AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Mk IV, Superblower, CRS and other Continuation Cars Forum => Topic started by: Chafford on June 06, 2011, 21:55:58
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Deleted
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Chafford
Dont take it personally.. But.
AC COBRA MKV / MKV1, MKV11 ... ACs ..[?].. Since When .[?]
The ACOC in conjunction with The AC Factory and the Hurlock Family were granted permission to use the AC logo back in 1949 and have been proud to be associated with and wear the logo ever since.
However Lubinski and his legal team in there infinite wisdom have taken legal ACtion and threatened the ACOC with court proceedings if they
reproduced any item displaying the AC logo.
What bloody Planet are they on ..[?]..[?]
No Cobra after the MK1V was ever made by AC in Surrey and should not be recognised by the ACOC.. .. as it is NOT a genuine AC.
Please go to the back of the class and write 1000 lines.
MK1V s were the last of the genuine Cobras, bearing the real badge with initials AC ... all others are genuine Facsimilies.
Hopefully the ACOC can distance itself from Cobra Kits and Cobra MKVs / MKVIs / MKV11s & MKv111s etc which masquarade as ACs..[:(]
My personal view and shared by many members in Our Club, this Forum and our club magazine, ACtion should not be advertising or promoting non AC Manufactured Cars, !!! Or are we to accept all and sundry Cobra Kit Cars into our Club... [V]..[V]..[V]
Keith
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Chafford
Dont take it personally.. But.
AC COBRA MKV / MKV1, MKV11 ... ACs ..[?].. Since When .[?]
The ACOC in conjunction with The AC Factory and the Hurlock Family were granted permission to use the AC logo back in 1949 and have been proud to be associated with and wear the logo ever since.
However Lubinski and his legal team in there infinite wisdom have taken legal ACtion and threatened the ACOC with court proceedings if they
reproduced any item displaying the AC logo.
What bloody Planet are they on ..[?]..[?]
No Cobra after the MK1V was ever made by AC in Surrey and should not be recognised by the ACOC.. .. as it is NOT a genuine AC.
Please go to the back of the class and write 1000 lines.
MK1V s were the last of the genuine Cobras, bearing the real badge with initials AC ... all others are genuine Facsimilies.
Hopefully the ACOC can distance itself from Cobra Kits and Cobra MKVs / MKVIs / MKV11s & MKv111s etc which masquarade as ACs..[:(]
My personal view and shared by many members in Our Club, this Forum and our club magazine, ACtion should not be advertising or promoting non AC product !!! Or are we to accept all and sundry Cobra Kit Cars into our Club... [V]..[V]..[V]
Keith
So in your opinion, cars produced by AC Heritage at Brooklands who are licenced by AC to produce continuation cars and will at some stage build the MKVI, are not genuine ACs, whereas those produced by Autokraft at Brooklands in the 1980s, again licensed by AC at the time, are!
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Pulls up chair, buys a weeks suppply of popcorn......
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Chafford
Interesting observation, I was under the impression that the AC name was still owned by Lubinski..[?] Sorry I didn't realise or appreciate that Lubinski was a Partner..[?] Director of AC Heritage.
I obviously drew the wrong conclusion and thought "AC Heritage" was a Sister Company to/of Steve Greys " Brooklands Motor Company" and therefore made (AC) Continuation Cobras under licence.
However, MKVs and MKV1s to me are not the real Mc Coy but just another Cobra amongst the ranks of Continuations and Kit Cars.
Enough Said !! The ACOC was formed in 1949 to use, abuse and enjoy AC Cars produced by AC Cars of Thames Ditton,Surrey.
That I shall continue to Enjoy.!!
Oh S**t... Trev I've dropped mee Pop Corn in my Coke.
Keith..[:)]
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Nowt worse than soggy popcorn (yuk) but for what it's worth I'm with you on this one Keith - 100%. As are, no doubt, 99.9% of all AC users and abusers! May the products of Thames Ditton live long and prosper.
My opinons of that creation (above) are a matter of record :-)
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Enough Said !! The ACOC was formed in 1949 to use, abuse and enjoy AC Cars produced by AC Cars of Thames Ditton,Surrey.
That I shall continue to Enjoy.!!
Keith..[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
Nowt worse than soggy popcorn (yuk) but for what it's worth I'm with you on this one Keith - 100%. As are, no doubt, 99.9% of all AC users and abusers! May the products of Thames Ditton live long and prosper.
Gents,
Perhaps it's just my over-analytical interpretation of your recent postings regarding the ACOC being 'for Thames Ditton cars only', thus I think a clarification on location-based eligibility of ACOC membership is required.
MKIV's were produced at both Brooklands and Frimley, and MKIV-CRS's at Frimley. With the club already struggling with membership numbers & participation, it would be a pity to further alienate the owners of these cars, as without their membership there would be a very noticeable dip in member numbers and event attendance. From personal experience, attendees at the majority of club events is massively reliant on their participation.
