AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: tim isles on May 06, 2011, 15:25:32
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I met up with David Sanderson recently. He bought my silver (original colour) 1969 428 Fastback CF 19 from me in the late '70s. Its registration number is OOK 50 G. David ran it for some years, did his usual superb job of respraying it, this time metalic blue, and then it was sold to the US where it remains to this day.
I looked through some old photos of the car with him - these taken in the US and hence, I assume, why the knock on wheel spinners have been replaced with the 'safety' items. We were reminded that some Fastbacks had a small 'Frua' badge behind the petrol cap covers, rather than the usual small 'AC' item.
I don't think CF 19 was unique in this, but I don't recall many other cars being so fitted?
Tim
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/bex316/AC/1304686380.jpg)
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Hi Tim
Interesting this old thread about the small 'Frua' badge behind the petrol cap covers on your old car CF 19 which I'd missed previously until Siegfried mentioned it a couple of days ago as they're also fitted on his car CFX 13 as well. Do you know if any other cars had this badge too or would it more likely have been a customer option as I've never seen them before ? Then I can add the details to the Register hopefully with a close-up picture of one of them ?
Siegfried's also wondering if you still have any interior pics of CF 19 left ?
Thanks
Paul
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Just picked up on this and I fear I can't help much, for I don't recall if all of the early Fastback 428s had the 'Frua' rather than 'AC' badges on the rear pillar. No doubt a perusal of the register pictures would reveal a pattern?
Certainly the interior of CF 13 is interesting. My two former cars, CF 17 (a Convertible) and CF 19 had a similar looking 8 dial instrument binnacle, but that centre switch panel looks very home made. Both my cars had the same multi toggle switch layout. CF 19 had the early 'T' selector lever for the auto g/box. I think I do have some photos, but this layout was common to most of the early cars prior to the updated layout with rocker switches, smaller instrument binnacle and a 'U' shaped shift lever.
I've never seen that combined cigar lighter/ashtray, and neither is the s/wheel one I've seen before. Most interesting is the position of the gear lever. CF 17 had the standard manual heavy change RUG g/box, I think it was called. This necessitated the the lever being placed well back, and then cranked forward to make for a more comfortable position. Has CF 13 still got a 428 under the bonnet?
It's great that these cars continue to appear.
Tim
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Thanks Tim as there's very few clear pics as far as I can tell having been through all the entries on the Register, CFX 13 and CF 19 are the only ones up till now with this Frua badge fitted instead of the AC badge. Be interesting to know one day whether this was a factory option or even something that might have been fitted by Frua himself before the cars left Italy ?
If you could take a couple of close-up pics of your Frua badge for the Register sometime Siegfried that would be great ?
Thanks [:)]
Paul
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/cf42_silv_auctions_2011_11_d.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CFX13cFruabadgepetrolcap.jpg)
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Hi Paul
Maybe this picture ?
If you need more no problem just ask .
Siegfried
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0229.jpg)
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One more
Siegfried
http://s1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0285.jpg)
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Interesting, mostly original engine bay with the exception of the valve covers. Carburetor is the Autolite. Does she run?
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Thanks Siegfried excellent !
To put all this into perspective for long term analysis later on have you any idea when and where the car was last used on the road and the number of previous owners ? Did any pics or other information such as bills paid for work done come with the car too ?
This is because CFX 13 will be the first car we've ever discovered in such an original and unrestored state ! Consequently it would be enormously helpful and valuable, obviously when you get time (!), if you could take as many pics as possible of the car in its present unrestored condition so as to build up a full "Before and After" file of the car in the Register long before any restoration work is started. The interior, bodywork, inside the boot etc. and most of all underneath the car ideally using flash for all the dark areas and corners.
Although there's very few other before and after pics in the Register at the moment, to give you an idea have a look at CF 64 - starting from the bottom. However Emmanuel (CF 54) is in the final stages of his own major restoration and has already taken an enormous number of pics. so he might be able to suggest other ideas as well.
Thanks again !
Paul [:)]
Just remembered the car is now green have you done any other restoration work yet ?
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Hi Paul, I suspect in fact that Siegfried's car has had a fair amount of work done on it, but probably 20 or 30 years ago. The centre console and interior as per Emmanuel's and other member's comments look as if they have received a fair amount of modification, certainly the central switch panel is totally wrong even for an early car ( remember we previously owned CF14 which at the time was totally original barring one repaint and it was very different to this car inside ), and it's not clear from looking at the other photos but I also can't make out jacking holes visible on the sills ( rockers to American readers ) so these may well have been changed some years ago. I'm not convinced the colour is original as it does not compliment the odd colour of the doors and seats, but no doubt Siegfried will discover more as he progresses with the refurbishment.
