AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Recent ACs => Topic started by: Chafford on May 19, 2012, 21:33:21
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Came across these wonderful cars built (and restored) by David Wagner who imported a run of AC Mk111 427 'continuations' in the mid 1990s just before Brian Angliss's AC operation went under. David Wagner currently runs the operation with his son and also restores original '60s cars.
$140,000 (£86,000) will get you an exact (Kirkham) copy of an original down to the AC cars chassis plate.
(http://1-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1965-shelby-ac_cobra-289-7863-6469627-5-400.jpg)
(http://2-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1965-shelby-ac_cobra-289-7863-6469627-2-400.jpg )
(http://1-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1965-shelby-ac_cobra-289-7863-6469627-9-400.jpg )
(http://2-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1965-shelby-ac_cobra-289-7863-6469627-10-400.jpg )
(http://4-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1965-shelby-ac_cobra-289-7863-6469627-4-400.jpg )
(http://3-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1963-shelby-slab_side-redinterion-7863-3518193-3-400.jpg )
(http://3-photos4.ebizautos.com/new-1963-shelby-wagner_built_289-streetcobraaluminumbody-7863-3315059-19-400.jpg )
Dave Wagner's work (including photos of CSX 2553) can be seen in more detail here (takes ages to download unless you have 'Download Accelerator Plus' freeware but worth waiting for).
http://images.ebizautos.com/sites/7863/pages/David_Wagner_Built_Aluminum_Cobras.pdf
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I can attest to Wagner's work. I know him and met him at several events. His cars are built to the highest quality. He was very kind in assisting getting the springs for my Ace.
Gus
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I actually gave Dave his first "Cobra" ride ever in an AC Mk IV at SAAC Pocono in 1985.
However the "AC Cars" VIN plate is out of place/borderline fraud on a Kirkham that has never seen the inside of any of the places "AC" has inhabited including Malta!
Just my opinion.....
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark IV
I actually gave Dave his first "Cobra" ride ever in an AC Mk IV at SAAC Pocono in 1985.
However the "AC Cars" VIN plate is out of place/borderline fraud on a Kirkham that has never seen the inside of any of the places "AC" has inhabited including Malta!
Just my opinion.....
David Wagner makes it 100% clear he is selling a reproduction and the chassis number isn't going to fool anyone. However, I take your point. [;)]
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I am sure David is not trying fool anyone. I just am always amazed by people putting the Shelby or AC plates on a replica. They know they won't fool those who know, but certainly take pride in fooling those who don't and get off doing so.
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Well put MKIV
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Oh, Rick, I don't think it's quite that serious in many cases. I have a Kirkham 289 FIA and I wanted it to look like the real thing. At no point in time ever was my motivation to "fool" the laypeople or pretend in front of others it is something it is not. The fact is people want the "legend", but most can't afford it. And let's face it (license or not) putting Shelby badges on a Superformance 427 is akin to the same. [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
Oh, Rick, I don't think it's quite that serious in many cases. I have a Kirkham 289 FIA and I wanted it to look like the real thing. At no point in time ever was my motivation to "fool" the laypeople or pretend in front of others it is something it is not. The fact is people want the "legend", but most can't afford it. And let's face it (license or not) putting Shelby badges on a Superformance 427 is akin to the same. [;)]
Gus
I'm sure Mark IV aka Rick wouldn't dream of putting an AC or Cobra badge on his Superformances. [:D][:D]
And on the Kirkham, do you have a Thames Ditton or Brooklands plate. [;)]
Here's the original style AC plate from 1962:
(http:// http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5346053359_2eded0ee20.jpg )
An Autokraft Mk IV chassis plate from the early '80s (the Mk IV register has no information on AK1001):
(http:// http://photos.ecarlist.com/9m/sQ/hl/Hb/PQ/p8/AU/wF/Kl/3B/xw_800.jpg)
An AC Cars, Brooklands chassis plate from 2002 (the car is a Mk11 FIA continuation):
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii504/Chafford1/AC_Cobras_317.jpg)
And a Mk V plate from 2006/07 (AC doesn't advertise the Maltese origins!)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20011.jpg )
Mark
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My Kirkham has a Kirkham chassis plate. I was referring to Cobra badges on the nose and tail. Again: not trying to pretend anything.
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Call me old fashioned, but I would rather wear a real Seiko watch than a fake Rolex. Am I getting too old and grumpy? Where's my cocoa?
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Shep, you are a more fortunate man than most, so you get to drive and race the real thing. Good for you !!! Which makes it a bit easier for you to make that statement.
Gus
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Gus.
