AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Classicus on September 09, 2011, 22:34:34
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Whilst I know most of it will inevitably be way over my head, in plod motoring terms Andy how remote is your racing 428 to a an ordinary 428 because it looks as someone remarked at the AC meeting recently pretty fearsome ? Anything like Emmanuel's proposing ? [:D] [:D]
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Hi Paul,If it's fearsome to look at, then imagine what it's like to drive! About 10 years ago we decided to build a race car to win the AMOC Intermarque Challenge series of races here in the UK. I had previously raced my brother's Orange Cobra for many years in the series with great success, but the front runners were getting faster and I needed more horses to keep up. At the time we employed a guy called Simon Ascoli who had built the Lister Storm race cars, and he had some wild ideas for the 428 Frua. The chassis, roof and front and rear bulkheads needed to remain, but all other panels were replaced in Carbon Fibre. The suspension was changed to inboard horizontal springs and dampers operating through rockers, a la Lister Storm, and the engine changed to a dry sump 351 Ford, bored and stroked to 428 cu ins (7 litres). This block was smaller and lighter than the old FE, and could sit further back to give perfect 50:50 weight distribution. The aero pack came from an Audi TT DTM car with front splitter, flat floor, and rear diffuser, finished with a Lister Storm inspired rear wing. The car weighed exactly one tonne and we estimated the additional downforce at 100 mph would be close to another tonne. Power was about 650 bhp at 7000 rpm and we had AP Carbon discs and pads to bring it to a hault. Wheels were Dymags from a GT3 Porsche and uprights from a Harrier GT car. Unfortunately the year after it was finished the AMOC changed the rules to exclude the front running cars which was a real blow. I have raced it a few times in subsequent Special GT races and the ACOC Goodwood Sprint in the pouring rain!!!! I have not measured the 0-60, but it is the quickest thing I have ever driven (and that's saying something). Being slicks and wings, the faster you go, the more grip you have, which takes a leap of faith. If money was no object I would spend a few months developing its potential, but there are other bills which take priority. It starts on the button, and if someone twisted my arm, it could find a new home.
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I've seen some tiny pictures of your race car, Andy, including the largest (though still fairly tiny) in this forum.
It would interest me to see better photos, if you don't mind publishing them. I'll search the website for information about your car - the carbon fibre panels are news to me. There has been much discussion about repairing body parts. If you were able to reproduce panels in carbon fibre, that's extremely interesting!
Performance info would be also welcome. If you were able to get the Frua's weight down to 2000 lbs, your car must be a rocket! I've wondered if there might be a handling benefit in the longer wheelbase of a Frua vs Cobra. Also, what aerodynamic improvement there might be in top speed of a (stock or modified)) Frua vs Cobra.
I had no idea you actually did all this to a 428. I might be the only one who knows nothing about it, though I hope not.
(oops - I discovered 1 tonne equals 1000 kilograms. So it's actually 2,240 pounds, not the same as a ton - 2,000 pounds)
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Two of the few things which are bigger on this side of the pond, tonnes and gallons! In any case 650bhp per tonne is exciting. If I can work out how to post photos on the forum, I have some action pics of my 428 in action which I will try to upload. I also scanned an article from the April 2003 edition of Cars and Cars Conversions Magazine which I could post. Some may ask why anyone would modify such a rare and beautiful car? At the time, prices of concours standard 428 Fruas had sat at 20 to 27,000 pounds for a decade or more, with no indication that was likely to change. This car had serious rust problems and I knew from restoration work we did on customers' cars, a proper job would cost 50k+ to complete. Being objective, it wasn't worth the pain. The arrival of Simon Ascoli opened the possibility of turning a liability into an asset. With the benefit of 20:20 hindsight it was not the best decision ever, but who knows where it will eventually lead? I still have the old steel panels and could restore the car to original spec at some time in the future. In the meantime I'll read up and see if I can upload some photos. Andy.
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Very interesting thank you Andy, looking forward to the pics !! [:)]
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The other known 428 racer is that of Tony Valenti. Perhaps not as radically developed as Andys. Classic Cars magazine listed the following info;
Lightweight panels, air dam, splitter, rear wing and rear plexi glass panels.
Blueprinted Knight Racing 428 engine with TRW pistons, Corello rods, Edelbrock 427 heads, racing cam, Holley 750 carb, blueprinted C^ auto box.
