AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: ANF289 on May 19, 2011, 19:21:11
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Yes, I’m sure many of you may find it ironic that a guy who drives an archaic AC MkIV is writing to the ACOC to see if there was a way to bring its membership fee collection mechanism into the 21st century. I must admit, I am an overseas member in bad standing. I’ve had a dues invoice buried on my desk for over a year now simply because I am too lazy to write a check, prepare an envelope, and mail the damn thing. Thus, this note is an attempt to clear my conscience by initiating an electronic bill pay for our dues. Can it not be as simple as sending a Paypal payment to the club’s e-mail address? If not, how about an ACOC eBay account? Any other ideas that would allow me (and I’m sure, others) to pay my dues on time and in an electronically efficient manner?
Thanks, I feel better already…
Art
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One reason why the Club has not moved towards to electronic payment is the transaction cost. Would you be prepared to pay a surcharge to pay your subscription in this way?
Terry
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...It might be cheaper than buying a stamp, an envelope & driving to the post office!!! [:)]
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If I send a 60 GPB Paypal payment via Friends and Family to my “good friend” Tony Morpeth and have those funds come from either a PayPal Balance or a Bank Account the fee is only 50 cents US. This is indeed less than buying a stamp, an envelope & driving to the post office.
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quote:
Originally posted by ANF289
If I send a 60 GPB Paypal payment via Friends and Family to my “good friend” Tony Morpeth and have those funds come from either a PayPal Balance or a Bank Account the fee is only 50 cents US. This is indeed less than buying a stamp, an envelope & driving to the post office.
The fees for accepting & withdrawing funds may be additional though, they certainly are when using eBay/Paypal.[:(]
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Pay-pal fees to a UK Business seller (ACOC is run as a Ltd company) are around 3.7%
Based on a UK membership @ £40.00 the transaction cost to the ACOC would be approx £1.48 so not a huge hit.
For international membership this would be £1.85 or thereabouts.
Personally I think this would make sense but somebody (a club volunteer) has to administer these things.
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me
One reason why the Club has not moved towards to electronic payment is the transaction cost. Would you be prepared to pay a surcharge to pay your subscription in this way?
Terry
Would offering the option be a possibility ?
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As another state side member I'd say Yae to 21st century payment. I've long wondered about the concern with money over some items such as a nice glossy print color magazine and now this. We own cars that are costly to buy and to own and we worry about a few bucks or pounds to make a payment? I, for one, and I've said this before, am in favor of raising membership fees in lieu of improving the magazine and other items. Heck, maybe we'd even have the opportunity to hire some attorneys for certain negotiations that have taken place recently. Our state's Porsche club chapter has a rag that put's Action to shame.
On a bigger note, moving into the 21st century on the web, in the magazine and other aspects in return for a higher membership fee is important to maintain and gain membership numbers as well as assist in maintaining interest in the cars. Worst thing would be for a younger crowd to not have interest in these machines and values dropping like a brick in the future. People are willing to pay for a good product, even if they don't own an original or none at all and are just fans of the brand and it's history. Look at Saac for example. Make the membership fee such that we can hire a staff, print a full size magazine, contract with knowledgeable writers, journalists, photographers and get it distributed for sale in the specialty bookstores.
This would also attract more advertisers to offset some of the production costs. Many of us already get multiple classic car rags such as Octane, Motorsport and Classic and sportscar. Getting them here in Michigan is costly, but a lot of us do it. I doubt there would be much opposition to putting out higher quality for a bigger fee. There is so much to write about history, individual restorations, photo shoots of meets, tours and ralleys etc and current news on brand related stuff, that a magazine could be filled easily with AC, Shelby, Kirkham, superformance, SAAC, Ironic Roadsters info to name a few. Just my two cents...
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
Just my two cents...
And that's no small change! All great ideas Gus, but baby-steps seem appropriate at this stage.
To answer Terry's question directly, yes I would pay a few extra bucks to take advantage of this option. However, it would make sense for the club to foot the bill. Far better to net 58 GBP than to lose 60.
Art
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[/quote]
The fees for accepting & withdrawing funds may be additional though, they certainly are when using eBay/Paypal.[:(]
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Don`t forget who owns Paypal !! Why do you think they insist on Paypal when you are selling items on there site ?
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Good points, all. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by aaron...Don`t forget who owns Paypal !!...
Whilst trying to get hold of a Patch (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1852") I contacted a U.S-based seller about a $6 patch, with free U.S shipping.
Cost to the UK, as eBay/Paypal demand trackable international shipping, $6 + $32 postage!!! Ridiculous!
[:(!]
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Hi Gus,
As well as the AC Owners Club, I also belong to the Aston Martin Owners Club and the Porsche Club GB. I would say that the ACtion Magazine beats the AMOC offering hands down, but then they produce a glossy quarterly which is OK if you shop at Armani and Gucci, but not my style. The Porsche boys do a great job, but then they have thousands of members to spread the costs. In the ACOC we all give our time for free, and when organising a major event like John Spencer is doing at the moment, that runs into hundreds of hours. Imagine the cost of employing just 2 people to run the club and take the load off the committee! 2 x 25000 pounds per year plus 5k expenses, and add in 20k for magazine and postage costs, divided between 750 members = about 120 pounds per member, ooooops! Our problem is the low number of cars, and therefore limited membership. The value of the cars doesn't help either, as the young enthusiasts can't get a foot on the AC ladder. My sons own a '72 Mini and a '65 Ford 105E as they cant afford an AC....yet. Maybe we wait for The Revolution.
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Well Said
Robin
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quote:
Originally posted by shep...Imagine the cost of employing...2 people to run the club...2 x 25000 pounds per year plus 5k expenses...
Blimey... I`d do it alone for £25k & expenses...can you give me details of the pension plan, company car & holidays? [:D]
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I don't get out of bed for less than £26K.....just my luck!!
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Well then,there we have it: 26K for a proper author that can't seem to keep his membership...[:)]
I just want to make understood that my rant under no circumstance is a slam on current management, producers of the magazine or volunteers. And I do understand it is quite an undertaking...But at the same time I believe that sprucing matters up a bit, starting with a 21st century membership dues payment will help maintain larger membership numbers...
And, I don't believe every member has to be a car owner (and they are not) so limited production numbers obviously pose a challenge, they should not automatically lead to small membership numbers. And I would not mind spending a little extra for that to happen.
Gus
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Gus, I know where you are coming from and please take my comments with a large pinch of Trans-Atlantic salt! Our budget is always limited due to the 700 to 800 membership (which has fluctuated between those numbers for decades). If we are to break out of the straight jacket, maybe we should open membership to replica Cobra owners as well? That would boost the numbers and we would see many more cars at our club events, but is that what our members want? I have my doubts. Nik, you are top of the list should we ever employ anyone!
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Ok, just my 2 cents: I can understand that with this number of members a magazine like the one from PCA (Porsche Club of America) is not possible. This magazine is quite impressive but it would be too much for AC. The ACtion magazine has the right charm and is some kind of 'correct' with AC.
But it would be really nice if I could pay the member fee in some kind of electronic form (paypal or bank transfer with SWIFT). If that would be possible I would become a member [:)].
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quote:
Originally posted by shep...maybe we should open membership to replica Cobra owners as well?...
To my knowledge, ACOC membership is not reliant on actual AC ownership, just payment of subs; indeed I know of replica owner members & AC owner non- members! [;)] In the past, there were 'owner' & 'associate' levels of membership, which had different fees and I would assume, differing 'priveleges'. Could reviving this boost numbers?
That said, I believe any club presence at events should be exclusively for AC cars, but this shouldn`t be viewed as 'hostile' or 'snobbish' to or by replica owners, but why not be neighbours?
Possibly a leaf could be taken from the 289Register/GT40Enthusiasts` Clubs` book, where the joint track day at Donington was a great success & likely to be repeated.
The ACOC has a long history of inter-marque challenges!
I`ve just had a brilliant idea....all non-UK residents, send your payments to me and I`ll send the ACOC a cheque...PROMISE!*[:)]
*(Not promising how much for though!)[:0][;)]
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Nik
Just read **the small print ***
I now know what ACOC stands for....
All Commission Of Course.
On a positive note your savings will grow quicker and the MK1V Cobra will be in your garage a few years sooner.
Keith..[;)]..[:)]
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Guys, some simple mathematics.
If you take a look at the cost vs income benefits from an online payment via PayPal, you can easily see that a single online subscription pays for the transaction costs of the next 25 subscribers. Hence, if this option was made available (seriously..., it's dead simple to do and easy to manage), Peter's offer to join the member list would pave the way for the clubs' entry to the 21st century!!!
All it takes is someone on the club management team to set up a club account, watch the cash come pouring in(!), and manage the extraction of said monies from PayPal into the club coffers. Who knows, it may even attract more than one new member to the club and help the club end the year with more membership income than last year ;o)
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/c9oby/Screenshot2011-06-08at200200.png)
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"the clubs entry to the 21st century"??! I say, steady on old chap.
and I 'spose I'd better pay my fees (actually thought I had - must be confused with last year!)
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Congratulations COBY on becoming the new AC Owners`Club Paypal Electronic Revenue Volunteer ExpeRT, now what can we call you for short?! [;)]
Seriously though, great little presentation, although you didn`t take into account that Peter`s payment would generate a net £48.10 & Art`s would be £57.76, being at Euro & US rates!
Another couple of Paypal issue/advantages.
- With Paypal non-UK subscribers can automatically convert currencies,
- When in the 'send a payment' section of the Paypal website, choosing the 'Personal' payment option then gives further option for the payer to pay the recipient`s fees.
- Invoice/reminders could be sent annually, as could 'special event' payments, advertising etc...
Lordy, is that the 21st century ahoy?
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/m/mcIw_xb8YDp3OjsteHnzrPQ/140.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by C9OBY
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, Peter's offer to join the member list would pave the way for the clubs' entry to the 21st century!!!
I love this thought: preserver of the AC universe. Will I get a cape or at least a T-shirt [:I]
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Oh yes! I think a cape, and shiny Speedo trunks to be worn over the trousers!
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Oh yes! I think a cape, and shiny Speedo trunks to be worn over the trousers!
a red one?
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Peter, we're still designing the logo for your cape. Unfortunately, ACOC-man's badge is not allowed to match his car's badge :o(
Perhaps "AC" in the Paypal font?
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quote:
Originally posted by dkp_cobra...a red one?
No, Princess blue, with white stripes! Kinda like this...
(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/23000/Shelby-Cobra-23357.jpg)
[:D]
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I worry about you sometimes........ :-0
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I don't worry so much when I see photos like this, but please no photos of Peter in his newly appointed cape and speedos....
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I agree I would love to be able to pay with Paypal! My membership has been expired for quite a while!
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
I don't worry so much when I see photos like this, but please no photos of Peter in his newly appointed cape and speedos....
That hurts ...
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Sign up, guys, and pay the subs, or there's a good chance this Forum will become an ACOC "Members only" facility.
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Well Said, i am sure we are all happy to assist members, but the Club does need financial support to keep these facilities going, the members that run these do not get paid but do pay there members fees.
Robin
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quote:
Originally posted by administrator
Sign up, guys, and pay the subs, or there's a good chance this Forum will become an ACOC "Members only" facility.quote]
Originally posted by Robin A Woolmer
Well Said, i am sure we are all happy to assist members, but the Club does need financial support to keep these facilities going, the members that run these do not get paid but do pay there members fees.
I don’t think you are hearing your international members and potential members. Why not initiate a 3 or 6 month trial period using an electronic pay system of the ACOC's choice and see if it pays-off (no pun intended)?