There will never be enough Originals to Satisfy the Enthusiasts who hanker after the REAL THING, Those of us with the Originals are only Custodians, who eventually hand them onto our Kids or new generation of enthusiastic Custodians.
For those unfortunate who have not a original then a Copy is the nearest and best thing ( Flattery etc), Lets hope our future Custodians are not passed on Copies as originals..[:(]..[B)]..
Most Important, What ever one has, Enjoy It, Use it and drive it like you stole it!..[;)]
PS... Andy.. We might have grey hair, but at least we have our original thatch.....
Keith..[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
My Kirkham has a Kirkham chassis plate. I was referring to Cobra badges on the nose and tail. Again: not trying to pretend anything.
You missed the smilies [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Gus.
There will never be enough Originals to Satisfy the Enthusiasts who hanker after the REAL THING, Those of us with the Originals are only Custodians, who eventually hand them onto our Kids or new generation of enthusiastic Custodians.
For those unfortunate who have not a original then a Copy is the nearest and best thing ( Flattery etc), Lets hope our future Custodians are not passed on Copies as originals..[:(]..[B)]..
Most Important, What ever one has, Enjoy It, Use it and drive it like you stole it!..[;)]
PS... Andy.. We might have grey hair, but at least we have our original thatch.....
Keith..[:)]
How would you define 'Real Thing' and 'Original' in the context of ACs?
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Designed, Engineered & manufactured by AC, & that probably only applies to the Pre War period with perhaps the 2-litre saloon post war!
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Hi Robin,
Post war Greyhound with an AC engine is about as much AC as you can get - did the PVT's and 2ltr car's not use a Standard chassis ?
If a car was/is produced in an AC owned/licensed factory with an AC chassis number and an AC badge it is an AC.
Maybe the above is to simple but it works for me.
David
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I'll get the popcorn....
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quote:
Originally posted by DGoose
If a car was/is produced in an AC owned/licensed factory with an AC chassis number and an AC badge it is an AC.
This has to be the right approach.
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You are probably correct about the Greyhound & yes the PVT underslung chassis cars did use the Standard Chassis as did SS100!
Most Pre War cars used purchased components such as axles, gearboxes, steering gear etc but all were engineerd into the car design, at least AC used the vital component of AC design the 'Weller' Engine.
From the Ace onward the car was basically a modified 'Tojeiro' which i have to say was a very smart choice by the AC management.
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Robin.
It would be interesting to follow the threads on the Aston Martin, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Lamborghini and Maserati owners club sites if the principles of your definition were applied to the majority of vehicles they have produced.
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Peter
I do have a proper Aston Martin, interestingly the first Aston Martin also used a purchased chassis i believe from Singer!however the chassis on my Aston was i believe designed by them.
Unfortunately there are very few car companies with original, undisturbed ownership with vertically integrated design & manufacture.
This is also true of other companies such as Wilkinson Sword, broken up & bits now owned by Shick & Gillett USA, a great shame! it like i suppose AC, has become a Branding issue.
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Robin.
Shame indeed - though many would not exist at all without the benevolence of rich parents. A quick scan through my fading memory banks suggests that only Ford, Peugeot and Mercedes Benz have contiguous ownership over the sort of time that AC has existed in it's various forms. Interestingly AC, Aston and Jaguar would probably all have disappeared in the 80's and 90's without the money and engineering resources that Ford made available. It is also worth noting that Ford is still ultimately controlled by the founding family who were strong influencers in the purchase of all three. I am somewhat biased in my views here, as their monthly payments to me over the past nearly 40 years enabled me to have examples of two of the three sitting in the garage. Sadly the 2nd is not an Aston as my wife finds Jaguar's to be much more comfortable.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
I'm sure Mark IV aka Rick wouldn't dream of putting an AC or Cobra badge on his Superformances. [:D][:D]
Correct.
I do not put "Cobra" or "AC" badges or plates on the cars. As far as I am concerned, they stand on their own. Now in reality many of our customers DO install such badges (Badges, we doan gotta show you no steenkin' badges!)but that is the choice they make and many do it just to avoid the "what is that" questions.
And when we showed the new 289 MK II we got the obligatory question from the guy looking at the knock-on, "Say, just what year "UNDO" is this????"