Like it or not, Chafford does make a good point. There is certainly no easy answer, but perhaps it's a date cut-off, not location cut-off, that is required? Remember too that there are 'bonifide' AC continuation cars that were (pick your word: produced/assembled/completed...) in Frant post the Frimley shut-down. Further insight from members of this forum on these cars would also be welcome [:I]
Hence I would propose that the ACOC is not only the preserve of Thames Ditton cars...
PS: my popcorn is dry and ready to go [;)]
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quote:
MKIV's were produced at both Brooklands and Frimley, and MKIV-CRS's at Frimley. ...There is certainly no easy answer, but perhaps it's a date cut-off, not location cut-off, that is required?
Date makes great sense, but only if you can determine if and when AC truly died. Location is unimportant (or is it?). Cars built by CP Autokraft and Ford were true AC’s, and this situation is no different than the Ford Jaguars, VW Bentleys, and BMW Rolls Royces that were recently built or still being built today. The real question is do you need a company factory location to have a marque? An even more pressing question is: Is AC dead?
Where is my popcorn?
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quote:
Originally posted by C9OBY
quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Enough Said !! The ACOC was formed in 1949 to use, abuse and enjoy AC Cars produced by AC Cars of Thames Ditton,Surrey.
That I shall continue to Enjoy.!!
Keith..[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
Nowt worse than soggy popcorn (yuk) but for what it's worth I'm with you on this one Keith - 100%. As are, no doubt, 99.9% of all AC users and abusers! May the products of Thames Ditton live long and prosper.
Gents,
Perhaps it's just my over-analytical interpretation of your recent postings regarding the ACOC being 'for Thames Ditton cars only', thus I think a clarification on location-based eligibility of ACOC membership is required.
MKIV's were produced at both Brooklands and Frimley, and MKIV-CRS's at Frimley. With the club already struggling with membership numbers & participation, it would be a pity to further alienate the owners of these cars, as without their membership there would be a very noticeable dip in member numbers and event attendance. From personal experience, attendees at the majority of club events is massively reliant on their participation.
Like it or not, Chafford does make a good point. There is certainly no easy answer, but perhaps it's a date cut-off, not location cut-off, that is required? Remember too that there are 'bonifide' AC continuation cars that were (pick your word: produced/assembled/completed...) in Frant post the Frimley shut-down. Further insight from members of this forum on these cars would also be welcome [:I]
Hence I would propose that the ACOC is not only the preserve of Thames Ditton cars...
PS: my popcorn is dry and ready to go [;)]
Using a date would exclude any traditionally built cars from Mr Gray's firm.
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Bruce, Chafford and All
The referal to Thames Ditton was regards to the frmation of the ACOC back in 1949.
I accept all ACs from Thames Ditton plus MK1Vs, CRS, Lightwieghts etc were made by AC in SURREY . Be it during Ownership of Hurlock Family, Brian Anglis or Alan lubinski..
I simple cannot see how a Car produced in some other Country that has no components made / produced by AC can be a AC other than being made under licence, thereby buying credability/ cudos by riding on the back of ACs History.
The AC name is so far removed from these latest creations parading around Europe & USA that they simply cannot be ACs....[:(]
Keith
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As a newly joined "plastic pauper" thank God my wheel nuts say AC! Yet another reason not to change to spinners.
Maybe membership should be based on current vehicle prices with fees proportionate to the value of ones vehicle.[;)]
Does this debate on eligibility happen every month or only at the approach to the various summer get togethers?
PS The other RHD MKV is also currently for sale decked out as some form of retro racer at £69,950 on autotrader, the third and last Maltese car is LHD. What about the status of the new German models?
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And so where would those cobbled together in some form from an original AC chassis such as the grey 2.6 build from chassis EL 1558 or the 2nd BEX403 (or 404?) or the Cobras having duplicate chassis numbers or the new 2.6 RS5038?
Sounds like those built in England are OK but not those built in Malta, Germany, Poland, South Africa or the US are not????
John
And Keith got the popcorn all soggy so I didn't get any!
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For me it will always be Derek [:)]
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This always happens when the MkV (or project Kimber{Smart Ace}, or the Iconic and now MkVI! etc.)are mentioned. [B)]
It`s a toughy, because throughout AC`s history, there have always been 'specials', outsourcing, subcontracting, production shifts (Scottish ME, anyone?) but there has always been a link, DNA, whatever you call it, that pretty much broke after the CRS/Superblower/212SC period.
The Texan gentleman was happy to take Polish-built Kirkhams & sell them as his continuations with 'his'* chassis numbers on,
whilst taking pot-shots at anyone else who replicated 'his'# shape... oh yeah, and he makes his own fibreglass replicas too...
SO, does that mean that the MkV/VI should be embraced?
Are the AC Heritage cars, built by some guys who worked for Autokraft with some guys who built original Cobras at Thames Ditton on some of the original tooling to the correct spec & method any less of an AC than a MkIV which (most) of the ACOC are happy to have in the fold?
