (289 FIA with polished bodywork) was built prior to May 1999 and was complete when I visited the Brooklands works. The car was shipped to me in June of 1999 and I displayed it at the Shelby American Automobile Club convention in Michigan that July.
It was returned to AC late in 1999.
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The FIA I saw at Brooklands in 2001 was close to complete and painted light blue. Could this have been 1001 being refettled after being painted or did 2610 have a very long gestation period?
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I understand 1001 was painted Viking Blue and is the car that then came back to the USA with the abortive AC dstributor in Florida.
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Last I heard, 2610 was alive and well and living in Florida. Just like me (not)
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Quite a few changes to the 'Continuation' cars serial numbers over the years as 'Whats'aCobra's' post on the attached link indicates:
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/ac-mkiv/111704-ac-continuation-kirkham-5.html
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As AFN289 says, all the above points to Mk1V's being good buys.
As a long term owner of both 60's Mk11 289 and my Mk1V (AK1061) says, Mk11 has lighter feel and better when racing, Mk1V better as a road car.
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i purchased cox 6136 bringing it to the uk . [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by coxcobra
i purchased cox 6136 bringing it to the uk . [:)]
Congratulations, John, & welcome to the forum! That`s one damned fine looking Cobra,Be sure to bung some photos on here when it arrives!
[8D]
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very kind thanks . i have shelby mustangs this is my first cobra . will post pics for sure. she arrives tomorrow. want to get involved
with the club.
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Looks like a very nice car and should be a lot of fun! Hate to add to your expenses but if the car is still on the Goodrich tyres you may want to consider a swap to the Avons that many of us are now using with the 15" wheels. There are quite a few links on this site to discussions about them. Upside is that they have a lot more grip ( I had a car with Goodrichs at one stage and can attest to this ), downside is that they are not cheap and have quite a high wear rate.
Look forward to seeing some photos of it on British soil.
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thanks for that will look into it now. i need all the help i can get. i just hope she traveled well , you never know. she went from Chicago to new york by truck then was put onto a plane into Heathrow. cant wait to take her for a blast.
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Most seem to go for CR6ZZ 225/65VR15 at the front as the 245s are too wide ( for the MkIVs at least). They do a 275/55VR 15 for the rear which I have. These required some suspension adjustment on my Superblower to make them fit without fouling the arches under heavy cornering or bumps. There is also a 295/VR15 that may fit yours as the existing Goodrich in the pics at the beginning of the thread look quite meaty.
Hope the car has journeyed well and you get to enjoy it soon. Remember to keep your ( and passengers) legs away from the side pipes once the engine is warmed up as they can give a very nasty burn.
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Hahahaha... You should have left her there for a while, then you could have done the USA ACOC International! (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2444")
We all have our fingers crossed for you that the journey went well, Looking forward to your first road test report!
(Posting photos guide, click HERE. (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2560"))
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Thanks once again ! Will sort out the tires and post some pics when she arrives . Should be a interesting drive .
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Congratulations, very nice car, I like the only blue and black look. No stripes, no chrome, just pefect !!
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See previous my previous topic
New size Avon CR6ZZ 225/60 15 for fronts
This new size Avon should not rub the front GRP inner liners and has a slightly smaller overall diameter. They are available from BMTR Birmingham who will ship to you or your local tyre fitter at better prices than anywhere else. SB7019 - Peter these might just keep the nose down on your Superblower!
Regards
Malcolm
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Well my first problem will be registering this car . I noticed a lot of these continuation cars registered as a historic cars . Can anyone advise ?
What a pain !!!!
Many thanks
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Try Steve Gray at AC Heritage http://www.accars.co.uk/
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It is surprising how little is generally known about these Continuation cars that were effectively 'Sanctio 2' copies of the original 289 Mk2 and Mk3 coil sprung cars. A number of un-painted body-chaasis units also left the works, some of which were built up into cars or still await this. aome part-finnished rolling shells were also rescued from the official receiver when the factory went bust and finnished off externally. Of these, a few cars were flown to Shelby in the USA to be finalised by his team, just as they were in the '60's when they left the Thames Ditton factory. These cars are particularly desirable. COB 4007 left the factory as a race car and was campaigned with some success by Brooklands Motor Company with a degree of AC factory support and endorsement in the AMOC and Top Hat championships. I was lucky to be able to test drive thus car for an hour several years ago and it really was a fantastic machine - totally different to my Mk1V road car. A Mk2 and a Mk3 Continuation car was on sale at Bonhams Goodwood Revival auction and achieved relativley low sale prices. Perhaps there ougt to be a separate register for these cars so thhat thhey can be appreciated fully for the future...
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quote:
Originally posted by SJ351
It is surprising how little is generally known about these Continuation cars that were effectively 'Sanctio 2' copies of the original 289 Mk2 and Mk3 coil sprung cars. A number of un-painted body-chaasis units also left the works, some of which were built up into cars or still await this. aome part-finnished rolling shells were also rescued from the official receiver when the factory went bust and finnished off externally. Of these, a few cars were flown to Shelby in the USA to be finalised by his team, just as they were in the '60's when they left the Thames Ditton factory. These cars are particularly desirable. COB 4007 left the factory as a race car and was campaigned with some success by Brooklands Motor Company with a degree of AC factory support and endorsement in the AMOC and Top Hat championships. I was lucky to be able to test drive thus car for an hour several years ago and it really was a fantastic machine - totally different to my Mk1V road car. A Mk2 and a Mk3 Continuation car was on sale at Bonhams Goodwood Revival auction and achieved relativley low sale prices. Perhaps there ougt to be a separate register for these cars so thhat thhey can be appreciated fully for the future...
I believe a separate register has been started for these and post Frimley cars.