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Wow! Excellent thread! Gus, I know you are dead right, and I thank the Lord daily for all the gifts which I am lucky enough to enjoy. Today was a beautiful day, and this evening a couple of friends came over, and we drove in an Ace Bristol and Mk IV Cobra about 10 miles down country lanes to the pub for dinner. Even at 10.30pm on the way home we didn't need a jacket, and could smell the damp grass and the woods as we passed. It would have been lovely in any open car, but a brace of ACs can't be beat! I was also thinking about Keith's words about us being custodians, and I agree completely. The funny thing is that our cars have risen in value relatively recently. Before the hike, we were not custodians, but silly old gits playing with equally old cars. Go back 20 years and I bought my first Ace Bristol for 24k pounds. Five years ago you could have picked up any 428 Frua for 25k pounds, and about the same for a Mk IV Cobra. The Aceca Bristols were grossly undervalued too, which is now equalling out. Those with grey hair may remember the late 60s and early 70s when the AC Factory couldn't give Cobras away. Trevor knows better than me, but I seem to remember 2k being the going rate for a new one straight out of the showroom at the height of the Fuel Crisis. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and money always spoils the game. I was talking to Bill Bridges at the AC pub gathering at Runfold the other Sunday, and marvelling at his purchase of the Hairy Canary before the Classic Car world went mad. It has given him such a lot of pleasure, and good on him. Now where is that cocoa?
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quote:
Originally posted by shep...Go back 20 years and I bought my first Ace Bristol for 24k pounds. Five years ago you could have picked up any 428 Frua for 25k pounds, and about the same for a Mk IV Cobra. The Aceca Bristols were grossly undervalued too, which is now equalling out...
Not forgetting the most affordable of the 60`s AC`s, the Greyhound! Values are still very low for the most overlooked model of the period, to the point where (until very recently) the car has been worth less than the Bristol engine in it, hence several now have Triumph, Ford, or even Rover V8 power units.
You try finding one for sale at the moment!
I saw in an ACtion from 1984 a Greyhound without engine & gearbox but otherwise complete for £1400!!! Bristol engined ones selling for £4000. If I hadn`t been doing my O-levels that year....[;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Gus
Here's the original style AC plate from 1962:
(http:// http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5346053359_2eded0ee20.jpg )
FWIW, this is a later 'reproduction' tag, not one from 1962. [:D]
Besides, CSX2001 would not have had a footbox tag when new. [;)]
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Returning to the original topic, David Wagner also does a stunning aluminium 427. This was his own car which he sold in the US a couple of years ago for about £66,000 at today's exchange rate. Given the elegance of the regular 427, I've always wondered about today's obsession with side pipes and roll bars amongst the Cobra fraternity.
The unadorned 427 (and 289 Sports) shape is such a beautiful car:
(http:// http://1-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-1-400.jpg )
(http:// http://2-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_alumi num-streetroadster-7863-3315063-2-400.jpg)
(http://3-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-3-400.jpg )
(http://3-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-7-400.jpg )
(http://2-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-6-400.jpg )
(http://2-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-10-400.jpg )
(http://3-photos4.ebizautos.com/used-1965-shelby-kikham_427_aluminum-streetroadster-7863-3315063-11-400.jpg )
I would expect a car like this would cost around £100k if built in the UK, the same as the advertised price for a grp AC Mk VI.
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii504/Chafford1/63121215575201600x1060-1.jpg)
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii504/Chafford1/63121215584741600x1060.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Returning to the original topic, David Wagner also does a stunning aluminium 427.
...
I've always wondered about today's obsession with side pipes and roll bars amongst the Cobra fraternity.
The unadorned 427 (and 289 Sports) shape is such a beautiful car:
...
I could not agree more.
Jürgen
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
I'll get the popcorn....
And I'll get the Bishop's finger!!
Gus
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"Wow! Excellent thread! Gus, I know you are dead right, and I thank the Lord daily for all the gifts which I am lucky enough to enjoy."
In spite of the fact that I drive a Kirkham, I own a "bastard" in RS5038 and a true AC Aceca, I feel equally blessed. And I don't have any less enjoyment. I don't know what it is, but I love everything AC. I'm too young to really remember. There is an inherent beauty in the curvacious lines of the Ace's, 289's, 427's, Acecas. I can never get enough of looking at them and I can never get bored with the shape. Nothing about the lines is disturbing in any way. Driving them is sheer joy. Racing the 289 is sheer excitement.
Now, I'm gonna finish my day's work, take the long way home in my 289 FIA stepchild (like I stole it![;)]) and once arrived, let an icecold beer sink in and enjoy the day... Wow, these cars make me all warm and fuzzy inside...
Happy Friday everyone!! [:)][:)]
Gus
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Gus
With it's Mk11 chassis and 260 V8, RS5038 is a fascinating car. How do your fellow countrymen react to it? Many Cobra fans in the States appear not to know about the Ruddspeed Ace.
