AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Ace 'Brooklands' Forum => Topic started by: Alison Kingdon on October 31, 2011, 08:52:43
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Hi I have been left a AC Ace Brooklands. Unfortunately the electric hood is not working.
Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In the process of trying to replcae the ECU.
What else should should be checked.
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Hi Alison, Welcome to the forum.
I don't know how technical you are but hope this info may help.
There are at least two fuses involved, one for the hydraulic pump and one for the ecu. As far as I know both are in the boot and may be near the battery but I am not sure.
The main switch for up/dowm may be faulty, this would have to be tested with volt meter etc to prove good or bad.
There are also several small switches, one on the handbrake lever to ensure you are stationary when operating the hood, one on the hood lid catch to ensure the catch is released before the hydraulic rams try opening it, and at least two possibly three more on the hydraulic rams themselves to ensure one procedure has finished before the next one starts.
I have also found that the ecu is very voltage sensitive in that if the battery voltage is down in the slightest then the hood will not operate, fully charged battery or engine running and all works fine.
As you can see from the above, you will have to be very carefull because if the rams operate when they should not you will cause a lot of damage.
The hood can be lifted or lowered manually but it will take a lot of effort to force the oil around the system and can only be done slowly because of this.
If you do try manually, have somebody operate the hood as normal, eg, ignition on, handbrake on and press the up or down. Assuming the hood is down, first of all listen for the hood catch operating, if this clicks try lifting the hood lid. If the resistance of lifting the hood varies depending on if the up button is depressed or not this may indicate that the ecu is working and opening the hydraulic valves but the pump itself is not working. If the hood is up (and bearing in mind you have just got the vehicle) you have to manually operate the locking handle on the hood and then push the hood up and back until the front section is nearly vertical before the hood will operate via the hydraulics.
Hope this helps.
Wally
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Hi Alison,
Welcome to Ace ownership.
Several things to check prior to replacing the ECU (if you can find one)
Power hood problems are a well known issue with these cars so it would be worth scanning through previous forum posts.
Some basics.
If motor doesn't run.
Check fuses in boot!
Check micro switch's on right of hood frame and handbrake mechanism (hood should only work if hand brake is applied)maybe late cars only !
If motor runs
Check fluid level in pump reservoir.
If fluid level OK clean out any sludge and refill.
If fluid is low, re-fill and check hydraulic pipes and rams for leaks.
Check wiring harness and plugs.
The pump, solenoids and manifold are all standard Peugeot 306 Cabriolet so readily available via e-bay. The ECU looks like the Peugeot unit but is bespoke to AC.
The original manufacturers of the ECU (Dutch company whose name I can't remember)
weren't interested in servicing or repairing my ECU when I contacted them last year.
If you have to change the Hydraulic fluid the hood has to be raised and lowered manually to prime the rams.
Does the power hood light stay constant or does it flash when activated?
David
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Hi Alison. I rarely look at the forum these days, so have only just seen your request for info regarding hood problem. Have you sorted the problem?
My Ace came minus hood and a few years ago I was fortunate in obtaining one. However, fitting and getting it to work proved a major challenge. As a consequence I gained a fair knowledge of its workings. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.
Max
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Hi Alison,
It's possibly a bit late in the day but get in touch with Autotek, Unit 11, Wessex Trade Centre,Ringwood Road,Poole, Dorset BH12 3PQ. Their phone number is 0871 983 7424. I've used them twice, once to repair the hood ECU and the second time to check it after the hood mechanism stopped working a couple of years ago. They charged me about £300 I seem to remember and also told me that all the circuitry was the saem as for a Ferrari 355 Cabriolet! The ECU for one of those is about £2500 I've been told! They also repair all sorts of other auto electrical stuff from airflow meters, fuel injection and engine ECUs of all types. Not exactly cheap, but highly recommended!
quote:
Originally posted by Alison Kingdon
Hi I have been left a AC Ace Brooklands. Unfortunately the electric hood is not working.
Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In the process of trying to replcae the ECU.
What else should should be checked.
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Hi Max,
I'm hoping your visits are a little more frequent and you pick this message up!
I have a 1995 Ace and the hood has given up the ghost. The ECU checks out (see my other post to Allison on this) and both fuses are fine (5 amp and 30 amp close to battery). The pump motor is newish, fluid level fine and no leaks. I don't get any of the leds lighting on the dash when the ignition is turned on although they always used to work. The hood operating switch checks out but I'm not getting any power appearing at it for some reason. At the same time as I lost the hood operation, the wipers stopped the intermittent function. Could the two be connected? Does the primary live feed to the hood switch come from the ignition switch? I've yet to take the dash out but I suspect the problem in my case is somewhere there. Any suggestions on dash removal for access would also be welcomed!!