Stiffened suspension, 17in Hallibrand pegs drives.
0-100 9.5
0-60 4.4
Regularly raced and used as an everyday road car!
See Maddox's excellent listing of all articles elsewhere on the forum for more info.
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Sounds like a pretty quick car, read the review. The magazine made a mistake describing the engine mods. The heads are Edelbrock but not 427MR size with 76cc combustion chambers as those would not work on a narrow bore 428 engine. Edelbrock makes a 428 version with 72cc chambers and Cobra Jet ports which will work with both 428 and 390 engines. Carillo rods are absolutely bullet proof but a bit heavy which is the reason why i selected Olivers, just a matter of personal preference.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Hey, Andy... is this somewhere you could take your beastie out to play?
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/v8s.jpg)
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Anyone know if it's possible to watch this sort of racing on a computer as I can't get near the tv these days ?
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It ain`t on the TV either, mate!
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Andy, i wonder if your car could be raced in the US. There may be a category it could fit into, in vintage racing of course. IMSA maybe !
Emmanuel
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There may be a racing category which would accept the 428. It is certainly worth a look. Has anyone got a copy of the instructions on how to post photos on the Forum, as I have drawn a blank so far, and have some photos which I'm sure you will like. Andy
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You need to open a PhotoBucket account and the paste a link. I will post more detailed instructions tonight when I have more time.
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by shepHas anyone got a copy of the instructions on how to post photos on the Forum, Andy
Here you are, Sir, POSTING PHOTOS THREAD (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=145"), 5th post down. [8D]
Alternatively, email them to me and I will sort it out for you!!! [:D]
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Andy - I recall watching your 428 compete in a round of the AMOC championship at Brands. You made a demon start and forgot to turn right at Druids!! Must check me files for incriminating photographic evidence....
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Trev.
Spot On !! Was a great dice with the Turquois Porsche until Andy's exit at Druids. So competitive, Had every one standing on their seats.
Love to see a few photos. better still anyone capture those laps on video..[?].
Would be nice to see and hear the Black Stealth out on track again.
Any chance re: ACOC GoodWood Sprint in November..[?]
Keith..[:p].
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Ah yes Druids! I had two excursions at Druids. The one Trevor refers to was when the throttle stuck which caused a missed heart beat and some body work mods! The second one was when the carbon brakes glazed when I used the wrong method of warming them up on the green flag lap. On the first lap I dived up to Druids as usual, but when I hit the brake pedal, it was like a lump of solid wood. Result, more body work! I then learned that carbon discs require short sharp stabs on the pedal and not the smooth on and off style which is right for iron discs. Live and learn. Any photos of the 428 would be of great interest. Having looked at the GPG 4C accident at Goodwood, I have another tale to tell, but will post with that thread. Andy.
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FOUND THIS OLD POST RE; ANDY'S CARBON CAR.
Just wanted to keep this thread alive until photos get posted, and more information is forthcoming.
Posted September, 2006 by Shep:
What's going on out there? The Chinese Whisper rumour factory finds another gear! I seem to recall that the bucks for my 428 Frua carbon were made by Simon Ascoli when he was working for us at Uniclip Automotive. Steve Gray may have fettled the end result before the bucks went to have the body moulds cast to make the finished carbon body.
The car was never banned from the ACOC Goodwood sprint, although it claimed Fastest Time of the Day on its first and only sprint appearance, on a streaming wet track! The Aston Martin Owners Club did however ban it from their Intermarque Championship along with Richard Chamberlain's rapid Porsche 935, Malcolm Hamilton's monster 8 litre E Type and the Silk Cut Jaguar driven by maestro Win Percy. We were all going far too fast and as skill could not beat us, legislation did! How sour can grapes taste?
My Black 428 Frua is currently sitting in my garage. She weighs 1000kg with 650bhp from 428 extremely light cubic inches, and generates 1000kgs of downforce at 100mph. With the short circuit diff she runs out of revs at 170mph. I'd guess the way she is still pulling, a longer diff could allow 200mph if we knocked off some wing angle.
While posting, I'm always happy to give AC drivers and racers the benefit of my many years race experience and love giving a few pointers on track days etc. Cars are built to be enjoyed and the more fun we can have, the better the world becomes!
Andy Shepherd
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Thanks J for remembering my previous post on the Black Car. I am going to try really hard to upload some photos, and thanks for your support! Andy.