Also, making this a members-only forum would be like shooting yourself in the foot. It certainly would not be good for anyone interested in ACs, and not good for the ACOC.
Finally, and I do believe that I speak for all long-distance members, that we truly appreciate all the time and effort that the more local members put into the operation of this club.
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Agreed, making the forum 'Members Only' would be a real shame, although there should be (and is, of course!) a members only area, where more select information, club member discounts & benefits are accessed.
There are A LOT of AC enthusiasts who access the forum, with valuable contributions, valid queries, and who might otherwise struggle to make contact with AC owners, for whom membership would not be a reasonable expense or of sufficient benefit, but as a flip-side to that coin, I believe there are many, many members who 'don`t do computers' or access the forum, which is a pity.
PLEASE consider the open forum as a valuable tool which has probably attracted additional members to the ACOC, promotes The Club in a positive way and is an asset to the Club, it`s members and enthusiast non-members alike.
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Why do we not indicate who are members & those who are not, this would help understand the potential new members & the effect of closing the forum to members only as does the VSCC.
Robin
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I think that`s a limitation of the forum model, Robin, in the same way that we don`t have a gallery or avatars or online status etc. etc., unlike forums that use, for example, vbulletin(CobraClub (http://"http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/general-cobra-discussion/3917-cobra-history-real-replica.html")) or phpBB3(The 289 Register (http://"http://www.the289register.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1148")).
Also, do the club expect family members to have individual memberships, as I read my Dad`s ACtions!
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I see no reason why we cannot know who are paying members using the Forum, yes we need more membership & would like to think those who benifit put something back into the club & not simply take!
The matter is to be discussed soon at the council meeting & i will leave it to the Officers to decide on what if anything should be changed.
The AC owners Club is small approximately 700 members I believe,so let us see more joining even if they are in USA or other clubs, the subscriptions are small compared to the values of owners cars!
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I'll throw in my thoughts here. I am not a member and there are few reasons and the membership payment is not one of them. I own a few different cars in addition to the Aces. I have a 1966 Shelby GT350 carryover, 1972 Pontiac Lemans convertible, a 1994 Mazda Miata (MX-5 to the rest of the world), and a few off road vehicles. Each marque has its own set of clubs and the local ones available are 4 for the Shelby (not including the racing clubs), 3 for the Pontiac, and 2 different British car clubs for the Ace. With an average price of $50/membership, I join the local ones that have events I can attend. This is not to discount the effort that ACOC members have put forth on behalf of AC owners ( it is tremendous), and if I was in the UK I would certainly be an active member. Unfortunately, when I am this far away I go with what is local. As for the forum, if it were closed to only members, I am not sure it would be beneficial to anyone. I would presume ACOC would still run it, but the knowledge/participation base would diminish. Even though I am not a ACOC member I do my best to help out here whenever I can, and I think forum members and myself would lose a bit if I and other non-members were excluded. As was stated above, Thank you to all that help make the forum happen and I appreciate it being available.
Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin A Woolmer...I see no reason why we cannot know who are paying members using the Forum...
Some forum templates allow the use of avatars & icons where we see the username, location & post count,but not this one. You`d have to check with Bryan whether it is possible to add an option box in the user profile to select 'ACOC Member', in the same way that we select location.
Could I select 'member' status though, in place of my Dad, as he is an ACOC member but doesn`t use the forum, whereas I`m the most prolific poster here(and hope I contribute positively in some way, sometimes!)?! [?]
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I'm a former owner and lifelong advocate/fan of AC's since I first read a test in a 1960's US magazine.
I've considered becoming a member to support the ACOC and have access to more info on individual cars and the magazine.
I've not due to the cost (I also belong to 2 other marque clubs here in the US for my current car) in addition to having a poor experience with joining the club when I had an AC. (My selling the car had nothing to do with dissatisfaction with the car or club but rather an immediate need for cash.)
Having a reduced membership with appropriate reduction in benefits would bring me in.
John
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Let me just float the question: if this web site / forum went to 'members only' would those non members be willing to pay a reduced membership subscription to allow them to continue to use this forum?
Why should ACOC members be expected to finance this web site when the majority of users are non members? Yes it is great to read the exchange of information and learn about the cars, but regretfully we live in a world where one can no longer expect something for nothing.
Are those non members ever curious to read the members only pages of this site, or is it just the forum that is of interest?
Terry
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me
Let me just float the question: ...
Terry
While we are floating questions, how about these:
How many members in bad standing would pay their dues NOW if they could do so on-line?
How many would join at a reduced rate without receiving a hard-copy of Action?
How about being able to download PDF files of Action with a reduced membership subscription (no overseas postage)? Offering more in the member's section would probably go a long way in boosting the desire to join.
Finally, how did a plea for electronic dues payment and bringing the ACOC into the 21st century turn into a campaign for a closed forum?
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me...if this forum went to 'members only' would those non members be willing to pay a reduced membership subscription to allow them to continue to use this forum?
Why should ACOC members be expected to finance this web site when the majority of users are non members? Yes it is great to read the exchange of information and learn about the cars, but regretfully we live in a world where one can no longer expect something for nothing.
Are those non members ever curious to read the members only pages of this site, or is it just the forum that is of interest?
Terry
The key point in there is 'exchange' of information.
There have been, over the years, a good many posts from non-members who are not AC enthusiasts per se that are of value to owners/members; be it offering services, pointing members to parts or resources, detailing events etc. 'Locking' the forum would stop these posts, meaning that members pay for a compromised and withered facility.
I`m sure some non-members would be interested in seeing the content of the members only area if they knew what was in there, such as model registries, technical documents, club officers, club regalia etc... but it is right that these remain 'off limits' as the club has put a great deal of effort into compiling the above.
In summary, there is more for members to lose than to gain by 'fencing off' the forum.
As for offering ACtion in 'pdf' format, seems like a great idea to me. Currently there is an index archive dating back to 1990, and the club could charge to download back issues to offset the time & effort of digitising previous issues. [;)]
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Excluding the information that can be gained from non-members would be counter-productive. And very bad PR. Non-members should surely be encouraged!! How can any organisation grow by telling people to go away and leave us alone....?
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Amen Amen! The forum is important for EVERYONE interested in AC cars whatever their creed, members or not. To enjoy the other numerous benefits of ACOC membership, it is perfectly reasonable to pay an annual membership, but the open part of the website is our shop window. By making ourselves open to approach by all, we reinforce the friendly helpful reputation the club has built over the decades. I am all for being inclusive rather than exclusive, and will gladly help anyone who asks. Was it Groucho Marx who said,"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members!"
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
Amen Amen! The forum is important for EVERYONE interested in AC cars whatever their creed, members or not. To enjoy the other numerous benefits of ACOC membership, it is perfectly reasonable to pay an annual membership, but the open part of the website is our shop window. By making ourselves open to approach by all, we reinforce the friendly helpful reputation the club has built over the decades. I am all for being inclusive rather than exclusive, and will gladly help anyone who asks. Was it Groucho Marx who said,"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members!"
Andy
Agree 100%, glad to hear we have someone on the committee who looks long term.
Also agree with Art , Nik and Trevor.
Why The Administrator Should Hi-Jack the constructive cosmopolitan thread discussing " ACOC Subscriptions " and insinuate that He and the ACOC Council would even contemplate making The ACOC Forum Members Only is so counter productive and narrowed minded it beggers belief. !!
It goes totaly against the grain and concept of why the ACOC was initiated / formed back in 1949. A club to assist AC owners and enthusiasts alike, irrespective of Continent and model owned run or just admired. The camaraderie created over the past 60 years is ackowledged and envied by many other marque clubs.
The ACOC web site was constructed to help said owners and enthusiasts to help maintain their AC's on the road and share experiences and vast knowledge with like minded AC enthusiasts, who have owned or wish to own a AC in the future.
Rectricting the much used and useful ACOC Forum to Members Only is Corporate Suicide, .[:(]
Andy in your capacity of Vice Chairman maybe you could have a few words with our Administrator and various ACOC Council Members before they drive many genuine ACOC Members and Enthusiasts away, which would be to the detriment of the ACOC.
Keith..
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I have to say that although I am a member, from my point of view membership is fairly pointless as most of what I learn is from the site. I have made more "Virtual" friends on the site than I have at actual gatherings, but the meetings have been nice to put a face to names.
I do enjoy reading Action magazine and can guarantee that it does get well thumbed, so that I would say is my only real membership benefit. It is well written and edited and a pleasure to pick off the door mat.
Stuck in rural Lincolnshire I struggle to partake in anything much within the club as gatherings are mainly based where the majority live which is in southern England. I do understand that this has to be the case and I'm not whingeing about that, just stating that this is a big issue for those Ooop North or off the beaten track. It’s an even bigger one for our foreign brethren.
I have attended the odd event, but because you haven't appeared before its difficult to get very involved. The new members end up as wall flowers talking to each other. Many of those that are present are old stagers who have known one another for ages and so being on the side lines is inevitable. It’s always an impossible situation to overcome and occurs in clubs up and down the country. There is no solution to this. It’s also the cause of why events like the Dinner Dance struggle.
So coming to my conclusion, I would say that if you want more members you have to make it affordable and easy to join (PayPal). Coupled with making it beneficial to join.
What can be added to the members package that they couldn't otherwise have access to. Preferably globally?
My thoughts are that video "Know your car" programmes and restoration hints would be so helpful. I am pretty sure that many within the club have massive knowledge of their vehicles that they would share. Certainly the likes of Alan Faulkner-Stevens or Robin Woolmer and many others could make a "How to" video for an hour on their chosen subjects.
Anyone got any unseen racing footage? Libraries of Old AC pictures? All only available to view (and undownloadable) in the membership area.
Wouldn’t it be great rather than begging for help on the forum to be able to view a video of what to do to repair you car? A clutch or a heater problem? Brakes wheel alignment? Fuel sender? The videos will never go out of date either. Always valid, always useful.
It would take time and a cost to amass the videos, but I think that is certainly a membership benefit worth paying for.... And globally useful.
Just a thought.
:)
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I just looked at the PayPal website, and it appears that there is a 3.6% transaction fee, a 2.5% currency conversion fee, plus a small fixed-rate fee per transaction.
While this does represent approximately a 7% chunk taken out of each (overseas) transaction, it does seem to make book keeping much easier on the receiving end, and is considerably easier on the purchasers of goods and services.
I got a notice (with my copy of ACtion) that my dues were in arrears. That could be, though I can't really tell, because I have no way to confirm payment at some distance past.
I COULD hire a runner, and book him or her passage on a sailing ship to deliver the coin, though that means of delivery was rendered obsolete in the 19th century with the invention of International Postal services.
In order for me to pay the 60 GBP, I have to (1) get a money order at the Post Office, or (2) send a personal check (which winds up costing me another 50% in fees). Then wait on line to purchase an appropriate stamp to mail the check to the UK. The Postal Service was a great convenience in the 19th century, and still the best option until about 30 years ago. It is no longer 30 years ago, however, so let's catch up with the times.
The ACOC is a very nice, homely car enthusiast club. I enjoy being a part of it, far away though I am from the events and gatherings organised by the club. I assume the 33% greater annual fee for overseas members reflects the great cost of posting ACtion outside the UK.
The ACOC website and ACtion are the major benefits for me. No Dinner Dances, hillclimbs or trophies for me, tucked away in the USA. Same is true for the many interested parties all over the world.
I agree the forum should be open to everyone, member or not. Making membership easier (via PAYPAL or some other means) would most likely attract more paid members, and be financially beneficial to the Club. There should be enhancements to the paid Members area - an enducement to join.