Thanks for any help!
Regards,
Patrick.
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Hi Alison. I rarely look at the forum these days, so have only just seen your request for info regarding hood problem. Have you sorted the problem?
My Ace came minus hood and a few years ago I was fortunate in obtaining one. However, fitting and getting it to work proved a major challenge. As a consequence I gained a fair knowledge of its workings. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.
Max
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quote:
Originally posted by Alison Kingdon
Hi I have been left a AC Ace Brooklands. Unfortunately the electric hood is not working.
Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In the process of trying to replcae the ECU.
What else should should be checked.
There are a few manuscript notes in the archive, which probably originated at Brooklands or Frimley.
One confirms AutoTeck at Poole BH12 3PQ for hood ECU repairs. (See post above.)
A personal recollection from visiting Brooklands circa Y2000 is of development work continuing on the hood mechanism, and the use of some Audi components. Having the door windows down a fraction was also essential and failure to do so would result in broken glass!
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Oh dear! Think I should have kept my mouth shut – reckon I’ve forgotten most of what I learnt about the vagaries of Brooklands hood operation. To make matters worse I seem to have lost the CD I had containing Brookland wiring diagrams - not that I ever found it much use – nothing ever tallied.
Patrick, you say you’ve checked the 5 amp line fuse, but don’t say if you have 12v at the fuse with ignition ON? If yes, problem is likely to be one of the relays or micro switches. If not, its likely circuit is protected by another fuse in the main fuse box, which has blown (which might explain the loss of intermittent wipers). If you have 12v let me know and I’ll put myself on a crash refresher course and hopefully come up with some pointers.
Cheers
Max
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Most kind of you Sir!
I shall take a look at the wiring over the next couple of days to see if there's any current flowing. I suspect not. I'm still fairly convinced that the problem lies behind the dash somewhere. I've checked the main and subsid fuse boxes and all is in order. Relays are a bit trickier. The key symptom would seem to be that there's no power appearing at the hood up/down switch. I thought of taking a direct feed to the switch to see what happens but I'm not too sure if that's a good idea or not. Any thoughts on that one? Anyway, many thanks for your response. I'll let you know what happens - hopefully it won't be yet another Ace fire......
Regards,
Patrick.
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Oh dear! Think I should have kept my mouth shut – reckon I’ve forgotten most of what I learnt about the vagaries of Brooklands hood operation. To make matters worse I seem to have lost the CD I had containing Brookland wiring diagrams - not that I ever found it much use – nothing ever tallied.
Patrick, you say you’ve checked the 5 amp line fuse, but don’t say if you have 12v at the fuse with ignition ON? If yes, problem is likely to be one of the relays or micro switches. If not, its likely circuit is protected by another fuse in the main fuse box, which has blown (which might explain the loss of intermittent wipers). If you have 12v let me know and I’ll put myself on a crash refresher course and hopefully come up with some pointers.
Cheers
Max
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Hi Patrick
Many of the components controlling hood operation are connections to earth, so don’t recommend tracking down the cause of problem by indiscriminately applying 12v and “blowing” something. Ideally use a volt meter to check continuity and voltages.
I’m almost certain the up/ down switch is an earth connection, but without the wiring CD (which currently I can’t find) I can’t be certain. Worst case scenario, I’ll check out relays on my own car and report back what to expect at various terminals, but first check you have 12v at fuse.
Max
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Hello Max,
When your CD turns up would it be possible to purchase a copy?
There are certainly differences to the wiring harnesses on the cars I own but a schematic of some sort would be very useful.
Many thanks for your previous posts on hood issues, very helpful.
Kind regards,
David
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quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
........... without the wiring CD (which currently I can’t find)............ Max
Hi Max,
When your CD turns up,could we have a copy for the AC Owners' Club Archive please?
Regards, John
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Hello everyone,
I have a CD which I will copy and send down. You need Turbo Cad to open it though. I had trouble with my hood but it is now working.
To start the process here are the basic operations which everyone else has mentioned:
1.Hand brake on
2.Lower windows to half open at least
3.Undo center catch and open the hood about a foot
4.Operate the switch either way and the red light in the switch should light up. I think it is back to lower
Sometimes the hood will complete the whole cycle. sometimes it stops and I have to release the switch and then press again. You have to hold the switch for the duration of the operation.