We`ve not really touched on the Brooklands Ace/Aceca lines which could have been the real 'next generation' of AC`s had circumstances not dictated otherwise, and would probably have negated much of this discussion! The DNA is there too...
Although a lot of us DO agree on much of this, there will always be small areas of grey, maybe BIG areas, but the one thing we should all unite for is the identity of the club being retained for the enjoyment of those that have done so much to promote the very brand that they can no longer depict in their logo!!!
Vive La
(http://www.just-carclubs.co.uk/thumbnails/ac_owners_logo.jpg)
*(but we never did get a definitive answer to the "what does CSX stand for"? question!)
#(but who`s shape was it really? Alan Turner, John Tojeiro, Ferrari, list goes on..& on...!!)
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Sorry chaps, you’ve caught me on the hop with this one. The next (quarterly) discussion of this topic is not scheduled until later in June [;)]
An additional definition of an AC car could be the following:
• If the man with the hammer and the box of spanners received a payslip each week from AC Cars, it would suggest he was making ACs.
• If the company paying the rent on the factory was AC Cars, or owned, or part owned by AC Cars it would suggest they made AC cars.
Maybe the above would be too simple ?
Regarding Keith's suggestion the club should not be advertising or promoting non AC Manufactured Cars, I see your point, but don't agree. Some of the people a blanket ban would affect are also the people making the bits that keep our cars on the road.
Please let me know when we’ve all been round the usual houses with this topic and then I can step back in and talk about Iconic badge engineered historic desk racing.[:D]
John.
PS: Trevor, got any popcorn left ?
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Plenty of popcorn for you, but tis soggy with me tears...check the panel gaps on that automotive treasure and you'll see why. (and that's the good news)
The words 'horses - dead - flogging' come to mind on the Who Made What & Where topic and folks will only ever agree to disagree so let's get back to the racing desk issue: Do you drawers keep dropping...think I need stronger hinges!
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Trevor,
I think you can now get original old stock hinges in carbon fibre which could be the way to go ? I’ve found if you saw a couple of inches off the legs you can get better stability. I’ve also tried sitting on the desk which has greatly increased the down force, though not done much for the aerodynamics.[:D]
We can always microwave the popcorn, I’ll bring the beer. This topic is usually good for a couple of weeks of postings.[;)]
John.
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Cobham Cobbler... OOoopppppss, sorry Cobham Cobra.
John
All for the manufacturers of spare parts.. to keep our beloved ACs on the black stuff.. [;)]........ Once upon a time AC ACtually made and supplied bits off the shelf.
Sad as it is, that aint so any more..[:(]
Hence we need the likes of the Steve Grey's, Gerry Hawkridge, Rod Briggs and Brian Eacott .... to name but four ..[:p]
They are always there when needed. . . . where as AC Cars .......[?].
OH BUM!! the soggy popcorn has come through the bottom of the bag..
Keith
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Keith,
Now that point I can agree with.
Cheers - John.
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quote:
Originally posted by cobham cobra...I’ve found if you saw a couple of inches off the legs you can get better stability...
Is that yours, or the desk?[;)]
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Thank you young Nik, my legs are already short enough[V], and I still have stability problems occasionally[:D]
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And here's another one on sale - 5,800 miles only:
http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/stock.htm
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20006.jpg)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20018.jpg)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20002.jpg)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20011.jpg)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20017.jpg)
(http://www.barryelysportscars.co.uk/images/Cob/Cob%20003.jpg)
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I think we should be inclusive, I go even further, we should have threads on this forum for reputable manufacturers of rolling chassis like Kirkham for example who are a major provider of spares here in the US. I seem to recall them trying to buy the AC marque a few years back., who knows it may still happen. The fact that people try to copy our cars is a plus for AC. It keeps the brand alive. In addition, if the owner of the marque produces a car and places the AC logo on it, then it's an AC. There is nothing anyone can do about it. This reminds me of Norton which was revived in the US only to be bought back by a British investor. They are now making modern Norton Commandos in England again. These are modern motorcycles, which look somewhat similar to the original but are 100% modern based on Greer's design.
Any expensive kit car owner like Kirkham is a potential future AC owner and a potential club member as well.
Emmanuel[:)]
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I think many of us would feel compelled to welcome a MKVI if it were a well built vehicle and a credit to the Marque.
Things have gone wrong because the Marque's integrity has been used in a questionable manner and placed on substandardly manufactured vehicles.
Many are uncomfortable to be associated with the recent financial past and the MKV.
Should a vehicle be built that is a credit to the very proud history of AC I believe we would all stand and applaud.
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
And so where would those cobbled together in some form from an original AC chassis such as the grey 2.6 build from chassis EL 1558 or the 2nd BEX403 (or 404?) or the Cobras having duplicate chassis numbers or the new 2.6 RS5038?[/size=6]
Sounds like those built in England are OK but not those built in Malta, Germany, Poland, South Africa or the US are not????