Who know? Maybe regalia sales might pick up. Maybe a significant increase inthe number of annual dues payers might provide enough additional income to hire someone to undertake tasks now performed by volunteers! (Thank you, Club officers and volunteers, for all you do)
The more eyes there are on the ACOC website, the better it is for the ACOC.
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Hi Rev, Don't ever feel the wall flower at an ACOC event. There are loads of interesting people to talk to who will welcome you with open arms. I will be at the Thames Ditton National Day in August so please come and find me. I will happily introduce you or any new face to other members who share similar interests. I can remember not knowing anyone in the Club, but I made a couple of friends at each event and pretty soon I was on the committee. The best way to meet new people is to either break down, or if you have the talent, help someone who has broken down. With ACs it is only a matter of time one way or the other! If Lincs feels a long way out, organise a gathering local to you, and publicise it in ACtion Magazine. I can't guarantee a huge turnout, but you will get to know lots of members. Good luck and see you soon, Andy.
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Regular forum users may be unaware and surprised that there is a strong feeling in parts of the club that it has shot itself in the foot by having a forum AT ALL, never mind one that can be used by non-members which they link directly with declining membership numbers because information is available free. They see this as "corporate suicide". A number of long-standing members will not touch the Forum with the proverbial bargepole, describing it as (quote) awful. Others have told me that they never look at it and never will, and imply they are proud to avoid it. Still others feel very strongly that the Forum should be in the Members' area and that it "beggars belief" that it is not. Nevertheless, the number of regular and semi-regular users exceeds 100 so it has the largest ACOC participation and audience after ACtion. I have argued since the Forum was introduced in the website revamp in 2006 that it should stay in the public area of the site. By no means everyone shares this view.
The subscription level, how easy it is to pay and what is provided for the money are all intertwined and open for debate. There have been some interesting points and ideas raised in this thread. In the UK the annual subscription is less than the cost of a tank of fuel, and putting a cheque in the post is easy. There's no doubt that an electronic method is easier, certainly from overseas. Paypal has been discussed in tha past and will be discussed again. The Direct Debit scheme is a possibility but there are associated financial and administrative (i.e., time) costs. Making ACtion optional, or by electronic download, has been considered but reducing the print run increases costs almost exponentially, so reducing the print run saves very little in printing costs although there is a saving in postage. In other words, you would get little discount on your subscription by opting out of the magazine.
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Well said. Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
Other clubs such as the VSCC do not have a free for all facility on their forums and posting of comment is only open to members.
I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written aboput him and wanted censorship of free speech.
I rest my case.
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quote:
Originally posted by administrator
Making ACtion optional, or by electronic download, has been considered but reducing the print run increases costs almost exponentially, so reducing the print run saves very little in printing costs although there is a saving in postage. In other words, you would get little discount on your subscription by opting out of the magazine.
This does not compute. Home subscription rate = 40 GBP, European subscription rate = 50 GBP, and Other overseas subscription rate = 60 GBP. The 25% increase for European members and the 50% increase for Other overseas members can only be justified based on differences in postage, since all other costs are the same. I don’t know about where you live, but a 50% savings is considered significant in the colonies!
Pity is, this thread wasn't originally about cost, which is trivial; it's about convenience.
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quote:
Originally posted by SBB
Well said. Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
I hope that this is not the common opinion of the members who don't use this forum [:(]
Maybe, it's a question of generation gap and in 20 years we will reach this century.
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Not quite sure how a thread regarding subscription payment has developed in quite such a hostile manner but certainly for me the open forum is essential.
A huge amount of knowledge and information regarding our cars is out there and much of the interesting and knowledgeable information that appears on these pages comes from non ACOC members.
Personally I am very happy to pay my subscription and receive a monthly magazine but my day to day contact with the ACOC is through this forum.
I may not contribute regularly, but like many I log in religiously every day to see whats going on.
Far from being puerile and banal (racing desks springs to mind)threads that head off on some weird tangent offer a light relief to the working day, I just wish I had the wit to join in.
Keep the forum open to all - if the forum was closed to non-members I believe contributions would drop hugely thus diminishing what to me is an essential part of of enjoying the AC owners club.
David
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I would entirely agree with the last few comments and I have to wonder about anyone who feels it's all banality on this forum. Maybe that's why we are not moving into the next century with our payment system either, if the content of our posts are reduced to banality, it must be that the readers with such perceptions have not moved out of the first half of last century. I am quite surprised by the turn this conversation has taken. I can't believe the opinion of some as expressed by the Admin. To me (and I know to others on this forum) it makes me feel as if the ACOC is more of a good old boys club that has difficulty responding to the different needs/wants of their members.
I believe the forum is a wonderful way to meet other owners and non owners to discuss all matters AC and some non-AC, but related, such as race events etc. I, for one, have been able to meet wonderful people who've helped me tremendously with resources to restore my Aceca, hardly the stuff of banality. With as few people knowing anything about AC at all, closing the forum to non members would be a giant mistake. I would argue the web is THE way towards larger membership numbers, which is good for the club and greater awareness of AC cars, which is good for the values. The volunteers' efforts notwithstanding, it appears that the fact that some within the club feel the way the Admin pointed out is exactly why we have small membership numbers and seem to be struggling with expenses. As with one of the other posters on this thread: my benefits from membership are rather limited. I only get the ACtion. However, as I've mentioned before, I'd be willing to pay more for it, simply to support the vehicle that allows fans of the brand to communicate and have an organization that keeps records as well as distributes knowledge.
I find it hard to believe that a very simple question is met with so much resistance. During all the time wasted online, I'm sure the online Paypal pay system could have been set up, and ACOC would have received my membership renewal through it already. If my suggestions and those of others, whom seem to be the most frequent users of this forum, are simply ignored, it seems to me the forum would become obsolete. Just look at who most frequently posts and listen to the needs of your highest users. It would seem to me any club should take those suggestions to heart. Any business would listen to the needs of their best clients, or they would be out of business....oh, wait, that seems to be the problem here as well....
Gus
And sorry, Peter, she looks a lot better in that outfit than you ever could...
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Well said all those who support the forum. It is without doubt the most interactive element of the Club. Action is great for content but let's face it a printed magazine is outdated and over expensive compared to what could be published online. So Publish Action online and then by all means (preferably paypal) charge an annual fee to use the forum and a higher fee to receive the printed copy. Anyone with the meerest of intent will be happy to pay say £20 to access a years bulletins and club info. Those that want a printed copy can have one printed off from a PDF and posted out. The saving on commercial printing costs would more than cover the cost of a decent printer.
An alternative view is that as the club is in funds and currently self-financing, if the dinosaurs insist let them have
their way and stick with the printed Action but don't let the luddites spoil the club for future generations by scrapping the current set up of the forum which is clearly so successful. After all if they don,t like what they see they don,t have to look at it.
Meanwhile if anyone wants to pay their subs but is dissuaded by the costs of currency conversion, cheque fees etc then I,ll pay your subs on receipt of a paypal transfer:
club gets it's subs you get your mag, simple as that???
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One more thing, for the record: I argue that the overseas members should pay less. As one argued before me that it would not be fair for members to pay for the forum, for non members to have access, on those terms I suppose as an overseas member I should not have to pay for the follies of UK members, that overseas members don't have access to.
Rings kind of familiar: Taxation without representation, I believe some time ago the English lost some tea over that argument....[;)]
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Excellent and well said Gus! Yes, with an electronic payment system, I would be current on my membership, Actually the club could keep my credit card number on file and renew automatically once a year, that would be fine. I think the forum is a great way for us to exchange information for free and in the interest of the AC marque. The problem is not the cost but the difficulty to renew for us foreign patrons, we already spend (I speak about myself) so much time on the internet looking at various car related sites that an online form of payment would be welcomed and if the fee goes up a little to cover the cost Amen! Just my 2 cents!
Emmanuel [8D]
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quote:
Originally posted by SBB
Well said. Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
Other clubs such as the VSCC do not have a free for all facility on their forums and posting of comment is only open to members.
I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written about him and wanted censorship of free speech.
I rest my case.
The truth hurts I guess! My opinion is that the forum helps the brand, any open discussion about these cars is welcomed publicity and more specifically abroad. Do you think the average American would be willing to spend a dime on a prewar AC, a Bristol or a 428 if the Cobra never existed, I say no. Not because the cars were not good or not fun, but just because they would not have known about them, there are so few to go around. Carroll Shelby put AC on the map outside of England and so do the various forums and replica manufacturers so often criticized here.
This forum is a great way to exchange ideas and tips about our cars and when these members who dislike the forum so much receive a fat check upon the sale of their car to some Yankee, they should be thankful that it exists and that it is very likely the buyer became interested and knowledgeable in AC while browsing the forum.
We all have the same passion, so let's enjoy and have fun.
Now it's 3 cents worth!
Emmanuel [:(!]
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It's been interesting to read the various comments and replies here, as although I was a regular member of the club any years ago, I have not been for some time due to other committments in my life, although I enjoy reading some of the forum and sometimes making comments if I feel it would be useful or entertaining or indeed complimentary to other contributors.
I was surprised to read a couple of the replies above as they were almost vitriolic in their nature ( from what I take to be club members as their intials are familiar to me ) and hopefully not representative of the majority of members. This kind of blinkered attitude would be one very good reason for me not to rejoin the club.
I feel disappointed if my occasional writings were considered banal or puerile as I hope some of the information I have offered about Frua's from when I previously owned them may have been some use to classicus for the register updates, or indeed other AC 428 owners. I have made contact with some very pleasant people here and in America through the forum, something that I would not have been able to do through the club magazine.
Fortunately the world is made up of people with different personalities and senses of humour, so what one person finds puerile, another may find amusing or informative.
Regarding differences in club subscriptions between the UK and International I am sure this is largely down to the cost of posting Action and other club correspondance overseas. My American friends are probably not aware, but our UK postal charges are relatively quite high compared to many other countries, and especially for international postage. I know as I often post small packages to the USA and Far East and it costs me significantly more to post them out, than the ammount my overseas counterparts pay to send similar size packages to me here in the UK.
Regarding electronic payments, I myself was a late starter into internet banking and Paypal but I think the club might find it very workable with no appreciable increase in costings.
I assume the ACOC Ltd has a business account? If this is linked to a personal account at the same bank branch ( I am sure that the person that administers the club bank account can be trusted ) then internet banking can be done completely free of all charges ( we bank with Barclays both personally and with our Company accounts and I can make and receive payments from our business accounts IN THE UK free of any charges ). Conversely I have to pay a bank charge for each cheque that we pay into our company bank account so internet banking is actually cheaper for us. Of course club members should have the option to pay by cheque, debit card, credit card ( with a small commission fee ) or by electronic transfer. With regards to Paypal for anyone that uses it, when you select the 'SEND MONEY' box there are 2 tabs to choose from, the one that always comes up first thats says 'PURCHASE'. This is best avoided as the recipient is charged a commission for receiving the money. If you select the 'PERSONAL' tab and then highlight 'PERSONAL PAYMENT OWED' then there is NO CHARGE to the recipient ( even if you are paying for goods or membership as Paypal would not know this). You can of course select which currency to send the money in so overseas members would be able to select UK Pounds and will be charged a conversion fee by Paypal so the club would bear no other costs. The only charge I'm not sure about would be what Paypal charges to withdraw the funds into a bank account, as sadly I never seem to take money out of my Paypal account !!!
Regarding international Swift payments I think that as long as the overseas sender remembers to tick the box 'PAY ALL CHARGES' and sends the money in UK currency the club should not be charged anything to receive the money.