(http:// http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p222/AEX674/IMG_4950.jpg )
(http:// http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p222/AEX674/IMG_5001.jpg )
Mark
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People love it, think it's a Cobra or don't know what it is. Few ever heard about AC. That's the general public.
It took first at the Road and Track concourse last summer. good competition, no backyard car show. It's invited to Concourse of America this summer. This is a very high end concourse on this side of the pond. It got the two thumbs up from Jim Farley, Ford worldwide marketing chief executive and Cobra 289 owner and racer... And that's all nice, but what really matters is what I think. And I think I like it!! What a great car to drive!!
Gus
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Jim Farley's toys:
Including David Wagner (to stay with the topic of this thread) Built 427 street Cobra. Very nice stuff.
http://www.insideline.com/ford/jim-farley-driving-fords-future.html
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
Wow! Excellent thread! Gus, I know you are dead right, and I thank the Lord daily for all the gifts which I am lucky enough to enjoy. Today was a beautiful day, and this evening a couple of friends came over, and we drove in an Ace Bristol and Mk IV Cobra about 10 miles down country lanes to the pub for dinner. Even at 10.30pm on the way home we didn't need a jacket, and could smell the damp grass and the woods as we passed. It would have been lovely in any open car, but a brace of ACs can't be beat! I was also thinking about Keith's words about us being custodians, and I agree completely. The funny thing is that our cars have risen in value relatively recently. Before the hike, we were not custodians, but silly old gits playing with equally old cars. Go back 20 years and I bought my first Ace Bristol for 24k pounds. Five years ago you could have picked up any 428 Frua for 25k pounds, and about the same for a Mk IV Cobra. The Aceca Bristols were grossly undervalued too, which is now equalling out. Those with grey hair may remember the late 60s and early 70s when the AC Factory couldn't give Cobras away. Trevor knows better than me, but I seem to remember 2k being the going rate for a new one straight out of the showroom at the height of the Fuel Crisis. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and money always spoils the game. I was talking to Bill Bridges at the AC pub gathering at Runfold the other Sunday, and marvelling at his purchase of the Hairy Canary before the Classic Car world went mad. It has given him such a lot of pleasure, and good on him. Now where is that cocoa?
Andy , please remember that the Hairy Canary was a box of bits when Bill aquired it,he then spent a year rebuilding it, but I guess that box of bits would cost a feww more quid now !!
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Yes, I remember BB restoring every last nut and bolt on the Hairy Canary, but the end result has been worth the effort many times over. I have never bought a car with the intention of making money, and I believe BB is the same. If they were all worth nothing tomorrow, we would still enjoy them just as much. As Gus says, you can look at those beautiful body curves for ages and never get bored with the shape, and then you can get in and drive them. Life doesn't get much better.
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Andy a phrase you just used caught my attention - 'if they were all worth nothing tomorrow we would all enjoy them just as much' well what a profound statement. Absolutely the truth. Let us acknowledge that this sums up the ethos of the A.C.O.C. and were we all to put it in to practice then then the youngsters would get a look in. Let us adopt it as the Club Motto.
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Thanks Barrie, from you it is a compliment indeed. If only we could divorce these lovely cars from financial value, the world would be a better place. I have previously said that in many cases, the cars are now in the wrong hands, and are unloved status symbols locked away in private collections. Granted, the higher values do justify restoration in some minds, but the downside is that young enthusiasts are priced out of the market. The Bentley Drivers Club seems to have a better attitude to sharing their prized possessions with the next generation. At the BDC meeting at Silverstone on Saturday 11th August, you will see dozens of fabulous pre-war cars, being driven by 20 year olds. More so than in any other marque that I know. Back to your point Barrie, let's make it the ACOC ethos to share our cars with the next generation, and encourage them to be used as they were intended!
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Nice dream, only works if you have entry level cars available on the market at around the £25 - £30k mark.
It also calls for a better acceptance of later AC products ie Mk IVs, CRS , MEs and Ace "Brooklands" none of which is as readily available as entry level Bentleys/Ferraris/Astons etc.
Also requires some form of "associate" membership for selected continuation models (Shelbys, Kirkhams, Hawks etc) which could conceivably come into reach of younger members.
At the present rate of climb cars sold at these levels will be in permanent storage loaned out for static display and the next tranche of owners will be so far removed from regional club meets and muddy fields that a new club "The AC Enthusiasts Club" will be formed. [:)]
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I think the idea of acceptance and associate membership is very good.
I became an AC enthusiast only after building my first replica Cobra. Than the hobby got out of hand, like for many of us, and I built a Kirkham, shortly followed by restoring an Aceca and completing a "late" model Ac 2.6 Ace.