John
And Keith got the popcorn all soggy so I didn't get any!
Hey, where was I during this whole rant? This is getting personal now! Cobbled together home project? The "new 2.6 RS5038" did come from an AC factory and was built buy AC craftsmen. They just did not finish their job...
And why are we on popcorn? We had a good one going with the Bishop's finger somewhere else!
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
And so where would those cobbled together in some form from an original AC chassis such as the grey 2.6 build from chassis EL 1558 or the 2nd BEX403 (or 404?) or the Cobras having duplicate chassis numbers or the new 2.6 RS5038?[/size=6]
Sounds like those built in England are OK but not those built in Malta, Germany, Poland, South Africa or the US are not????
John
And Keith got the popcorn all soggy so I didn't get any!
Hey, where was I during this whole rant? This is getting personal now! Cobbled together home project? The "new 2.6 RS5038" did come from an AC factory and was built buy AC craftsmen. They just did not finish their job...
And why are we on popcorn? We had a good one going with the Bishop's finger somewhere else!
Gus
It's all a load of old cobblers (or should that be Cobras!) [:)][:)]
I wouldn't be too upset though - RS5038 is history repeating itself; body and chassis built by AC with engine installation and final completion in the US. I'm wondering though whether you ought to refer to it as an 'AC Mk1 260 continuation'[;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
...
I simple cannot see how a Car produced in some other Country that has no components made / produced by AC can be a AC other than being made under licence, thereby buying credability/ cudos by riding on the back of ACs History.
The AC name is so far removed from these latest creations parading around Europe & USA that they simply cannot be ACs....[:(]
Keith
I fully agree with you on this, Keith[:)]
Now what is the definition of "made under licence"? I would understand this as a product made to the same basic technical specification as the original product. Example: today Miroku Firearms of Japan manufactures Winchester '94 rifles under licence of Winchester Corp. Same spec, same design, same or improved built quality due to use of more modern materials.
The Cobra MkVI is a previously existant product of the replica market, modified and rebadged AC. That, to me, is at best trademark licensing.
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIV Lux
quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
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I simple cannot see how a Car produced in some other Country that has no components made / produced by AC can be a AC other than being made under licence, thereby buying credability/ cudos by riding on the back of ACs History.
The AC name is so far removed from these latest creations parading around Europe & USA that they simply cannot be ACs....[:(]
Keith
I fully agree with you on this, Keith[:)]
Now what is the definition of "made under licence"? I would understand this as a product made to the same basic technical specification as the original product. Example: today Miroku Firearms of Japan manufactures Winchester '94 rifles under licence of Winchester Corp. Same spec, same design, same or improved built quality due to use of more modern materials.
The Cobra MkVI is a previously existant product of the replica market, modified and rebadged AC. That, to me, is at best trademark licensing.
As was the Mk IV - an existing product built by Brian Angliss that was subsequently modified and licenced by Derek Hurlock to use the AC title in 1982.
I've seem the arguments about 'bloodlines' etc, but the reality is that models such as the CRS as originally specified had precious little in common with the 60's Shelby Cobra 427.
The best approach is to adopt an inclusive approach and welcome Mk V and Mk VI owners to the Club as owners of genuine ACs. I was pleased therefore to see a category for Cobra MkIV CRS, Mk V and Mk VI for the Concours at the ACOC National Day.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford...I've seem the arguments about 'bloodlines' etc,...The best approach is to adopt an inclusive approach and welcome Mk V and Mk VI owners to the Club as owners of genuine ACs...
I think the real issue with the MkV wasn`t so much to do with bloodline as it was to do with the awful, awful build quality that was below anything even the most budget of Cobra replicators would have cringed at, and effectively brought shame to the once-great name of AC! Having had bucketloads of money thrown at the few extant examples to make them roadworthy & presentable their owners should be welcomed and recognised for their achievements.
Having seen the MkVI, those quality issues are long gone, and regardless of how we feel about the Dax origins, they do have an AC badge on, so their owners should also be made welcome.
(.. But please park them overe there...bit further...bit further... OK. [;)])
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hahaha!! I'll park RS 5038 right next them...overthere...
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quote:
The Cobra MkVI is a previously existant product of the replica market, modified and rebadged AC. That, to me, is at best trademark licensing.
As was the Mk IV - an existing product built by Brian Angliss that was subsequently modified and licenced by Derek Hurlock to use the AC title in 1982.
However, a real difference is that Autokraft ended up buying AC.
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
hahaha!! I'll park RS 5038 right next them...overthere...
I'm sure you'd insist on parking RS 5038 next to the Thames Ditton Cobras right over here! [;)][:)]
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I would like think Mk V owners will be made to feel most welcome into the ACOC. There will of course be members who will be against this as there members today who consider cars built after 1980s are not 'real' ACs. The fact is they are. Surely it does not matter how well or how poor the build quality was - they are ACs and demand the respect that they are of AC heritage.