I'm not averse to chat about Replica Cobras and I suspect that the huge growth in the market for Cobra kits in the last 30 years has made many people worldwide more aware of genuine AC Cobras and quite probably enhanced their increase in values ( that might be good or bad depending on your point of view or whether you are an owner or non owner ). The clue to the size of membership might be in the name of the club... AC 'OWNERS' Club. Perhaps this scares off enthusiasts that are not actually owners as they feel they would not be welcome to join. I think the club is actually quite a good size considering the relative rarity of AC's compared to some other makes so perhaps too many members would make it harder to administer for the much appreciated volunteers that run the club.
My apologies for my long ramblings here, especially if much of it is repetitive or indeed puerile.......
Best regards
PS Emmanuel I don't think the club would be allowed to keep your credit card details on file here due to our UK DATA storage and protection laws !
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Thanks for all the comments which I would describe as 'honest' rather than 'hostile'. The wide range of opinions is clear.
I will again raise the matter of electronic subs payments at the next Council meeting.
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As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership, and sit on the sidelines carping and sniping, they will also find any excuse to take personal exception to a basic comment as has this Richard the Lion Heart charcter. Please re-read what I said before jumping up and down in non-member indignity.
I said MUCH of what is written is banal and puerile. No one was singled out as Richard thinks he has been.
Fortunately the majority of what is on the forum is useful and constructive.
However, the Club's website is its shop window to the world of potential new members.. It should not be covered with the graffiti of girls in bikinis and moaning non-members comments about why they are either lapsed or not going to join.
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Hello,
I'm your newest member and extremely disappointed to see some of these rather extreme comments - I guess for some people it will always be "the right crowd and no crowding"........
BUT if this Forum is getting too heavy/tedious for some of you, cash in on the Thames Ditton jobs, have a new exact "replica" racer built or buy a plastic CRS or Suprblower and move over to the MKVI and CRS Forum,[8D] its more fun, more lively, the links and discussions are of today and by god the beer is better - no matter what you drink!
(Sorry, I'll go back to the corner now)
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Dear Simon,
Clearly most felt your comments were hostile, and personally I think your comments on your last post are unnecessarily inflammatory.
So take some responsibility and apologize instead of back pedaling.
With regards to your comments on girls on bikinis etc, I venture to say that most, if not all of the members and non members that frequently use this forum look at this as lighthearted banter.
If you ever venture out on other forums, you will see that this is not an uncommon thing. I highly doubt that this is bad advertising for the club, as I'm sure that other forums are far larger with far greater participation. In other words, maybe the ACOC forum is still too stuffy, but I suppose we can disagree on that. And for the record: this thread started with the ease of payment argument. I am a member who has not submitted the last pay stub... eagerly awaiting for the club to move with the swiftness of a modern 21st century organization... I wonder when the next committee meeting is, I suppose this matter can't be settled with a few phone calls...
In closing I would argue that you should come on the forum more often than 22 times and post valuable information that does not fall into your category of "puerile and banal". Maybe that will aid in tipping the balance of material quality in your favor....[:D][;)]
Gus
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Dear Simon, I'm well aware of who you are and what AC's you have had and do still own and your long-standing position in the club and support you have give to it over many years ( I was a member throghout the 1980's before I moved away from Ac's due to other committments). I mm sorry if I offended you as this was not intended, but you did indeed say 'Much of what is written' which to me means almost the same as 'Majority'. I do read most of the forums as I still have an interest in AC's vintage and modern and actually I did not feel that I had been singled out, in fact I agree that sometimes some comments written are indeed irrelevant but on the whole they interest a fair number of people, both memebers and non members. I was rather hoping that my feedback in my previous comment on types of payment might be useful for the club. It is not easy to tell on the forums who are members and who are not, but most of the people I have chatted with are indeed members and I hope are not offended by my occasional presence on the forum. Regarding your comment about Lubinski it's not really for me to voice an opinion as I dont know the facts of what happened to upset him, but I do think it is out of order for the club to not be allowed to use the AC logo. As my family has been involved in the classic car trade for over 40 years I don't join clubs as I could quite reasonably substantiate joining 30 or 40 different clubs based on the range of cars we are sometimes involved with over a period of time. It's not a case of saving a few pounds and carping on the sidelines, It's just not practical to join several clubs and I would feel I was not supporting them as I would never have time to attend events. Once again I hope I did not offend as this was not my intention, but if the club wishes to expand memebership then surely they also need to listen to feedback from non-members,
My best regards, Brett Lyons ( lyonheart84 just happens to be my e-mail address based on my surname, nothing pretentious to do with the King with a different spelling, or were you just making a banal comment LOL ). I am joking with you here Simon, I hope you appreciate the humour from my end as well
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quote:
Originally posted by SBB
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership, and sit on the sidelines carping and sniping, they will also find any excuse to take personal exception to a basic comment as has this Richard the Lion Heart charcter. Please re-read what I said before jumping up and down in non-member indignity.
I said MUCH of what is written is banal and puerile. No one was singled out as Richard thinks he has been.
Fortunately the majority of what is on the forum is useful and constructive.
However, the Club's website is its shop window to the world of potential new members.. It should not be covered with the graffiti of girls in bikinis and moaning non-members comments about why they are either lapsed or not going to join.
Me thinks something stinks in yonder ACOC clubhouse... and it can't be the non-member cuckoos!
...and lyonheart84, you are obviously a gentlemen and a scholar, and there are few of us left! [:D]
Again, let's focus on the topic, electronic bill pay for membership subscription. It really is a no-brainer, at least for those with functioning synapses. [;)]
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Thank you for your kind words ANF289
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Clifford - are you serious about your offer to receive subscription payments via PayPal?
If so, perhaps those of us watching this debate should demonstrate what might be achieved by using this simple, time and cost-effective way of keeping current with dues.
It is not laziness, or reluctance to Pay dues. It is not a matter of the 60 GBP cost of Overseas dues. The subject of this thread, it has repeatedly been pointed out, was electronic bill payment. You know... Commerce in THIS CENTURY!
I had a couple of Bristols, and belong to the Bristol Club. Unfortunately, the Bristol club is small and has nothing like the ACOC Forum. While it is a fine club, I had some difficulty finding resources available in my area. This was not the fault of the club.
Because the ACOC Forum is so informative and energetic, and because I was able connect with others in my area, my interest in AC has risen considerably, while enthusiasm for Bristol (Fine Cars though they were) has declined. I have now (regrettably) sold both Bristols.
However do the Naysayers think a younger audience for AC's will appear?
I'm willing to wager there are more multimillionaire car enthsiasts in the world under 30 years of age than there are surviving AC automobiles. What kind of Club would successful, interesting younger people of means like to join? AC's have found their way all over the Globe. The people who own AC's want to USE their cars, not stick them in a big garage and stare at them like many Ferrari owners do. (I do not wish to suggest that being "rich" is an essential quality. But the car hobby is not cheap, unfortunately. It's a luxury)
It's even possible, if the prospect of putting one's car and oneself on an airplane to the UK were attractive enough, Some of the far-flung owners might even attempt to join in some of the events the club organizes.
The Forum is attractive. Rising values of any AC makes the possibility of restoring the cars a better proposition. A lively club with helpful members willing to share information about parts or resources around the world can only be a good thing for the reputation and enjoyment of AC cars.
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quote:
Originally posted by SBB
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership,
I'm not a member.
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I've held back from a few earlier posts, but can hold back no longer.
I am under 40, have a CRS and a MK4, have been a fully paid up member for almost 7 years, and regularly link up with the Surrey crowd and various other AC- and non-AC classic car events. I have attended a few AGM's, have chatted to various council and 'ordinary' members on these and other topics, and fully support the open club forum. I'm not a millionaire (yet!) but enjoy a hand's-on approach to my cars and opinions, and often assist other members with advice on various aspects of my cars, learnt from first hand experience on my own cars. So, I'm hopefully the sort of person that the club would like to maintain and attract.
However, it is with regret that I find that I've reached a tipping point with regards to my membership, due to some of the comments made by the administrator, SBB and a few other 'officials' of the club, both on this topic and others. True club colours are being shown in response to overseas (and local) requests for 'progress'.
Some background: Contrasting with the very many positive experiences I've enjoyed within the club over the years, and friends made, I have also first-hend experienced some very unpleasant individuals and o'ld-guard' stuck-in-the-mud types for whom the sanctity of the club has been breached by newer members (i.e. Those outside the old-boys club who did not inherit the family silver, the family AC and the country estate). There are obviously exceptions to this generalisation, and they will know who they are (so don't take offence), but the council still remains held in a vice-like grip/influence by people of a certain age who appear to dislike progress. It's already been mentioned that many refuse to even look at the forum, it's mere existence being an insult to their preserved view of what the club should be. Yet these will be the same people who will be sitting on the panel to adjudicate on paypal payments? I can already predict the outcome of that decision!
Exhibit 2: Bloody Johnny Foreigner in my club? What ho, what is the world coming to? For those who don't know me, I am South African, and proud of it. The most offensive moment of my membership was sitting at an official club dinner table opposite a long standing member on my first AC International, only to be told in front of everyone that England would never be properly 'cleansed' until every last one of my bloody countrymen had been returned to where we'd come from! I've had other comments over the years regarding my nationality (once again at the annual dinner-dance), plus (more annoyingly) disparaging comm£ents regarding the 'eligibility' of my membership due to my 'imposter' CRS not being a real AC (see many postings on this topic elsewhere on these forums...).
Hence, why has the request for paypal has stirred such a storm on this forum? I suspect that it's the very nature of this 20th century request has hit at a nerve of resentment by the old guard that I have seen manifest in other ways at club gatherings over my 7 years here.
I no longer want to remain a member of this club that so obviously does not want to listen to (or respect) many of it's members! I think the time has come to throw in the towel. I can get the info I need for my cars from friends or the motor trade. Perhaps I'll set up my own online forum exclusively for owners AND enthusiasts of the various MKIV variants, with NO membership fees beyond the odd beer at gatherings that I'm happy to arrange for like-minded individuals.
And then I'll wait for 10 years, by which time the majority of the old guard who are strangling this club will have moved on to their eternal slumber, leaving a younger and more welcoming group of owners with the last laugh. That's assuming that the club survives until then...
There are some enthusiastic, passionate and progressive individuals waiting in the shadows to take over the leadership of this club, but they are being held back by old school politics. I suggest that other members join me and vote with their wallets and refuse to re-sign their membership forms unil such time as significant change is made to the club. If I'm wrong and nobody agrees with me, my departure will be an insignificant blip to already-dwindling membership numbers. But if you do agree, then the only way to effect change appears to be via 'shareholder revolt', as evidence over recent years suggests that rhetoric is getting us nowhere.
Until then, it's over and out, and out the door I go.
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Wow, very well said. Not having been at any of the events in the UK, simply because I am one of those foreigners, I did not want to chime in on that level, but it certainly appeared to me, as I've posted before, that it is a good old boys club.
I think the club leadership would surprise itself by listening closely to all these comments and make a serious attempt to re-invent itself. The club would leap forward in ways unforeseen, or maybe unwanted by its stuffy partakers...
I have not brought this to the forum to date, but one example of what bothered me specifically about the club leadership and it's obvious desire to stay in the previous century, is the fact that it is unwilling to recognize my AC 2.6 Ruddspeed ace and add it to the register. The reasons why are for another post, in case anyone is interested to hear, however i can tell you they are inconsistent with what has occurred with other cars that did get recognition and they are inconsistent with they way SAAC registers genuine cars. And I believe ACOC aligns itself with SAAC on matters involving registry of genuine cars.