If the light does not come on has the bulb blown in the switch? This may break the circuit if it has, but do not know for sure.
Good Luck
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We have used "Free DWG Viewer" to view the wiring diagrams.
Link - http://www.bravaviewer.com/download.htm
You will find it at the bottom of the download page.
Hope this helps.
Wally
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First of all, many thanks to all of you for contributing to this particular thread. Next, Max, I've tested the 3 amp fused circuit to see what I'm getting in the way of voltage, and here are the (confusing) results! Ignition off - battery showing 12.54 volts (been standing for a couple of weeks). With the ignition off, I'm getting 3.54 to 3.62 volts showing at the fuse holder with the fuse out. Ignition on - 3.39 volts across the fuse holder. Engne running gives 6.29 volts at the same fuse holder. The battery is getting 14.6 to 15.2 volts with the engine running. I've checked the fuses behind the centre panel and under the bonnet in the main fuse box but none are blown. I'm now more confused than ever.....!!! Regards, Patrick.
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Patrick, are you sure you’re checking the “live” side of the fuse. I’ve never checked voltage at ecu side of fuse, but ecu works on 5v so guess its possible you’re measuring leakage across ecu from hydraulic side of mechanism fed via 30 amp fuse.
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As there are other copies of the CD in circulation (including mine because my partner assures me I did lend it out) perhaps they could assist Patrick by sketching the hood circuitry, scan/take photo and post diagram here.
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Hi Max.
The wire to the 3 amp fuse is taken from the +ve post of the battery. The wire from the other side of the fuse disappears behind the fuel tank. Should I be measuring the voltage by connecting this second wire through the meter to earth? Car wiring is a bit of a mystery to me so I need all the help I can get. I did rewire a Daimler 420 Sovereign some 16 years ago and everything has worked faultlessly ever since, but I did have a full wiring diagram available![^]
Unfortunately, it's pouring with rain and the car is in an outside Carcoon so it could be a day or so before I get the chance to look at things again. I've found a new wiper switch (Granada Mk 3) on eBay so will replace the existing (possibly) faulty one which will hopefully remove one problem from the mix! That CD sounds a useful addition to the arsenal - count me in when it becomes available; please let me know payment details!
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Patrick, are you sure you’re checking the “live” side of the fuse. I’ve never checked voltage at ecu side of fuse, but ecu works on 5v so guess its possible you’re measuring leakage across ecu from hydraulic side of mechanism fed via 30 amp fuse.
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As a point of interest, the red light that comes on when hood is in operation is not indicator of voltage to the circuit, but indicates the pressure release solenoid is energised closed and hydraulic system pressurised. The solenoid is de-energised by micro switch attached to hood cover latching mechanism (circuit is earthed when latch locks closed). Solenoid is also de-energised when ignition is switched off.
The micro switch has two sets of contacts. When the rocker switch is set to raise hood (pushed in at the top) electric actuator releases hood cover latch and m/s changes solenoid circuit from”earth”connection to “open” circuit thus closing solenoid valve and permitting pump to pressurise system. At the same time, the second pair of m/s contacts close completing a second circuit to earth. This circuit energises the relay that sets in motion the “lift” operation.
Hope this makes some kind of sense to those interested.
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Oh! Right then........
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Patrick - it can get difficult trying to explain things you can try, so sent you an email with my number. One option is to try parially lifting hood manually and seeing if hydraulics then work.
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In the goodness knows how many years I've owned this beast, the hood has sometimes co-operated, sometimes not. I've tried almost every position of the hood and the sequence of events, sometimes with success, sometimes not. This time, nothing moves, buzzes, pumps, clicks, hisses or anything of note. Rather like the Monty Python dead parrot sketch in fact. I suspect that some wiring has become dislodged behind the dash, a power feed of some sort. At the moment, I've got the centre panel out and also the screws at either end of the dash. I can't find the remaining fixing points to get fully behind the dash though. Flexing the dash allows a certain amount of access but I'm nervous that something might just go 'bang' under the stress. On top of all the current problems, the heating is grossly over enthusiastic and the clutch judders like nothing on earth on take off. Still love the car though, apart from the wet carpets and water leaks that is.......
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Sorry Patrick – I didn’t mean to appear patronising, but the majority of folk don’t seem have much idea how to go about nursing defunct mechanics back to life.