Consider that one day, perhaps not to far in the distant future, cars will again be made in the UK by a UK AC Car company!
Terry
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" Consider that one day, perhaps not to far in the distant future, cars will again be made in the UK by a UK AC Car company!"
I'm very hopeful and pretty sure your right these cars can and will be produced in the UK in the near future ...
Although my hope would have been someone in the US bought the company and started producing these cars in the US .. but unfortunately ... OBAMA ran out of money to bail out car companies and the new stimulous package doesnt include any money for this venture .. so my plan B is to hope a company in the UK does it ! LOL
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me...Surely it does not matter how well or how poor the build quality was...Terry
Agreed, I was suggesting that was the main reason for criticism, not a basis for exclusion! [:)]
Gus, park where you like!!! [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me
I would like think Mk V owners will be made to feel most welcome into the ACOC. There will of course be members who will be against this as there members today who consider cars built after 1980s are not 'real' ACs. The fact is they are. Surely it does not matter how well or how poor the build quality was - they are ACs and demand the respect that they are of AC heritage.
Consider that one day, perhaps not to far in the distant future, cars will again be made in the UK by a UK AC Car company!
Terry
Agree to all of that! Lets welcome all three of the UK Mk Vs and any of the other cars/ chassis still knocking around in the US![:)]
See Refs 0002 and 0011
http://www.villamoto.com/index.htm
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Hmmm - built to "exact" MkIII (427) specs but with more legroom, better handling, yadda yadda. So - totally different then.
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Oh, C'mon Trevor: it's natural evolution... Whatever... Just have another Bishop's Finger..[;)]
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No one has mentioned it but this car actually sold (grigo silver MKV) by private treaty after it had been entered to the recent Silverstone auction. Nick Whale runs this auction,and one of his subsidiaries Castello cars was selling the car.(Note if you go to Castello website you get directed back to Nick Whale.
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Evolution indeed! A classic example of the process. A bit like to offspring of a marriage between brother and sister....
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hahaha!! that was funny!! Made me laugh out loud.
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
Evolution indeed! A classic example of the process. A bit like to offspring of a marriage between brother and sister....
This one seems to have evolved quite well since it was built in 2007. £70k seems rather on the high side though.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C214813
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On a lighter note (just to keep everybody smiling) [:)]
Just renewed the insurance on my CRS and had to spend 15 minutes convincing the broker the I hadn't built it myself and yes they were still making them in 1999/2000![:p]
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The Barry Ely car was sold at Coys in Dec 2010 for £56,500
I personally dont like this one from a cosmetic view point being to "bling" and busy colour scheme.
I did look at MkV's very seriously for a while as a possible purchase but decided to wait for the right MkIV.
The MKV cars do seem to sit with dealers for a long time,and I could have been the first ACOC member with one.........At least parking would not be a problem,and I might have won the concours.
2006 AC Cobra MkV. Sports
SOLD by Coys Auctioneers
Price £56,500
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinghorse...I could have been the first ACOC member with [a MkV]...I might have won the concours.
OR, you could have come third, like Charlie Chaplin did in a Charlie Chaplin lookalike contest!!!! [:o)]
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... I read the word "Evolution" .... ok let me have a trial on that...
- 289 / Mk III Cobra (coil sprung)
- Mk IV Cobra: built essentially on the same basis as the coil sprung 289 (chassis dimensions, structure, suspension layout, body, base engine & gearbox, differential, somewhat modernized, aluminium body, dash upgrade ...)
- Superblower: as per Mk IV / engine upgrade, different dash
- CRS: as per Mk IV chassis layout, slightly modified, dash upgrade, carbon fibre bodied
- 212: as per CRS, Lotus engined, slighly modified body (indicator and rear lights basis)
- Mk V: as per CRS, latest body design as per 212, different body materials
Up to here, I reckon the evolution along the initial 289 coil sprung chassis design.
- Mk VI: all in all totally different car (dimensions, chassis structure, layout, suspension, body shape & materials, dash, engine, gearbox, differential) having existed in the replica market before it has been badged AC.
If in parallel, an expert on the matter would now state where the cars were built, who owned the premises, the engineering, the tools, who paid the men that manufactured these cars => up to and including the Mk V, beering in mind the Angliss story starting off from the other end, one can answer those questions by "AC".
As of the Mk VI, so far only the badge is "AC".
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIV Lux
... I read the word "Evolution" .... ok let me have a trial on that...
- 289 / Mk III Cobra (coil sprung)
- Mk IV Cobra: built essentially on the same basis as the coil sprung 289 (chassis dimensions, structure, suspension layout, body, base engine & gearbox, differential, somewhat modernized, aluminium body, dash upgrade ...)
- Superblower: as per Mk IV / engine upgrade, different dash
- CRS: as per Mk IV chassis layout, slightly modified, dash upgrade, carbon fibre bodied
- 212: as per CRS, Lotus engined, slighly modified body (indicator and rear lights basis)
- Mk V: as per CRS, latest body design as per 212, different body materials
Up to here, I reckon the evolution along the initial 289 coil sprung chassis design.