Never mind that my car has a genuine RS number, is in the original AC registry and has been certified by Lubinsky. And it's titled as a 1962 AC. Maybe the club is too arrogant and unwilling to recognize the fact there were cars built under the AC banner after the shelby and autokraft years... As much as Lubinsky might be a dirty word in the eyes of some at ACOC, the fact is that he owns the brand and that under that banner some cars were produced and are legitimate. Steve Grey has produced some himself. Wonder if he were able to get his to be entered into the club's registry...
That episode really disappointed me and I thought I was being a little sensitive about the answer I got, but maybe there is some real truth to the attitude of club leadership.
I will re instate my membership when the club has the means to let me do so electronically, either through Paypal or credit card. Mind you, my company organizes a race for charity in our town. We set up a paypal account to receive payment in a matter of 1 hour. It is no rocket science.
Lastly, the points on wealthy people having interest in AC cars should be very important to the club's leadership. The interest in AC's and it's owner's club worldwide will die with the stuffy generation that is causing such controversy over this thread. And with that, prices of AC's will drop like bricks. I don't own my cars for investment purposes, I drive them, a lot. But I sure would like to see a club that has vision for the future, not one that is resistant to moving into the future...
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by C9OBY
…The most offensive moment of my membership was sitting at an official club dinner table opposite a long standing member on my first AC International, only to be told in front of everyone that England would never be properly 'cleansed' until every last one of my bloody countrymen had been returned to where we'd come from! I've had other comments over the years regarding my nationality (once again at the annual dinner-dance), plus (more annoyingly) disparaging comments regarding the 'eligibility' of my membership due to my 'imposter' CRS not being a real AC (see many postings on this topic elsewhere on these forums...).
I did not intend for a simple request to update the way we pay our dues to trigger a revolution, but clearly breaking free from the golden age of AC aristocracy into the 21st century, although rooted in the same mindset, goes beyond the concept of electronic bill pay. Quitting is not the answer C9OBY, that just gives the ol’ guard what they want, a purer club (which is as offensive and frightening as it sounds). A better solution for us all, and the ACOC in particular, would be to recruit more South African members!
Despite this newly recognized AC snobbery, I am still willing to re-up my membership as soon as an electronic bill pay option becomes available, primarily because of this forum and the wealth of AC-relevant information it contains.
Gus, I would love to hear more about the battle over your AC 2.6 Ruddspeed ace… maybe in a new thread.
Art
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As a Club registrar i have read this thread with great interest. Firstly, i want to thank all the Members/enthusiasts from across parts of the globe who contribute. Due to the low volume production numbers of our cars, no help what-so-ever from the manufacturer, the Forum reaches many people and with that makes available a huge raft of knowledge and experience. I have found that genreally the people who contribute are genuine, if a little tongue in cheek sometimes. I am worried because our Club appears to have two distinct groups, the early boys [the very valuable cars], and the later owners, MkIV's etc. There are of course exceptions to this, but personally owning a CRS often makes me feel like the very poor relation. The fact i own 3 genuine Shelby Mustangs also does nothing to help at all. As a very minor Club official, the Forum is an excellent way of reaching other members with serious problems. For instance, the CRS front suspension top mount failure. People/owners need to be aware of these things. The fact the owners of the AC brand denied the problem is neither here nor there, the info needs to be availble to a larger audience. Fundamentally, i don't care whether you are a member or not, if you have something decent to say/valuable piece of experience to pass on, please do so its important. I am saddened to say in the AC old guard there are some serious stiff shirts who don't like us new boys with our modern ways and strange technology but they are a dying breed who i beleive strangle the Club. I would ask this though, these straight laced people who don't like the Forum etc, what are they doing to promote the Club or get our cars our to a wider audience? When i go to a car show, i would say if there is a Cobra there it is a MkIV with a friendly owner who is willing to talk to the public about their car. Without letting people know about our cars how are we going to get people who are outside the AC circle interested in our vehicles, perhaps aspire to one, and join the Club thus bringing fresh blood/ideas and of course subscriptions. As a Shelby Mustang owner also i read a post which discussed the fact the early cars had reached such heady values they had automatically excluded 90% of interested enthusiasts who with families/commitments could never hope to own such a car. However, when Shelby produced his new Shelby GT from 2006 at an affordable price, he opened the brand up to a completely new audience, thus reinvigorating the Shelby name. New younger people could own a piece of the history, this is no different to the late AC cars MKIV/CRS etc. Without these new members our Club is going to die out. Please member/non-members don't give up on this Club or writing on the Forum, without your input its nothing.
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Credit Card Method of payment has been available for a long time as i understand it,as most modern people have one, i do not understand why dues are therefor not paid.
Robin
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Robin,
filling your number out on a paper and than mailing it in is not the same as going onto the website and entering your data like with any web based retail business. Having your number written down on some paper greatly increases risk of fraud. I don't like it.
Gus
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Gus
I understand & agree, lets hope things will be resolved very soon, we need to get out of this mode & back into supporting each other to improve their cars & solve any problems, i would like to see more members wherever they may be then perhaps improvements can be made for all to enjoy.
Regards
Robin
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It sounds like Thursday's ACOC Council meeting will be a busy one. It's interesting that the posts from members and non members who I know or have corresponded with, are positive. I always look on the bright side, and see a whole world full of really great enthusiasts who want to share their knowledge and experience. Long may it continue. Anyone who is on the tipping point of not renewing their membership, please think positively and lets all make the ACOC OURS! We are the future, and maybe that means change. Let's be sensible and embrace the good changes, and drop the negative influences whether they be old or new. Hell, we're a car club not bickering politicians! Andy.
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Sounds wonderful, but I'm afraid that is not the sentiment of many as I understand it. I'll just await and see what happens.
Gus
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Live in hope! Why is it that 740 members are happy to go with the flow, but the 10 who don't are the ones who stand out and get remembered? Like a lot of modern life, we seem to dwell too much on the disasters because that is what sells newspapers. Let it go and concentrate on what we can enjoy.
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There are several Council Members who have contributed to this thread who will be attending the Council meeting this coming Thursday evening.
To reiterate the main point to be resolved is payments to the Club by PayPal, or a similar method, regardless if they are for subs or regalia payments.
Should any member/non member wish to have a question raised on their behalf relating to this thread please note it down before, lets say, Wednesday midnight UK time.
Terry
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Correct Terry,
However, considering the very strong feelings voiced here recently and in private among members, I hope that the counsil meeting will encourage open discussion about the fact that there are people who are unwilling to re-instate their membership based an recent and previous events.
I would suggest that the club strongly considers inviting all member's opinions on it's organization and invite commentary and suggestions for change in more ways than one. I am not in the UK and therefore not privy to behind the scenes discussions at events etc, however it seems to me there are more than just a few people unhappy as Shep puts it. And some of those hold him in very high regard and in my opinion are very valuable contributors to the knowledge distributed on matters AC.
So, I could be wrong, but I believe what started with a simple question on ease of payment has become a referendum on the club in the eyes of some. And that is not necessarily a bad thing. I do think that the club would stand the risk of getting competition from people interested in setting up another club. In my view ACOC would be much better off avoiding that by changing some of it's ways...
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by SBB
Well said. Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
Other clubs such as the VSCC do not have a free for all facility on their forums and posting of comment is only open to members.
I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written aboput him and wanted censorship of free speech.
I rest my case.
Terry Webb, Bryan Moseley & Simon Bathurst Brown
The initial cosmopolitan thread ( 19th May 2011) was discussion on Payment of Membership, This produced some 33 constructive responses.
There then followed from 17th June to the 23rd June a series of Sign Up and Pay Subs or theres a GOOD CHANCE this FORUM will become ACOC MEMBERS ONLY !.... Culminate in the equivalent of Verbal Diarrhea from SIMON BATHURST BROWN..[:(!]..[V]
The **** hit the fan and there followed the most vigorous and damaging series of responses, again very Cosmopolitan representing England, USA and Europe. In a matter of 4 days 33 Responses. [:0].
A record number of responses to a single topic. Since the start of our FORUM......... Surely this makes a SERIOUS STATEMENT ! 85 Replies and read 2319 times
So please do not brush these subjects under the carpet at the forthcoming Council Meeting ( Thursday 30th June ). Address both subjects... The Initial prior
to being Hi-Jacked reference:-
PAYMENT of ACOC MEMBERSHIP and secondly the subject that has roused so such venom
THE FUTURE of THE ACOC FORUM. ..[:(]
Both subjects need to be addressed and hopefully uncensored Minutes are published in ACtion in order that those members who have yet to visit the FORUM and are blindly unaware of the internal politics of the ACOC are Privy to all the facts and can draw their own conclusions.
Please be constructive, discuss openly and democratically and not take the ACOC down the slippery slope, We have lost our AC LOGO, lets not put another nail in the Coffin.. The ACOC deserves better, it has lasted 62 years so please treat it with the respect it deserves
Keith..[:)]..[:)]
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Amen!
Counsil meetings should be open to attendance of interested members.
Meeting minutes should be verbatim and posted on the forum.
ACOC needs to revise it's policies and attitude towards later cars and on it's registry or, lack thereof,
of perfectly legitimate AC cars, similar to SAAC's registry recognizing and cataloging cars from the post AC/Shelby era.
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raise the total fess and allow those of us that wish to pay by Paypal or some form of credit card and be done with it>
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quote:
Originally posted by ANF289
Originally posted by jbottini
raise the total fess and allow those of us that wish to pay by Paypal or some form of credit card and be done with it>
The ACOC should be able to provide electronic bill pay and still lower the international fees by eliminating postage and providing PDF files of Action in the members-only section.
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Are there any ways to negotiate or somehow sway Lubinski for the club to be able to use the AC logo again? Don't forget it's in his interest to be positively depicted here. He does own the AC brand and I imagine he is producing cars. I think the Club has such a long history that it can bring legitimacy to any new endeavor. AC need the ACOC and vice versa. Shelby had a fight with SAAC a little while ago but they made up, both realized they needed each other. I think the same is true here. He may own the brand but without the support of the club and it's members, it's meaningless.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Rest assured I will be there on Thursday, and will support a proposal to make electronic transfer of subscriptions possible. As you all know, I also support keeping the Forum open to all, as it provides a wonderful source of information to all AC enthusiasts, whether members or not. My concerns with the recent exchanges have been the tone and language. Please don't rise to the bait, let it calm down a bit, and the Club will take notice of the positive suggestions. Regarding the Council meetings, they are open to members who would like to attend. Anyone who wishes to give their time for free will be welcomed onto the Council, irrespective of age, wealth or possession of family silver! A couple of Council Posts will become vacant this year, and will be advertised. Minutes of the meeting are circulated to Council Members, but a decision was taken not to publish them on the Website as the detail can easily be misinterpreted by those who did not hear the full discussion. If anyone wishes to take Terry's invitation to add to the agenda this Thursday, this is your chance to contribute, but please be positive. Andy
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As one of the younger council members I really just want to support what Andy has suggested above, we are all well aware of issues regarding payment options for both subscriptions and regalia. If nothing else this thread has reinforced the need to move this situation beyond debate and in to action.
Incidentally those forum contributors that believe the Council all to be "Old Guard" a couple of facts below.
Age range of Council members from 40's to 70's (number of Council members = 19)
Whilst all Council members happen to own Ac's the cars owned represent pretty much the entire AC catalog.
Vintage, PVT, 2ltr, Ace, Aceca, Greyhound, Cobra, 428, 3000ME, Mk4, Ace Brooklands and CRS.