In the light of your problems I tried the hood on my own car yesterday for the first time in many months – low and behold it didn’t work.[:0] Only when I raised the cover manually did it function albeit in rather erratic manner. (It is certainly true the hood should only be operated using a fully charged battery or with the engine running, otherwise it’s liable to tying itself in knots. However, In my case, operating the hood with engine running I didn’t hear the hydraulics continue straining to close the cover when already closed until a “bang” when couple of hinge screws pull out of the cover.[:(!]) However, operating the lift switch I did notice a “click” each time from behind the dash, so suspect there’s another relay lurking in there somewhere controlling hood electrics. But it is difficult to advise where to look next without the wiring diagram. I’ve been promised a replacement for the CD I lent out (never returned), but wait with baited breath for it’s arrival! In the meantime, shame no one has sketched the wiring diagram and posted it on the forum.
Regards voltages at fuses, I read 12v both ends of 5 amp fuse, which is a bit of a nonsense, so am inclined to disregard the discrepancy you observed. If it’s of any help, later in the week I’ll get someone to flick the operating switch while I attempt and identify which wire from switch connects to which terminal on which relay in boot. If you can eliminate the switch as culprit it will save pulling the dash out unnecessarily, although I’d be interested to know myself how it’s held in. (Intending to dump the auto box currently fitted, I imported a 6-speed Tremac, but have been partially put off fitting it, by the prospect of removing the dash to get at gear select mechanism.)
Over enthusiastic heater – luck you! Whether hot air or air con cold - never get much of either out of mine.
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Hi Max! You're not patronising at all my good friend! It's just that my electrical skills are struggling at the best of times! I'm OK if I can see the bits and pieces, or hear them doing something - it all gets tricky when I don't know where most of the bits are...... Many thanks for sending me your phone number. I'm not sure when the best time is to contact you but I suspect evening time might be the most convenient for you. Anyway, I look forward to talking the electrics through with you - hopefully we'll both end up with a working hood!
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Sorry Patrick – I didn’t mean to appear patronising, but the majority of folk don’t seem have much idea how to go about nursing defunct mechanics back to life.
In the light of your problems I tried the hood on my own car yesterday for the first time in many months – low and behold it didn’t work.[:0] Only when I raised the cover manually did it function albeit in rather erratic manner. (It is certainly true the hood should only be operated using a fully charged battery or with the engine running, otherwise it’s liable to tying itself in knots. However, In my case, operating the hood with engine running I didn’t hear the hydraulics continue straining to close the cover when already closed until a “bang” when couple of hinge screws pull out of the cover.[:(!]) However, operating the lift switch I did notice a “click” each time from behind the dash, so suspect there’s another relay lurking in there somewhere controlling hood electrics. But it is difficult to advise where to look next without the wiring diagram. I’ve been promised a replacement for the CD I lent out (never returned), but wait with baited breath for it’s arrival! In the meantime, shame no one has sketched the wiring diagram and posted it on the forum.
Regards voltages at fuses, I read 12v both ends of 5 amp fuse, which is a bit of a nonsense, so am inclined to disregard the discrepancy you observed. If it’s of any help, later in the week I’ll get someone to flick the operating switch while I attempt and identify which wire from switch connects to which terminal on which relay in boot. If you can eliminate the switch as culprit it will save pulling the dash out unnecessarily, although I’d be interested to know myself how it’s held in. (Intending to dump the auto box currently fitted, I imported a 6-speed Tremac, but have been partially put off fitting it, by the prospect of removing the dash to get at gear select mechanism.)
Over enthusiastic heater – luck you! Whether hot air or air con cold - never get much of either out of mine.
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The replacement Mk 3 Granada wiper switch arrived today, but, the intermittent setting on the wipers still doesn't work. Oh well, back to the drawing board......
Have also just obtained a Peugeot 306 Haynes manual from ebay in the hope that there might be some useful information regarding the hood workings. Hope springs eternal as someone once said......
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Turns out it wasn't the switch but rather the relay that controls the intermittent operation of the wipers. Got one from a scrapyard for £15 and it's done the trick! I'm now going to try substituting the relay in the driver's door to see if that has any effect on the hood operation....that is, if I can find another relay that's the same....
By the way, did anyone manage to turn up with a copy of the elusive wiring CD?
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Pat – I have the wiring diagram here waiting to send, but I’ve not received the email from you with your postal address, even though I sent you an email via the forum with my new address. If you still want the diagram please send your postal address to: maxwellbryn@hotmail.co.uk
Max
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Hi Max,
I sent the details a while ago and re-sent them about two weeks ago. Did you receive the email? I'll give you a call this evening to check on progress!
Regards,
Patrick.