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If the leather is the original colour, then is it more likely the car was originally white or gold? what do you think Paul and Emmanuel?
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Pity but thanks Brett. Any idea looking through the Register which fastback and convertible are the most original so that there's at least some yardsticks to go by in future ?
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Well Paul to be honest I reckon most of them have been restored or refurbished to a degree by now so I don't think there is any lack of information about what is correct and what is not. After all AC changed/developed/updated the cars continuously through the period of production so many of them have differences according to what parts were available. Hard to say therefore what is 'correct' as the original owner could easily have specified different items or colours that we do not know about..........
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Thank you Brett!
As an example: My car came to me with Koni shocks, not Armstrongs.
In order to mount the Koni's, there was some alteration done at the mounting points.
Was the alteration done at the factory, or afterwards? It's hard/impossible to know.
The shocks themselves were identical to those used on Cobras. Period-correct orange Koni's. So "original" that, when I replaced them, they went onto an "original" big-block Cobra being restored at Mike McCluskey's shop.
So why did I change them?
The springs and shocks were appropriate for the lighter Cobra roadster. They weren't properly rated for the weight of 428 to begin with.
But the koni shocks were period-correct items. It's just as hard (and illogical) to believe that they were retrofitted as it is to believe that the car was sold originally with the koni shocks installed.
Might AC have used koni shocks left over from Big-Block production? Might they have been specified in the original build? Maybe... who knows?
In the absence of records, careful "archaeological" examination tells the story.
I could go on, but I'll restrain myself.
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As a PS I looked closely at the photos of Siegfried's car and the paintwork is hazy and orange peely, and I can even see overspray on the chrome so definitely not original paintwork, but panel work looks straight and original except possibly the sills if they no longer have the jacking holes. Still it looks a great unrusted car to restore, great luck for Siegfried to be able to buy it........
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Sorry Brett, I don't know much about AC color/interior coordination, did AC have paint codes? What I can say is that cooling fans, steering wheel, switches and valve covers are after market. Possibly, the radiator expansion tank has been modified with a weird cap in front of the radiator cap, unless it's just sitting there.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Well Emmanuel I've never heard of any official paint codes for Frua's or if the factory had records of what colours cars were originally painted, somehow I doubt it ! I just felt CFX 13 could not possibly have been painted that colour originally with the current interior colour lol, but that might just be my own poor colour tastes! Or else some colour blindness on my part ! As I said overspray is clearly visible ( check the photo of the fuel filler cap above and look at the overspray on the chrome in front of it ) so the car has been repainted, so it might have been a different colour. I like the current colour and I'm not a stickler for originality like some people, but I do like to try and have exterior and interior colours complement each other..........
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Talking of factory colours reminded me of CF 63 and a little bit of its history as it was the factory demonstrator. Check the notes supplied by the Dutch owner himself in 2009 immediately above the pic taken outside Earls Court in 1973 where the colour is green as per the Wikimedia reference. Also the cover pic in "Country Life" taken at Bodiam Castle where the colour is gold.
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t16002574/cf-63/
Not much but it's all I can think of for the moment....
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We removed some paint and the initial colour is a kind off green
Till now we did end any work on the car
Siegfried
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0231-1.jpg)
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Hi Siegfried, great pic ! Bit confused about the colours as the car is obviously still blue, but in the pic of the frua badge it's green ? When you get time the more pics you can take of the car in its present state the better so as to be able to compare with the finished result. The same as the before and after pics of CF 64.
Thanks
Paul
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Hi Paul
Don’t be confused about the colour it is rely green .
But alls you now with fruit green can turn to ………..
Siegfried
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0321.jpg)
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0333.jpg)
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0317.jpg)
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You know, looking at the shifter, I don't see the T handle reverse lock typical of the Toploader gearbox. Maybe the gearbox is not original, the only Toploader shifter that does away with the T handle lock is the Hurst, but the handle does not look like a Hurst. Maybe the car was upgraded to a 5 speed, like a T5 which has been around since the 80s, that box is marginal with the big block torque and power.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Today, Emmanuel and I saw a steering wheel on an XKE (that appeared to be) identical to CFX13's.
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The AC factory photo below of, I believe, the first Fastback, shows an AC badge in a different position!