David Goose
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Again, as a "foreigner" and never having met any of you all, I can't have a proper objective opinion on the matter, so I form mine on my impressions and on what I read as well as communications I've had with others on the forum. I suppose it's not so much the actual age of the counsil members as it is the way the counsil moves. I appreciate the last post, however it comes across to me as a defense of leaving matters they way they are (other then payment) rather than taking an open mind to other matters as well. I think Bruce Claassen's post should not be shoved under the rug as a single rogue comment. There should be absolutely no room whatsoever for any of the membership to have his kind of experience. It is in-defensible. So, I understand we all should move forward with a positive attitude, but I read between the lines that the counsil feels that everything will be just hunky-dory if we all are just happy, rather than taking this thread very seriously and being willing to accept the fact that there is a strong under current that is unhappy with the way things are done. Did you guys read Keith's post? Really? I'm assuming he is a highly respected member in the ACOC. He frequents the events, properly uses his Ace, frequently posts on the forum, is always willing to help other owners and disseminates information all the time about the cars/brand. Are you reading what is being said? Constructive criticism is a very good thing. People are upset because they care, not because they are indifferent.
Gus
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Hi Gus,
You are absolutely right in what you say and this thread has lead to much constructive criticism but also to some surprising, for me anyway, hostility towards other club members.
Keith and Bruce are both highly respected within the Club but it would seem that things have been said in the past which have led to a certain degree of I'll feeling.
I don't believe an open forum is the place to air opinions on individual members but I also don't believe for one moment that these comments will be ignored.
David
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
Minutes of the meeting are circulated to Council Members, but a decision was taken not to publish them on the Website as the detail can easily be misinterpreted by those who did not hear the full discussion. If anyone wishes to take Terry's invitation to add to the agenda this Thursday, this is your chance to contribute, but please be positive. Andy
Andy, I am sorry to say but this is the type of elitist argument always used by dictators. TRANSPARENCY is always better, given the whole context is provided accurately with the minutes, then members will get it right. Making minutes available to club members would go a long way towards appeasing disgruntled or disillusioned members who think the club is ruled by an old elitist clan.
Incidentally, this is also why I like living in the US versus old Europe, there is way more openness and transparency here. Andy, this is not a personal attack towards you or anyone else individually but just my personal opinion regarding information sharing by the board.
Emmanuel
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How appalling to see the comment on verbal diarrhea for agreeing with comments made by the Webmaster and adding some words of comment.
This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell properly.
Such base insults have no place in a club of any standing and are utterly disgusting from the individual concerned.
As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
To see an example of how a forum should be run and its rules and guidelines, refer to the Bristol Owners' Club website.
However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
To anyone looking in from the outside this must appear absolutely disgraceful and must have put more nails in the coffin than can be imagined. The writer should be utterly ashamed of such comments.
As far as membership payments are concerned, I constructively suggest the Club's Council of Management does some research into how other clubs manage this situation and then in the light of those findings, decide what, if any, are the best changes to be made for the benefit of the ACOC and its future smooth running and success.
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Apologies for my apparent absence, but I'm currently overseas with very limited access to computers etc. Blackberry's are not the perfect tool for the forum!
I want to clarify a few points, so that some of them can be positively shared at tomorrow's council meeting that I would have attended had I been in the UK.
I do not believe that my comments are a minority view. There are other points I could have raised, however, I said that initial (then sustained) resistance to paypal (or simliar) payment mechanisms from the club (plus other comments re older members views of the existence of the forum) were the tipping point, not the sole cause, of my comments. There are a lot of people who are not comfortable saying what I have said in public, but they have certainly made similar comments in private. Ignoring them is something that the club should be advised to avoid. This is especially relevant as a common topic at each of the last 3 AGM's that I attended spent a good few minutes bemoaning the fact that numerous members continued to delay/avoid paying their fees. There are more reasons for this than 'method of payment' alone.
I really do not believe that I am only one of 10 out of 740 members who have very strong concerns regarding the leadership of this club. Nor do I believe that I am the sole person who's felt excluded or marginalised by actions of the club. There are a host of non-Thames Ditton car owners who have also been marginalised or made to feel uncomfortable. I can recall two events within the last 12 months where MKIV owners were specifically EXCLUDED from attending/participating at "AC-bannered" events - this sort of behaviour should NOT be tolerated, let alone supported by publication in the ACtion magazine.
Andy, you are a far better politician than I, and I really do believe that a leader in your style would do a lot more for this club than we currently see. Hence I hope that this rather popular topic (thanks for the statistics Keith!) does not get swept under the carpet or summarised into 'paypal' and 'forum' only discussion. I have said in the past and I'll say it again, that I'm more than happy to be directly involved in the club in order to bring about change. But at the same time, if a man is measured by the company he keeps, I would not be not be prepared to sit alongside elitist or prejudiced people who think that they can run the club for their own benefit.
To clarify - I was not so upset by the anti RSA comments themselves. I was rather more upset that on both occasions that those comments were made in public, not a single person who overheard those comments came up to me to apologise. Hence I must assume that those comments were shared by the company I was sitting with. Not necessarily a generalisation or club policy, but it was what I experienced nonetheless. More concerning are the numerous times people not sitting in a Thames Ditton car are made to feel 'lesser members', either directly or subversely; you cannot describe it until you've experienced it, so nobody who's not experienced it cannot say it doesn't exist.
Here's a suggestion. Why don't council members should put themselves up for public vote, both in ACtion and on the Forum, along with a short bio on what they intend to do for/with the club? The membership then votes, and majority rules. All members who believe that they already have the required majority support would have nothing to fear. (I'll let you decide whether we use the AV or 'first past the post' system ;o) ). Andy, Bryan, David, I'm sure that your places would be assured, and I am sure that many on the forum are glad for your engagement in this discussion.
As a matter of interest, how many committee members actually attend each council meeting each month? I note David's comments regarding the cars of the mark represented, but attendance at many club events is a little different. Furthermore, the proportion of Thames Ditton cars vs non-TD cars participants and events is again skewed to the latter, so which demographic is really supporting and publicising the club? Voting rights should possibly be re-balanced.
Age is a relative thing - there are 70's who are young at heart, and 30-somethings already preparing their resting place. However, the issue raised in my comments is closer to those who see a car club as being an extension of the 'gentlemen's club' era, versus those of a more modern and less exclusive persuasion. Hence it's not the age issue so much as 'what is this club trying to be, and who is it trying to attract'.
Terry, you posted the following earlier: "Should any member/non member wish to have a question raised on their behalf relating to this thread please note it down before, lets say, Wednesday midnight UK time..". I'm sorry, but this sort of request is part of the problem. Why should a member have to specifically ask for an item to be minuted and added to the council agenda for discussion? It appears that the council is too tied up in 'agenda protocol' and administration to properly identify and address issues. My comment is not specifically directed at you, rather it is directed at the manner in which meetings can be stifled by 'process' and 'etiquette', rather then dealing with the issues.
I've had some very supportive emails in private, but only one council member has contacted me for further discussion. If the council would prefer that I shut up and disappear, just tell me publically on this forum and I'll do so. But please do not suggest or infer that I am a dissident individual with an axe to grind.
I really hope that the club turns the corner, but something really needs to be fixed asap in order for it to last another 62 years. In summary, this is not about point-scoring. It is about making a club that is inclusive and wholly focussed on moving the membership forward, with enthusiasm. Those who are marginalised will move on/leave, but those who feel involved and listened-to will continue to pay their dues and support the club. Club days need to be 'jolly good fun' in a 21-st century fashion, not just a park-up-and-chat-with-the-old-crew affair. Where are the families bringing their children into the atmosphere of classic cars and period racing? Where are the 'use-your-car', not 'polish-your-car' events? Who does the club envisage it's leadership and owner group to be in 10/20/30/40 years time? Enthusiasts, or investors?
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hands down the most well balanced posting made thus far. Take that.
Unlike the one before that, but I thank SBB for doing so, as he so poignantly makes our point!! You could not have been clearer on what we perceive the real problem is with ACOC.
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
quote:
Originally posted by SBB
As is to be expected of the non-member cuckoos in the nest who will find any excuse not to cough up a few pounds for Membership,
I'm not a member.
I don't really want to add any more wood to the fire, but as no one else has picked up on this, I'd like to mention the enormous contribution Paul (Classicus) has made over the years. As noted in the quote, he is not a member.
Paul has been tracking down all the existing 428's, and started a register of these cars. He has devoted a great deal of time and energy to this task.
I would like to volunteer payment of one annual subscription for him. I'll do that, when I renew my own subscription on PAYPAL. Repeat: PAYPAL!
Paul describes himself as a pensioner on a limited income. He does not own an AC.
While it's possible that anyone so persistent in devoting such effort might be characterized as being a little Cuckoo, He's certainly a valuable old bird who deserves recognition. (A jest, Paul. I don't think you're Cuckoo)
For those of you who are unfamiliar with what he has done, please click on the link below. This would not have happened if the forum was not open to all interested parties.( I think it would be a good thing to incorporate Pauls registry into the Members area for future reference and updates)
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/f397875/register-amp-archive/?r=954298
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Perspective,
We are a car club, a club for enthusiasts of the AC marque.
19 club members sit on the council voluntarily and receive no expenses or perks for doing so. What we get is pleasure out of helping like minded owners to participate and interact with one another.
There are many more club members not on our council who contribute their free time equally if not more so with regards to organising events, running the registers or arranging for production / acquisition of spares etc.
Every organisation whether a club or a business requires an individual
or group of individuals to make decisions, in the case of our club this role falls to a number or ordinary car enthusiasts who have sufficient passion and belief in the club to make the Monthly journey to London at there own expense.
Finish.
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[first quote] Posted by SBB
Well said. Much of the feed into the Forum is puerile and banal. It is no wonder a huge nunber of Members never look at it.
... I am of the school of thought that the forum as it currently exists does the club no favours. The club cannot use the AC logo any more because Lubinski, who is not a member, did not like what he saw written aboput him and wanted censorship of free speech.
[second quote] Subsequently posted by SBB
This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell properly.
... As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
...However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
[/quote]
An interesting observation, SBB. You merely provide further evidence of the "do as I say, not as I do, I'm better than you..." approach that we're petitioning against.
As for your comments on Keith's 'calibre', you owe him a very large apology. He is one of the most passionate, credible and highly regarded enthusiasts in the club (and outside it) - you could learn a lot from him and the way he carries himself and the marque of the club.
Lastly, please clarify whether or not you actually support the existence of the forum, because for someone who's apparently against it, your continued posts are by far and away the most offensive and least useful ones that an outsider to the club/forum would see.
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Steady on Bruce - you keep on using fact based arguments (cf - your wonderful mathematical analysis of the PayPal issue) to support your views. This is not fair to those who can only use the verbosity that our wonderful English language encourages. Is it because you is South African?
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Earlier in the thread I thought it was stated the ACOC was looking for more members. From where I sit, a post such as this does nothing but drive people (new and old) away. It seems someone is shooting themselves in the foot and then reloading for more shots. I an guessing it is really not meant to be as mean spirited as it appears, but it is very difficult to understand the full intent when you cannot talk to a person face to face.
On a related note, could you please refrain from using the term "cuckoos" when referring to us non-members as it is an affront to birds everywhere. Since the goal seems to be to keep things as in the past, perhaps referring to us on this side of the pond as "Upstart Colonists" would be better. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by SBB
How appalling to see the comment on verbal diarrhea for agreeing with comments made by the Webmaster and adding some words of comment.
This plumbs the depths of idiocy, ignorance, execrable taste, apart from the accompanying demonstration of crass illiteracy in the inability to spell properly.
Such base insults have no place in a club of any standing and are utterly disgusting from the individual concerned.
As stated earlier, this sort of thing degrades the Club publicly and only serves to demonstrate that the Forum in its current form does the Club no favours.
To see an example of how a forum should be run and its rules and guidelines, refer to the Bristol Owners' Club website.