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Pat – I have the wiring diagram here waiting to send, but I’ve not received the email from you with your postal address, even though I sent you an email via the forum with my new address. If you still want the diagram please send your postal address to: maxwellbryn@hotmail.co.uk
Max
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Not received anything Pat. Assummed you no longer wanted diagram plus other info.
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Hi Patrick. Did you sort your non-functioning hood? (With or without assistance of the pretty useless wiring diagram I supplied.) [V]
Been have proplems with my own hood - it would part-lift then collapse back down. Topping up oil level (Peugeot Pt No 9734.NO) solved that, but operation remains unreliable - works perfectly sometimes, but on others either refuses to function or gets tied up in knots part way through cycle. [:(!]
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Hi Max,
No, haven't sorted the hood out yet but the wiring diagram was quite useful in spite of it lacking any sort of colour coding! I've been sorting out bonnet locks and loose quarter-lights in the meantime, plus the serpentine belt. That WAS an interesting one! I didn't really make a note of its path when I took the old one off so had a very interesting hour or so trying to work out its correct path. Sometimes the belt appeared too long, then too short, but, get the right route and it fits like a glove. I lost a wheel centre some time ago and have turned up with a firm that will make me a set of new ones in CNC machined aluminium. The plastic centres tend to crack around the fixing set screw and no amount of super glueing seems to solve the problem. Thanks for the Peugeot fluid reference - that will help a great deal. I'm still convinced that there's a relay or two involved in the poor hood operation - where the heck they are though is anybody's guess! Anyway, good to hear from you again! If I solve the problem, you'll be the first to know!
Kind regards, Patrick.
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Patrick. With the ignition on do any of the LED's on the ecu light up? On mine, with ignition on (but before operating dash switch) two reds and three greens illuminate.
Oil's not cheap - £15.28 for 125 ml bottle.[:(]
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Hi Max,
I didn't know that the ECU had any LEDs!! I take it that you mean the unit that's located in the boot next to the valve/solenoid unit? If that is what you mean, I'll have a look when it stops raining.
You're not kidding when you say the oil is expensive! And I bet it'll turn out to be something cheap like trolley jack fluid.....
quote:
Originally posted by Max Allan
Patrick. With the ignition on do any of the LED's on the ecu light up? On mine, with ignition on (but before operating dash switch) two reds and three greens illuminate.
Oil's not cheap - £15.28 for 125 ml bottle.[:(]
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More than likely it’s trolley jack oil (which I have) but I wasn’t about to chance it!
Went through the same head scratching exercise myself refitting serpentine belt following head(s) change. Several months had passed and hadn’t a clue how it went.
Yep – it’s the alloy box with two bundles of wires attached. Point of interest – of the two fuses in the boot the 30 amp fuse protects pump circuit, but the 5 amp fuse has NO influence on hood operation. My hood is working again (touching the woodiest wood I can find [:D]), so out of curiosity I removed the 5 amp fuse and tried raising the hood. Low and behold it worked as per normal !! So your guess is as good as mine what it’s protecting.
If you’ve got no LED lights then the problem has be a loss of 12v supply (+ 30 on wiring diagram), the supply to which ultimately originates at ignition switch. Stupidly, the diagram doesn’t appear to show the dash switch. Unless I’m missing something it can’t be +15 as shown on diagram. +15 sends 12v supply to (a) ecu and (b) coil side of pump relay (negative return to complete circuit and energise relay and start pump is via ecu). But ecu requires instruction from dash switch to raise or lower hood, so by my reckoning there must be two wires from switch not shown on diagram.
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Patrick & Max.
We (FAAC (UK) Ltd) use thousands of litres of Hydraulic Fluid a year in our Hydraulic Gate Operators and Barriers, Can you please confirm Specification of the recommended Hydraulic Fluid you are using [?], If the same or compatable we can supply at more realistic price, we have outlets / representation in 72 + Counties World Wide.
Temp range -20 degrees C to + 55 degrees C, viscosity remains consistent/ constant throughout temperature range due to special approved & tested additives.
Cheers
Keith..[;)]
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A very kind offer Keith, but haven’t a clue the oil spec other than it has quote – “ highly viscosity index/anti-wear/thermal stability/resistance to oxidation/anti-corrosive/anti-foaming/neutrality to elastomers” - and is also used by Citroen! Theoretically oil in any quantity shouldn’t be necessary unless changing a ram or something – then life would start to get expensive! However, assuming similar viscosity ( and maybe flushing out original oil as precaution) would using a slightly different oil matter much? (It’s not like the old days of vegetable oils when mixing veg with mineral was recipe for disaster.)
Kindest regards
Max