A similar but very grainy shot of the car under construction in Italy shows no badge at all.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/AC428FastbackACCarsPhoto3.jpg)
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Very interesting ! The car's CF 4, you can just make out the badge on the flap.
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t15999562/cf-04/
"Amongst the cars presented on the Swiss dealer Lukas Hüni's stand was this AC 428 which was the show car at the Salon de Geneve in 1966."
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF04enlarged.jpg)
Tempting to think too that Derek might have replaced a possible Frua badge in the same spot just as soon as the car arrived after having seen one of his chassis at Frua's studio !
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t19791635/the-history-of-the-ac-428-frua-website/
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/JockHendersonspicofnewchassispiledwithjunk.jpg)
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Is the 'pfrua' badge in the picture posted by Siegfried, copied below, a disguised ventilation air extractor?
(http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n501/sieg3/DSC_0229.jpg)
[/quote]
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The AC and/or Frua rear quarter badges were indeed I seem to remember used for ventilation rear extraction on the Fastbacks, obviously I presume that this wasn't developed at the time of the first production Fastback. I'm not sure which Ford manual gearbox was normally used on the manual Frua's but my old car CF42 certainly was an original manual car and had the original shifter fitted. Have another look at these photos in Paul's archive http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t16000925/cf-42/ ( I don't know if the link works from the forum but if not you can cut and paste it into your browser ). The shifter was cranked back and as you can see was located much further back than on CFX13 and also had no T-handle reverse lock-out. It was a 4-speed gearbox so was this also a Top-Loader gearbox Emmanuel or did Ford offer an alternative in 1969? It certainly suggests if the original archives are correct that CFX13 has been converted to a manual car. Looking at Siegfried's paint stripping photo I guess CFX13 has been painted at least 3 or 4 times allowing for the layers of primer. If the central section is the original colour it looks as if it may well have been a shade of Gold or Bronze which would link up nicely with the Brown colour of the seats and doors.........
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Hi Brett, I see no T-handle on you car either so it probably was a modified Hurst shifter or AC's own system. All these cars had Toploaders, it was at the time with the Muncie by GM the only in-line mechanical gearbox capable of taking this type of power and torque. All the "Nascar" boxes would not have been appropriate since they were straight gears only.
This is a good site from the Guru about these gearboxes:
http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/
Emmanuel[:)]
Emmanuel
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Originally posted by lyonheart84
If the leather is the original colour, then is it more likely the car was originally white or gold?
The Factory Ledger shows CFX 13 original colour to be Live Oak paint code P151-R837 and brown leather code D6324. The lack of automatic designation suggests a manual gearbox.
Live Oak was I believe a metallic gold colour
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Ah thanks Emmanuel for the info re gearboxes and also ACOC Archivist, the Live Oak looks like the original colour visible in Siegfried's paintwork photo under the other colours. It's useful to know that there are factory ledger paint records since nobody seemed to be aware of the original paint codes. If the car was originally manual it seems likely the factory changed gearlever location on later manual cars to improve the driveability.
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Tanks John & Brett for this very useful information
Interesting to look to the pietro frua site to http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac.htm_ CF6 and 17
I got this info from Damien
Siegfried
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http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac.htm
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Emmanuel if you look at the interior photo of CF6 it has the gearlever located further forward and to the left exactly as positioned on Siegfried's car ( albeit with the addition of the T-piece ) whereas CF17 has the same gearlever and location as my old car CF42. Obviously AC decided the position needed to be improved from the very early cars.
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Brett,
It's all a question of which tail shaft was available from Ford at the time the car was built. Cobras Mark 1, 2 and 3 used Galaxie an Fairlane tail shafts which position the shifter forward. The big block used the heavy spline tail shaft which mounted the shifter further front, hence the long curved handle. Eventually, Ford built cars that had shifters positioned to the end of the tail shaft so AC was able to move the shifter back. When I installed the top loader in my car, I used a 71 Torino tail shaft (you know like Starky and Hutch's car) which moved the shifter further back. I then switched to a Tremec 5 speed. The good thing about the Tremec TKO600 5 speed is the possibility of moving the shifter in different locations, without changing anything, I did not have to redrill the center console, bolted right in! By the way, Brett they make one with GM pattern, fits Corvettes perfectly! 5 speeds make the car more enjoyable on the freeway! Makes it up in petrol cost!
Of subject but FYI:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-general/2975192-its-like-a-whole-new-car-tko-600-a.html
Emmanuel[:)]