- Mk VI: all in all totally different car (dimensions, chassis structure, layout, suspension, body shape & materials, dash, engine, gearbox, differential) having existed in the replica market before it has been badged AC.
If in parallel, an expert on the matter would now state where the cars were built, who owned the premises, the engineering, the tools, who paid the men that manufactured these cars => up to and including the Mk V, beering in mind the Angliss story starting off from the other end, one can answer those questions by "AC".
As of the Mk VI, so far only the badge is "AC".
The shape and body materials (either GRP with aluminium coating or carbon fibre) of the production Mk VI are specific to that car.
Still a mystery where this car is on sale in the UK though. AC haven't responded to my emails.
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Gentlemen, having the read the latest batch of comments about what constitutes a real AC, or not as the case may be, here is my ten pence worth. Firstly, however, a comment posted stated the CRS has little in common with the early cars, well what the bloody hell do you know? Do you own such a car? Have you worked on one? As the owner of such a vehicle, someone who has worked on early Cobras and has completed total nut and bolt rebuilds on MkIV cars, there IS a direct link, blood line, what ever you wish to call it, between the very first cars and the very last English built cars. Suspension/chassis construction/engine type/configuration/body shape, its all there from early to late and they were all built in the UK.
When the first brand new MkV cars turned up at Gerry Hawkridges workshop to have his team try to turn them into a saleable/safe/presentable car i raised the question of how the Club would view these toads with the Chairman. He told me the club would be keeping its interest to English built cars and thus, unless something has changed, if its not built in England it doesn't count.For the record, as an ex-Aston Martin engineer, i performed one of the Factory standard critiques on two MkV's at Gerrys premises, the cars were attrocious, badly built/finished/presented, the most shameful thing i have ever seen and i looked at a lot of vehicles in my professional capacity.
The blood line as it has been called on this site, died with the MkV. The latest version the MkVI has no common features with any English built variant, different chassis/suspension/Chevrolet engine and until i and a couple of other people, who know, critised its very mis-formed oddly shaped front end it didn't even look like an early Cobra. The latest body shape has been greatly enhanced/improved by help from Steve Gray i believe.
The worst part of this discussion is the owners of the AC name appear to have little care/thought to the owners club, it members and to the cars long continuously developed history. Its line of DNA, as it were, from 39 PH through to the 212 is there, because although these cars are poles apart in the way they were produced they have a common thread running thorough their construction. This link gives the owner of a modern car a direct link to the cars famous forebears, something the non-UK built cars do not have, nor will they ever.
A final comment, the picture posted of the MkV on this thread, is someone having a joke at our expense? if the bonnet fit of that car gets any worse, you could change the engines plugs with the bonnet shut!!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
Gentlemen, having the read the latest batch of comments about what constitutes a real AC, or not as the case may be, here is my ten pence worth. Firstly, however, a comment posted stated the CRS has little in common with the early cars, well what the bloody hell do you know? Do you own such a car? Have you worked on one? As the owner of such a vehicle, someone who has worked on early Cobras and has completed total nut and bolt rebuilds on MkIV cars, there IS a direct link, blood line, what ever you wish to call it, between the very first cars and the very last English built cars. Suspension/chassis construction/engine type/configuration/body shape, its all there from early to late and they were all built in the UK.
When the first brand new MkV cars turned up at Gerry Hawkridges workshop to have his team try to turn them into a saleable/safe/presentable car i raised the question of how the Club would view these toads with the Chairman. He told me the club would be keeping its interest to English built cars and thus, unless something has changed, if its not built in England it doesn't count.For the record, as an ex-Aston Martin engineer, i performed one of the Factory standard critiques on two MkV's at Gerrys premises, the cars were attrocious, badly built/finished/presented, the most shameful thing i have ever seen and i looked at a lot of vehicles in my professional capacity.
The blood line as it has been called on this site, died with the MkV. The latest version the MkVI has no common features with any English built variant, different chassis/suspension/Chevrolet engine and until i and a couple of other people, who know, critised its very mis-formed oddly shaped front end it didn't even look like an early Cobra. The latest body shape has been greatly enhanced/improved by help from Steve Gray i believe.
The worst part of this discussion is the owners of the AC name appear to have little care/thought to the owners club, it members and to the cars long continuously developed history. Its line of DNA, as it were, from 39 PH through to the 212 is there, because although these cars are poles apart in the way they were produced they have a common thread running thorough their construction. This link gives the owner of a modern car a direct link to the cars famous forebears, something the non-UK built cars do not have, nor will they ever.
A final comment, the picture posted of the MkV on this thread, is someone having a joke at our expense? if the bonnet fit of that car gets any worse, you could change the engines plugs with the bonnet shut!!!!
This year's ACOC National Event Concours had sections for aluminium bodied 'Cobra Mk IV, Superblower' and composite bodied 'Cobra CRS MkIV Mk V & Mk VI'. Which means that the club, very sensibly, will accept and welcome the owners of Mk Vs and Mk VIs.