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Andy Hi,
You need to open a free account with let say "Photobucket.com" You will then upload your photos in Photobucket, they have instructions. All you have to do after that is to click once on the photo, a screen will appear and then you move your pointer to the box called IMG code at the bottom of the window. To then copy the link, go back to your edit window on this forum and right click on paste, thats it. Press enter to go to the next line and so on! Piece of cake! Sorry for the delay, I forgot about it.
Emmanuel[:)]
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let's see if this works!(http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/shepherd289/untitled-1.jpg)
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Thanks Emmanueld! I need to master the text, but the photo seems to have come through OK. You can get an idea of how damp the track was at Goodwood when I took it to the ACOC Sprint! We still made Fastest Time of the Day. I will try some more photos later. Andy.
(http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/shepherd289/100_0094.jpg)
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!!!!! Yikes !!!!!
BAD BOY !!!!
(is there nowhere to run this fella?)
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Watch out, I am still unsure quite how this is all working, but I have found a photo of my first effort to enable "Boris" to survive on a race track. This was back in October 1989 and the plan was to race at the Bentley Drivers Club meeting at Silverstone. The car still had a stock 3 speed auto box, and wire wheels shod with Dunlop M section Racing tyres. You can see the front air dam which made a huge difference to the cooling. Without it, the engine would overheat after 2 laps at over 120C. With the dam, it would run flat out and stay at 90-95C for the entire race. This gave substance to my theory that the bumper and nose split the airflow over and under the car, with little or nothing passing through the radiator. The dam stopped or reduced the flow under the car, and built up pressure at the radiator intake. As there was no air going under the car, the pressure there was reduced, and bingo the high pressure flowed through the radiator, and out under the car! The downside was the look, much like a Datsun 240Z.
(http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx23/shepherd289/428atBrandsOct89.jpg)
Andy Shepherd testing AC 428 Frua "Boris" at Brands Hatch Oct 1989
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Valuable information RE: air dam.
Emmanuel and (subsquently) myself, added a very 'subtile' spoiler, which did seem to help a little. I suspect it was too 'subtile' to be truly effective. Luckily for me, mine is removeable, so I could try making another, more aggressive version. Mine was painted black, which made it disappear on my red car.
What transmission did you use to replace the C6? Boris must have had a 2.88 differential. Did you change the diff gearing?
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Wonderful picture of Boris Andy thanks....doesn't look as though there's any rust at all ?
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Sadly that was back in 1989, that's 22 years ago!!!! The rust bubbled out on the tops of the wings in front of the windscreen. The lips on the wheel arches had already been replaced with what looked like Jaguar ones. They were rounded and not like the originals, and they were rusting badly. Boris was going down hill fast, and at the time (about 10 years ago) would have cost more to repair than Frua concours values. It was then that we decided to build a racecar which would make Cobras look slow, and the Black Car was born. The engine, gearbox and diff were all custom, and capable of handling 650 horses and 600 lbs/ft of torque, so the originals are all on the shelf. The gearbox is a 5 speed with 1:1 5th. The diff gives about 170mph at 7000 rpm, and it hit the rev limiter fairly easily on many of the longer straights. If I had continued development, I would have put in a longer 5th gear as 4th and 5th were too close anyway. I saw Big Al from Thunder Road today as he wanted some 428 parts, and he said he had been thinking about the Black Car recently. Maybe there is a case for putting the Band back together. We're 106 miles from Silverstone, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing our sunglasses. Hit it!
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"It was then that we decided to build a race car which would make Cobras look slow, and the Black Car was born"
Oh YES!
EXCELLENT! (I just want a GT that wipes the smirk off the faces of owners of other, more 'revered' ("popular") GT's of the period. The 428 should be able to do that easily)
GO, GO, GO!, Andy. Boris needs exercise!
(Emmanuel and I have TREMEC 5 speeds with a .82 fifth gear. I have a 3.32 differential. It's the original Salisbury rear end, with a change of gears)(I have been careful not to make any "Chemical" changes - though I really like the idea of lightweight body panels)
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
I saw Big Al from Thunder Road today as he wanted some 428 parts, and he said he had been thinking about the Black Car recently. Maybe there is a case for putting the Band back together. We're 106 miles from Silverstone, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing our sunglasses. Hit it!
If this doesn't send values crazy nothing will ! [:D]
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Shep, nice pictures, any under the hood and inside the car?
Emmanuel