However it is probable that it is fortunate enough not to have members of the calibre of the sort of person who sink so low to write such revolting comments.
To anyone looking in from the outside this must appear absolutely disgraceful and must have put more nails in the coffin than can be imagined. The writer should be utterly ashamed of such comments.
As far as membership payments are concerned, I constructively suggest the Club's Council of Management does some research into how other clubs manage this situation and then in the light of those findings, decide what, if any, are the best changes to be made for the benefit of the ACOC and its future smooth running and success.
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quote:
Originally posted by C9OBY
... I can recall two events within the last 12 months where MKIV owners were specifically EXCLUDED from attending/participating at "AC-bannered" events - this sort of behaviour should NOT be tolerated, let alone supported by publication in the ACtion magazine.
...
Bruce, do mean somthing like this here: original Cobra meeting in Düsseldorf (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1837") [:(]
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I think he was probably refering to the "Events" calender on the homepage of this web site
1 - 3 July 2011
Snakebite - the Original Cobra Weekend
Dusseldorf. Thames Ditton Cobras only - email for full details: 289 at gmx dot net
The italics are mine but it does make me wonder about why I bought an "AC" product instead of a Hawk or Kirkham?
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Wow. Where to start?
Firstly, an apology? If my puerile & banal postings(yes, I admit it. bikinis, mickey-takes & general frivolity; guilty as charged!) have offended anyone or brought the club into disrepute, I`m sincerely sorry. [B)]
However, I don`t believe that`s the case. Having been on this forum since it`s inception, I can say hand-on-heart that there is a good balance of information & interchange of knowledge, along with being very civilised in it`s banter (other forums I know of have separate areas for more 'extreme' humour for example). What`s the expression? "All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy".[:)]
If quote "...A number of long-standing members will not touch the Forum with the proverbial bargepole, describing it as (quote) awful. Others have told me that they never look at it and never will, and imply they are proud to avoid it..." I presume they are relying on the opinion of someone else to base their opinion on...how very broad minded. [:(] Send 3 and fourpence... we`re going to a dance!
The internet, emailing, forums, technology in general are not to everyone`s taste, but just because a few may not appreciate something, is that good enough reason to deny it to all? [:0]
I`ve been around AC`s since I was born. I didn`t have a silver spoon in my mouth, it was a sparkplug. But I`ve never actually been a member of the club in my own right; my Dad was, through the 60`s & early 70`s during ownership of his Ace & Cobra, and is again now, now that he has a Greyhound.
Am I a cuckoo in the nest? "I`m not worthy, I`m not worthy?!"
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6038/5886171306_4a2a107ab4_m.jpg)
Getting back on topic, The issue of electronic payments was first raised in the second ever thread on the forum (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4") in April `06:quote:
Originally posted by ME182:...I have the following 'hopefully constructive' observations...
2. Items that can be ordered, such as membership or regalia should be via either e-commerce or paypal....Even if this has some associated cost, I'm sure these would be offset by reduced administration and additional memebers joining, as its easier to join!
quote:
Originally posted by bryanm(now posting as 'administrator'): Electronic ordering of items is likely to come, but not in the immediate future...The ACOC is not the most 'electronic' of clubs but we will get there!
...And also from `06, October (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=119") this time:
quote:
Originally posted by sruzila: Is there any way to get back copies of ACtion in electronic form? How about making it a PDF and emailing it out to people (especially those of us not in the UK)...
...I would definately like to see older issues available as PDF (or whatever easily readable format) online. Steve
quote:
Originally posted by administrator: It's been considered several times, but there are a (perhaps) surprising number of members without computer access, and email addresses change all the time. ACtion will remain paper.
The ACOC lags way behind many clubs in it`s presence at many major events, far beyond having not moved forward, they appear to have shrunk back in recent times. Wouldn`t it be great to have the club seen as a vibrant community of enthusiasts of some of the most advanced & exciting cars throughout automotive history?
So. Where do we go from here? [?]
Let`s see what the feedback from the Council meeting is.
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quote:
Originally posted by CRS9505: I think he was probably refering to the "Events" calender on the homepage of this web site
1 - 3 July 2011
Snakebite - the Original Cobra Weekend
Dusseldorf. Thames Ditton Cobras only - email for full details: 289 at gmx dot net
The italics are mine but it does make me wonder about why I bought an "AC" product instead of a Hawk or Kirkham?
Same thing as the original Cobra meeting in Düsseldorf (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1837").
I believe that this isn`t an ACOC event, only mentioned out of interest/courtesy.
25 original Cobras going out to play, Sounds like FUN!
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welcome back, Nik
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Gus, I saw the original request to advertise the Dusseldorf Cobra meeting. I have written before that I firmly believe the ACOC should be an inclusive (not exclusive) club, and give equality to all cars within the marque. HOWEVER.... this was NOT an ACOC event. It was a private invitation to the owners of specific AC cars. As such it fell into the same category as some the 3000ME events as far as the club was concerned. If owners of a particular model wish to organise their own event, it is up to them who they choose to invite. When it comes to official ACOC events like National Days, International Tours, Sprints, Concours, Dinners etc etc, then every member is welcome! I have asked for a late pass tonight as I expect a long Council Meeting up in a hot and humid London pub. I hope the beer chillers are working!
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Shep,
I did not post the thing on the "original" Cobra meeting in Dusseldorf. But I'd love to have a beer in a pub and be a fly on the wall at the counsil meeting!
I would also love for the club to be inclusive of AC cars that were built after Thames Ditton, Frimley, Malta etc etc. As my car is not acknowledged by the club. ACOC could take an example from SAAC on expanding the registry with categories that legitimize genuine cars, but not in the same category as cars built in period... Maybe another thing for the Counsil agenda.
Gus
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Sorry Gus, I should have addressed my post to Nik, but the sentiment applies to all. You will soon see some news following last night's Council meeting, but I will not steal anyone's thunder. You would have enjoyed the meeting which as predicted was a long one. I finally got home about 00.30 and made full use of my late pass! I have a really busy morning, but will check in later when I have 5 mins to spare.
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There was extended debate on these matters on Thursday and the first point is that the ACOC has often in the past asked for feedback. There can be no complaints that much has been submitted.
Our Hon Treasurer is not in a position to spend time investigating the mechanics of an electronic payment system but David Goose has kindly offered to do so, using the experience gained running his business.
There was unanimous agreement amongst those present that the Forum should stay in the public area. As has been pointed out here and previously, the website including the Forum is the public face of the ACOC and it is no place for personal comments or attacks. Deleting this thread and replacing it with a short summary was discussed but it will remain, as indeed some pungent letters to ACtion in past years remain for reference.
Let's get back to enjoying our cars!
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I like that!
Gus
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Wow, now there is a can of worms! How should we define an AC? If a car is manufactured by craftsmen employed by AC Cars, in a factory which exists specifically for that purpose, I would be inclined to agree. If however there is no AC Factory, and an AC badge is applied to the product of another company, I'm not so sure. Also if the AC badge is applied to a reproduction of a 1960s classic, it can never inherit the identity or value of the genuine article. Of course as a car enthusiast I would love to meet the owner of any such product and discuss its merits, but it will always remain a reproduction. I know that in order to pander to the climate change regulations, Aston Martin stick their badge on a Smart Car, but does that make it a real Aston? I don't think so.Unfortunately there are a lot of people who wish to kid you that they can change plain water into wine, and sell it at Grand Cru Classe prices.Caveat emptor! Money is hard enough to make these days and I would advise extreme caution when parting with lots of it. Of course fools and their money will always be vulnerable.
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And you wasted no time to pull some worms out of that can!![:)]
I'm one of those "owners of any such product" as you may know. I enjoy both what you call the "genuine article" in my Aceca, AEX 674, as well as the proverbial "replica" with a Kirkham 289 FIA and than something in between: RS 5038, which had it's chassis and aluminum skin made by the factory craftsmen in a genuine AC factory, however was completed by myself... Would the latter be a "badged" smart car? I don't think so. It's not a 1962 car, but it is an original. I don't think one should call it a reproduction. It was produced by AC for a genuine AC enterprise (AC Heritage, USA), that, as so many AC ventures lately, failed to succeed. How is the ACOC going to look at Steve Grey's enterprise with AC in it's Heritage program? I think it would behoove the ACOC to find ways to classify these cars, as years down the road the waters are going to be murky, and people don't recall what is "real" or original from the early years, and what is not. This is why SAAC now registers the Kirkhams, among others. It certainly registers the 4000, 7000 and 8000 series modern Cobras. And are those real, reproductions, replicas or what? They are not manufactured at Shelby American...
I think there is value, both for the ACOC as well as owners, to legitimize these cars with a registry position. I think the key is to be respectful and inclusive in this process. Anyone that genuinely understands AC, knows that the "originals" always will be worth more than "heritage" cars. I can tell you from my perspective that all three feel "real" to me, and I enjoy all three of them tremendously!
So what is so problematic about simply registering them? a register for the Heritage cars, the Iconic cars, the "German" cars and all cars Chafford mentioned in his posting.
History in the making is a malleable thing, what happens in it we don't personally control and, for a fact, many on this forum don't like it, but it all is part of the AC history nevertheless.
Is it the ACOC's role to write history the way it likes to see it? Or should it simply record the history, regardless of the feeling many have within the ACOC?
Gus
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For the record I believe the Aston Martin Cygnet is a rebadged Toyota rather than Smart car (Mercedes). Maybe we can rebadge a Fiat 500 and get a license to market it as a new, modern AC.
I tend to be a purist and while I really appreciate the reproductions, I don't see the linkage and wonder the consequences of puting AC badges on a home-built replica-car. In the end it gets very difficult to identify the real deal.
I do recognize the linkage of the AC Heritage/Steve Grey cars but not Hawks, Kirkhams, FormulaFive's etc. beyond that they look like an AC.
My neighbor has a MG lookalike with the engine in the rear and Volkswagen mufflers. I would never consider it eligible for registry as a MG TD.
Maybe a membership level for afficianado AC fans but leave the registry to Cobra lookalike groups.
Just an opinion, John
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So where would you put my 1936 16/80 Competition two seater ?
Robin
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Obviously Kirkhams are not original cars and are reproductions, rather exact since most parts fit the originals. There should be classification for such cars. Maybe in this case, reproduction should be the term. For cars made by AC later on and which are reproductions of original Thames Ditton classics, maybe continuation should be the term, these are obviously not original since they were recently built. However, They are genuine ACs' since they were built by a licensed company. Cars like the MKIV which are an evolution, should probably be referred to as originals since they are not a reproduction of the MKIII, there are so many differences compared to the original mainly due to changes in regulations in the US. If AC came up with a real new car, that would be an original as well. Replicas could be cars which are meant to look like cobra but have nothing mechanically in common with the original.
I worked for Cartier for 10 years and we were confronted with the same problem because at one point, Cartier Paris, London and New York were separate companies under different ownership and that for about 20 years until the seventies, some of the products that were made by these companies were really cheap. I can tell you that we were very careful to never do anything that would cheapen the brand. Aston Martin should use much care in selecting what product they sell under their name or they will disappear.
This is a difficult subject with many different points of view. I really think the club should be inclusive, at the same time it needs to come up with a system to classify all the cars.