And, not to open up a can of worms again, I would like to see a bit more consistent view on what is considered a "real" Ac. My RS 5038 was not accepted as such by the club's registrar stating it did not drive out of the factory in Thames Ditton and was completed with parts not supplied by AC later. This, of course, is true for a lot of "registered" cars, as we've seen on this forum and the story about the destroyed in a fire and brought back to life 2.6 Ace.
It's about the enjoyment of using these cars, not about snooty attitudes...
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by CRS9505: Nice dream, only works if you have entry level cars available on the market at around the £25 - £30k mark.
It also calls for a better acceptance of later AC products ie Mk IVs, CRS , MEs and Ace "Brooklands" none of which is as readily available as entry level Bentleys/Ferraris/Astons etc...
You want entry-level? How`s about the prototype Brooklands Aceca coming up at Coys, guided at £13k-£16k? Click pic to go to auction catalogue:
(http://www.coys.co.uk/images/items/large/1764-0.jpg) (http://"http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?itemID=1764&auctionID=24")
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Shep.
Good point on the BDC and I certainly hope one of my daughters will be driving my car when I have departed this world.
Best example of the Bentley boys are the Morley family. Great grandfather John was, I believe, the first in the line, ( BTW soon after WW2 he was bequeathed the Birkin that just sold for over £5M), followed by grandfather Peter ( who used to own the 24litre Napier that can still be smoking its rear tyres at the end of a straight) father Clive and the latest generation, Stuart and James. The latter 4 can often be seen racing against each other at various events. Stuart recently married my neighbours daughter so there is a chance that a further generation will be on the track in the foreseeable future.
There are usually a few AC's competing at the BDC meeting and there is always good racing and a good atmosphere there.
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Nik - don't you just love the "Shelby" association in the catalogue description (great for search engine crawlers) but does it run and is it another prototype with a £30k reserve like the ebay Heritage Aceca.
The previous comment re the Bentley driving family yet again illustrates the added value of classic cars as investment vehicles for the purposes of Inheritance Tax. (Passing on valuable cars has become as tax efficient as passing on farms) [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by CRS9505
Nice dream, only works if you have entry level cars available on the market at around the £25 - £30k mark.
It also calls for a better acceptance of later AC products ie Mk IVs, CRS , MEs and Ace "Brooklands" none of which is as readily available as entry level Bentleys/Ferraris/Astons etc.
Also requires some form of "associate" membership for selected continuation models (Shelbys, Kirkhams, Hawks etc) which could conceivably come into reach of younger members.
At the present rate of climb cars sold at these levels will be in permanent storage loaned out for static display and the next tranche of owners will be so far removed from regional club meets and muddy fields that a new club "The AC Enthusiasts Club" will be formed. [:)]
If you're going to attract younger enthusiasts to the ACOC you would need to broaden your associate membership to Dax, Gardner Douglas and AK. This would bring new blood into the club and help dispel the widespread view that the ACOC is an old fashioned, elitist organisation. At ACOC events you could have a separate category for replicas. The Dax owner welcomed this way would more likely buy a CRS or another AC model if such an associate membership were offered.
And who wouldn't welcome the owner of a car like the AK below into the ACOC?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott_boulton/7443819230/in/pool-906682@N20/lightbox/
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
Thanks Barrie, from you it is a compliment indeed. If only we could divorce these lovely cars from financial value, the world would be a better place. I have previously said that in many cases, the cars are now in the wrong hands, and are unloved status symbols locked away in private collections. Granted, the higher values do justify restoration in some minds, but the downside is that young enthusiasts are priced out of the market. The Bentley Drivers Club seems to have a better attitude to sharing their prized possessions with the next generation. At the BDC meeting at Silverstone on Saturday 11th August, you will see dozens of fabulous pre-war cars, being driven by 20 year olds. More so than in any other marque that I know. Back to your point Barrie, let's make it the ACOC ethos to share our cars with the next generation, and encourage them to be used as they were intended!
You only have to look at the lack of owner involvement on the Thames Ditton Cobra forum to see evidence of this.
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
....I would like to see a bit more consistent view on what is considered a "real" Ac.
Always a difficult one with obviously many shades of opinion but I personally tend to see it all as a question of degrees of originality whether it's an old car or say an original work of art such as an old and very valuable oil painting conclusively proven by the experts to have been painted by Michelangelo, Rembrandt or Botticelli. Or whether it was an original to start with that was later finished off by one of their pupils, or one completed in the style of the Master long after he was dead.
Just my take on it all....[;)]
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Here's the original style AC plate from 1962:
(http:// http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5346053359_2eded0ee20.jpg )
The Cobras were not fitted with chassis tags in 62.