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When there is the focus on the english cars, why is there no chapter in the register for the factory produced continuation cars COB5001,COB5002,...
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So, the National event had a section for the non UK built cars did it, how interesting. It appears there has been a senior change of view on the matter. Whether that is good or bad for this Club is the decision of the Council members. However, it doesn't change the true facts, the MkV has the most dreadful build quality and the MkVI has no direct link to any Cobra variant build before.
I am one of those Club members who has direct working experience of both the early 60's build cars, the high quality MkIV build vehicles and the poorer quality later cars, although this said i understand the MkVI is getting much better, build wise. Thus, when i write upon this forum i do so from direct experience and as such find some comments from other contributors to be sadly lacking in both fact and objective view point.
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
So, the National event had a section for the non UK built cars did it, how interesting. It appears there has been a senior change of view on the matter. Whether that is good or bad for this Club is the decision of the Council members. However, it doesn't change the true facts, the MkV has the most dreadful build quality and the MkVI has no direct link to any Cobra variant build before.
I am one of those Club members who has direct working experience of both the early 60's build cars, the high quality MkIV build vehicles and the poorer quality later cars, although this said i understand the MkVI is getting much better, build wise. Thus, when i write upon this forum i do so from direct experience and as such find some comments from other contributors to be sadly lacking in both fact and objective view point.
No one would doubt your expertise, but facts are there to be interpreted and different conclusions will be made by different people. DNA from 39PH to 212 S/C - you're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that 39PH has a different chassis/ suspension, a different engine, a different dashboard, a different method of body construction etc from the 212 S/C which dilutes the 'DNA' argument. It was built in a different factory in a different time period and, arguably, by a different company from the one that built 39PH. If you want to argue bloodline, my view is that the direct bloodline of the 212 S/C goes back to 1982 and no further.
However, I regard both cars as real AC Cobras - none of the 'yours isn't a TD Cobra' nonsense for me.
Of course given that I don't have your direct experience, these comments may be completely lacking in both fact and objectivity, and, if they are, I would like to apologise unreservedly.
quote:
Cobra CRS Owner 'My original Cobra CRS has a genuine bloodline going back to the first AC Ace. Please remove that Mk V 'toad' built by winos from the adjacent car parking space immediately.
Cobra Mk VI Owner Please do not insult my original Mk VI. It was built by German craftsmen and has a dashboard signed by Carroll Shelby himself. [;)]
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In response to your post, you are quite correct our view points come from different positions and experiences and will, i suspect never meet. However, i will make you a direct offer, come to my workshop and inspect in detail a late build Lightweight MkIV Cobra and i will show you how its build directly relates back to the 427 cars of the 60's, well beyond 1982 when Autokraft started. From there we can look at my CRS and i can show how the blood line is still there in that car, despite the change of body material. I can prove my view point and am prepared to stand behind all i say.
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I don't doubt your sincerity for a moment but my concern is that if the focus is placed too firmly on 'bloodline' and 'DNA' standards there will always be some poor owner of a car that doesn't meet those who will be on the receiving end of an unpleasant comment - e.g. the MkIV owners at the 'Haynes' event covered elsewhere on this site. Much better surely to welcome those individuals regardless of the model in question.
Distance will prevent a visit anytime soon, but thank you for your kind offer. Is the late MK IV Lightweight the red car on your website that you're currently rebuilding?
http://www.dragonwheelsrestorations.co.uk/concours.htm
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Inclusion is great, but the sad fact is that there will always be a subset of the club that will perceive their cars as more AC or more Cobra than the others. I’m not sure about the Mk V, but Alan is correct in drawing the line at the German, plastic, cobra-vette that is labeled as an AC Mk VI. Most would agree that there is nothing AC or cobra about it. Really, anyone interested in buying into the legend would never seriously consider this car. That said, it has an AC badge, so welcome it to the club. Just don’t expect it to be treated equally, because no one believes all Cobras were created equal… now do they?
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"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....
Now is this a classic example of foreshadowing, or what?
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quote:
Originally posted by ANF289
Inclusion is great, but the sad fact is that there will always be a subset of the club that will perceive their cars as more AC or more Cobra than the others. I’m not sure about the Mk V, but Alan is correct in drawing the line at the German, plastic, cobra-vette that is labeled as an AC Mk VI. Most would agree that there is nothing AC or cobra about it. Really, anyone interested in buying into the legend would never seriously consider this car. That said, it has an AC badge, so welcome it to the club. Just don’t expect it to be treated equally, because no one believes all Cobras were created equal… now do they?