Emmanuel
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Hi Gus, I agree with a lot of what you say. By the way, that is my personal opinion, as I can not represent the views of the ACOC and its Council without raising the issues at a monthly meeting. Some of the registers list cars under a separate section which have incomplete or debatable histories. It tends to apply more to the models which have the greatest financial gain from "originality". Those who know me, will realise that I enjoy driving AC cars and don't have much regard for all the politics. Race cars are constantly being developed, and therefore having matching serial numbers is unusual, or an indication the car wasn't that good and wasn't raced much! I will race any spec of car within reason, as long as it complies with the regulations. So originality is less important to me than its competitiveness. In my 428 Frua Register, there are a number of cars which were chopped and rebuilt as Cobras. It was a real shame, but if at the time, the 428 was only worth 20k and the owner couldn't afford 200k for a real Cobra, I can sort of understand the logic. The problem is that the original 428 could now be worth close to 100k, but the Cobra reproduction a lot less. It is neither a 428 nor a Cobra and only exists in a special section outside the main Register which I believe is how it should be. Otherwise some unsuspecting purchaser in the future could be conned out of a king's ransom, believing it to be an original 427 Cobra, and no one wants that.
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Has this become a club for Post War Cars only? it certainly looks that way!
I think you will find Mr Weller led the way very early on with his engine design & the subsiquent early achievements, most if not all the post war cars/engines were not designed by AC, however i am not sure about the ME Chassis!
Robin
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Robin, Emmanuel and Shep ,
I agree with you guys. John, I think you missed my point. I did not talk about MG's with VW engines, or Factory Five cars. Of course there can be no register through ACOC for Hawk cars and the likes, but there are true AC cars that are not registered. The Heritage cars fit that group. That in and of itself can be a category. And as far as "home builts"with a badge on them not being worthy, then I suppose one needs to remove a whole slough of cars from the registry. Such as Frua-to-Cobra rebuilds, crashed and burned Cobras that have one part in common with the original, but have been completely rebuilt etc, etc. And Shep made some good comments about "originality" as well with respect to race cars. I'm not familiar with Robin's plight, but if a car like that is not officially recognized by ACOC, that would be a huge omission.
I suppose I could write to the counsil with a proposal, but I think there would be a lot of value in having open discussion on the forum in order for ideas to float and matters to crystallize.
Or maybe, considering the previous posts in this particular thread, the counsil would never even consider doing such a thing as adding categories to the register.
Gus
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Don't know if this is any help but I've always understood it down the years as those cars that were built and driven out of the factory concerned, whatever their subsequent fate, and those that were finished off elsewhere. I think Gus has a point but so as to avoid confusion to buyers and being conned in the far future over originality, as Andy pointed out, could there not be a category for say "home built/finished" as well ?
Just my farthing's worth [;)]
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I think we should simply stay with the "Heritage" classification and specify which car has been finished by whom and where the Chassis/body were produced, to go back to the idea of "built buy AC craftsmen in an AC factory". There are a few cars out there, built by Steve Grey and now one by me, but I learned there are a number of chassis/bodies stacked up somewhere ready to be completed (where did these come from?).
There is also the RS car built by Rod Leach, based on a saloon, he is advertising now, so unless all these cars are sorted, at some point they will pass for the "real deal" as some Air car Cobras have.
Gus
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I think in the final analysis it's a question of putting oneself in the future buyer's shoes really....[:)]
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"And where has the 2 litre gone"
It was probably a rusted bucket! Again for this type of car I would prefer the term " reproduction" rather than "replica" which seems more exact and less dismissive. This is indeed a beautiful car! Replica to me is more for "the MG with a VW engine"
Emmanuel[:)]
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Actually,
This car should be in the Ac 2 litre registry, with a special note attached describing the reproduction, stating the only thing original about this car is the chassis plate. It is a very well done car, but for all intents and purposes, this car was not built by "AC craftsmen in an AC factory" and none of the chassis and body parts were produced by AC or retained from the 2 litre, making this a "replica".
Funny how many opinions there can be on the same topic...
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
Actually,
This car should be in the Ac 2 litre registry, with a special note attached describing the reproduction, stating the only thing original about this car is the chassis plate. It is a very well done car, but for all intents and purposes, this car was not built by "AC craftsmen in an AC factory" and none of the chassis and body parts were produced by AC or retained from the 2 litre, making this a "replica".
Funny how many opinions there can be on the same topic...
Gus
Agree. This is the exact reason the SAAC first started including the Mk IV in its registry, and why they have expanded it to include cobra replicas. Simply protecting the perceived purity of their anglo-american mongrel. [:D]
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That is the exact point why ACOC needs to move forward with this. Aside from the fact that an excellently kept up registry has at the least maintained values of all of the Shelby cars, but more than likely contributed significantly to their value, as prospective buyers had a much better record of the cars available to them when making a purchase. Which is what I propose would be the value to ACOC and all of the owners of "genuine" AC cars, whatever their provenance might be. The market will decide on value. The registry of heritage cars will in no way detract from cars built in the 50's and 60's and it will not add value to the Heritage cars. But it will be recorded what is what and having a complete registry will help values overall as there will be more confident buyers.
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
I think in the final analysis it's a question of putting oneself in the future buyer's shoes really....[:)]
Without a doubt, as long as the buyer knows what he is buying...
Gus
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I'm assuming the chassis plate was used simply to obtain a 1960's registration. I don't think Mr Leach is attempting to fool anybody. Building a car from scratch at this quality is an expensive undertaking. The price, I'm sure, will allow for some room for negotiation. As I've said before, it would be interesting to see what the car actually sells for. I'm also sure that Mr. Leach, with his long history in selling the marque, has a keen understanding of where to price the car in the market.
I see no real problem with what he has done (other than losing the 2 litre), as long as it's clearly advertised what it is and the buyer knows what he's getting into. People with money buy what they want, they don't necessarily look for authenticity and at this price it still is considerably less than a fully restored 1960's RS car. Someone will enjoy that car a lot.
Case in point:
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/galleries/custom-cars/427-billet-chassis/427-billet-chassis-book
Not a "real" Shelby, a lot more money...
This is in part also why Kirkham deserves his reputation for building quality cars.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
Actually,
This car should be in the Ac 2 litre registry, with a special note attached describing the reproduction, stating the only thing original about this car is the chassis plate. It is a very well done car, but for all intents and purposes, this car was not built by "AC craftsmen in an AC factory" and none of the chassis and body parts were produced by AC or retained from the 2 litre, making this a "replica".
Funny how many opinions there can be on the same topic...
Gus
My view is that this car shouldn't be described as an AC Ace by Mr Leach in his advertising. The car would have more credibility without the EL 1558 chassis plate, which isn't going to fool anyone who can afford the £145k asking price.
I can't help comparing the looks of this car with RS5038 being discussed elsewhere though - I'll have both!:
EL1558
(http://www.classicdriver.com/upload/cars/578/1814808/bigc.jpg)
RS5038
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p222/AEX674/IMG_4950.jpg)
I may be biased, but what a lovely car RS 5038 is!
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Gus I agree 100% about Kirkham building quality cars even if the billet stuff is not really my cup of tea. To each his own.
Yes documentation is the key, anyone pouring big money into a classic automobile with no documentation is asking for trouble. I agree, SAAC has been doing a good job in keeping their registry up to date and we should do the same.
I can see an urgent need with Fruas' in view of their price escalating and not much history documentation. This way it should be easier to differentiate the good from the basket cases when they get listed for sale.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Back to the original subject of this thread, when will the PayPal option for dues be up and running? No pressure intended. Just interested in paying my dues.
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Pay-pal is ready now but to get maximum benefit from this payment option we will be launching a new mini e-commerce website / payment portal.
Site is ready now and will allow you to purchase New Membership or Membership Renewal but I need to get sign off from the other council members prior to the site going live.
Would expect this to happen shortly after our next meeting (28th July)
If you wish to get things moving more quickly send me you e-mail address and I will raise a pay-pal invoice, I would however prefer to wait for the shop site to go live.
David
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David,
Thank you so much. Outstanding job. As soon as it goes live, I will submit my renewal payment. Fantastic job!
Gus
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Just as a matter of authenticity, will one of our experts confirm that the brass chassis plate shown on Rod Leach's two litre EL 1558 is real? It's slightly different than the brass plate on early Aces and Acecas, of which I've seen a number of close replicas. The later aluminum chassis plates were silk screened instead of being etched, and are far easier to counterfeit. One wonders if this new "Ace" also has serial numbers stamped on the other specific body locations.
So is this "Ace" any different than counterfeit handbags, cigarettes, Apple computers in China or Picasso's? There is the EEU directive setting forth destruction (crushing) of counterfeits. We've already seen the action of AC's intellectual property holder regarding use of his trademark by this club. Basic Economics 101: This counterfeit Ace, which by reason of being offered to a potential buyer of a genuine Ace as an alternative, causes a reduction in the value of the limited supply of real Ace 2.6s.
Art
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
quote:
Originally posted by AEX566
Just as a matter of authenticity, will one of our experts confirm that the brass chassis plate shown on Rod Leach's two litre EL 1558 is real? It's slightly different than the brass plate on early Aces and Acecas, of which I've seen a number of close replicas. The later aluminum chassis plates were silk screened instead of being etched, and are far easier to counterfeit. One wonders if this new "Ace" also has serial numbers stamped on the other specific body locations.
So is this "Ace" any different than counterfeit handbags, cigarettes, Apple computers in China or Picasso's? There is the EEU directive setting forth destruction (crushing) of counterfeits. We've already seen the action of AC's intellectual property holder regarding use of his trademark by this club. Basic Economics 101: This counterfeit Ace, which by reason of being offered to a potential buyer of a genuine Ace as an alternative, causes a reduction in the value of the limited supply of real Ace 2.6s.
Art
Although the advertisement headline is, in my opinion, misleading, the description of the car makes it quite clear that this is a replica, AC chassis plate or not. I suspect it could only be regarded as a counterfeit if it were being passed off as one of the original 37 cars with an RS/RSX chassis plate. And given the rarity of the original cars, I can't imagine that this car would have an adverse effect on the value of the originals.
I would agree with that statement. a 2.6 Ace would be bought by a connaisseur of the marque, someone that would do due diligence before buying. In no way will this car decrease the value of the period built cars. However, it does make a case for my call for the ACOC to add a new registry for Heritage cars. 30 years from now, who will remember which car was period or not, if we don't keep track of the cars that are heritage cars. This particular car should be in the 2 litre registry with a side note of what happened to it, or it should be removed from the registry alltogether, as the original car was destroyed. ACOC takes the position that if it did not drive out of the AC factory, it can not be in the registry. In that case, this car should be removed. I don't agree with that, as I think there should be a record of what happened to cars and which "new" AC cars are produced, whether under license or through the Heritage program.
Gus
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quote:
Originally posted by DGoose
Pay-pal is ready now but to get maximum benefit from this payment option we will be launching a new mini e-commerce website / payment portal.
Site is ready now and will allow you to purchase New Membership or Membership Renewal but I need to get sign off from the other council members prior to the site going live.
Would expect this to happen shortly after our next meeting (28th July)
David
Now that we have on-line electronic bill pay for club membership (thank you David!), is it possible to generate a confirmation e-mail containing a membership payment receipt, a note that the current issue of Action is on the way, and most importantly the password to the members section? Membership may have its privileges, but you need access to the inside cover of Action to get it. It would be nice if instant payment resulted in instant access. Just a thought…
On a related note, it would be interesting to hear if electronic bill pay resulted in a blip in new membership, or renewals for that matter.
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Art,
Membership renewal gratefully received and magazine etc on its way.
Unfortunately your order coincided with our membership secretary being on Holiday, Florida I believe so a bit of a drive but he could have saved the postage!!
You would have received emails and payment confirmation from me (acocsubs@aol.com) and yes I could include login details and password within those emails.
Feedback much appreciated, I will add additional info in the future.
To address your query regarding use of the electronic facility
I thinks its fair to say that business has been rather slow !
Not a busy time of year for renewals or new membership so I would expect a more significant uptake came March / April next year.
David