Lets examine that statement: 'German' - synonymous with quality and reliability 'Plastic' - Aluminium coated GRP or Carbon Fibre, the latter like a CRS - LS3/LS7/LS9 Corvette engines, the best in the business with at least 435hp and 20+ mpg. Sounds pretty appealing to me! The only problem is the price which, with options and VAT will run to £120,000! You can buy a very similar car from Gardner Douglas (with a body shape taken from a MkIV and the same Corvette engine) for half the price - or of course buy an original AC Mk IV! [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
"All Cobras Are Equal, Except Some, That Are More Equal Than Others"
Now there's a title for a book!! If only we can find some poor schmuck to write it....
I know someone...
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quote:
Lets examine that statement: 'German' - synonymous with quality and reliability 'Plastic' - Aluminium coated GRP or Carbon Fibre, the latter like a CRS - LS3/LS7/LS9 Corvette engines, the best in the business with at least 435hp and 20+ mpg. Sounds pretty appealing to me!
Appealing? Obviously to some. But does either the appeal or the car have anything to do w/ AC design or engineering? Definitely not, unless you consider drilling holes for an AC roundel in the carbon fiber or alumitex panel an AC design and engineering effort. [;)]
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Here's the little beauty at Geneva earlier this year:
(http://www.motorvision.de/images/89.6x140+90x51+0+4.2/33066/ps-ac-threewheeler.jpg)
(http://www.motorvision.de/images/588.8x920+586x330+0+36.8/33067/ps-ac-threewheeler.jpg)
At least the shape looks better than it did when the car was intoduced.
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looks a bit different than the one they advert on their homepage (October 2011); differences appear in body shape, number of wipers, roll bar, wheels, colouring; specs as advertised on their homepage seem inline with the Geneva car (centre lock wheels, internal boot hinges), specs refer to "push-rod front suspension" .....
however pics on the AC homepage show the "first" car;
http://www.ac-automotive.com/
http://www.ac-automotive.com/en/specifications.html
Geneva car (or is it rather a rolling chassis/body?) pictured here is very close to the non-rolling chassis they showed at Le Mans Classic in July 2010, with white stripes added (of which I have a few photos - but need to restudy the way to post pics here). However no push-rod front suspension layout on the "Le Mans Classic" non-rolling chassis.
It still is a bit of mistery ??
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AC were exhibiting the Mk VI at the recent Lyon Motorshow - 'Come and discover the real AC' [:)][;)]
http://www.ac-automotive.com/en/component/content/article/1-actualites/18-salon-automobile-international-de-lyon.html
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Bruce, Chafford and All
The referal to Thames Ditton was regards to the frmation of the ACOC back in 1949.
I accept all ACs from Thames Ditton plus MK1Vs, CRS, Lightwieghts etc were made by AC in SURREY . Be it during Ownership of Hurlock Family, Brian Anglis or Alan lubinski..
I simple cannot see how a Car produced in some other Country that has no components made / produced by AC can be a AC other than being made under licence, thereby buying credability/ cudos by riding on the back of ACs History.
The AC name is so far removed from these latest creations parading around Europe & USA that they simply cannot be ACs....[:(]
Keith
About 35 AC 3000MEs were manufactured in Scotland in the 1980s, under a licensing agreement. This agreement covered the design of the car and use of the AC Trademark, the ownership of both having been retained by AC Cars Ltd and the Hurlock family in England.
May I ask what you suggest the Club's line should be towards those cars and their owners?
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOCArch
quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Bruce, Chafford and All
The referal to Thames Ditton was regards to the frmation of the ACOC back in 1949.
I accept all ACs from Thames Ditton plus MK1Vs, CRS, Lightwieghts etc were made by AC in SURREY . Be it during Ownership of Hurlock Family, Brian Anglis or Alan lubinski..
I simple cannot see how a Car produced in some other Country that has no components made / produced by AC can be a AC other than being made under licence, thereby buying credability/ cudos by riding on the back of ACs History.
The AC name is so far removed from these latest creations parading around Europe & USA that they simply cannot be ACs....[:(]
Keith
About 35 AC 3000MEs were manufactured in Scotland in the 1980s, under a licensing agreement. This agreement covered the design of the car and use of the AC Trademark, the ownership of both having been retained by AC Cars Ltd and the Hurlock family in England.
May I ask what you suggest the Club's line should be towards those cars and their owners?
Of course they should be invited to AC meetings but please park on the other side of the street (together with the MK IV's) [:o)]
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Given the price of the Mk VI and the controversy over its design, I'm surprised that no dealer has been appointed in the UK to sell Shelby's current Cobras:
http://www.shelbyautos.com/vehicles.asp
(http://www.shelby-cars.com/images/cobra.jpg)
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Gerry Hawkridge already sells Kirkhams in the UK...[;)][:D]
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Ah yes, but although Kirkham build the body and chassis, it's an entirely original Shelby crafted by Mr S. himself! [;)][;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
AC were exhibiting the Mk VI at the recent Lyon Motorshow - 'Come and discover the real AC' [:)][;)]
http://www.ac-automotive.com/en/component/content/article/1-actualites/18-salon-automobile-international-de-lyon.html
why is it that they use the old advertising material on their website ?
see my previous post