AC Owners Club Forum

AC Owners Club Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: Cobra Ned on October 01, 2020, 23:06:18

Title: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 01, 2020, 23:06:18
A friend has advised me of a '57 Bristol that has recently been discovered in storage following the death of a man who has owned it long enough that his wife was shocked to learn he owned it.The chassis is BEX 310. I am told it is essentially a chassis and body, but have no further details. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what to tell the widow as a rough value?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 02, 2020, 19:05:44
OK, well, with no responses yet I can pass along that some kind soul has told the widow he'd take it off her hands for $20,000. I'm thinking he's a bit light. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: bex316 on October 02, 2020, 22:29:46
As always, the more details are provided the more accurate an approximate value can be given.
Does this mean it is only chassis and body, no engine, gearbox, dashboard, instruments, seats, suspension, all the numerous  smaller items? If so, I feel it is still a bit low but the condition of the chassis and body are also to be taken into account.
The car has racing history driven by Lucky Casner of Chicago in SCCA 1958 according to the Ace-Bristol register.
No other owners are stated. It was originally Off White with black interior and left the factory on 28 May 1957.
This car is 6 digits lower than the chassis number of my car and the original (missing?) engine number is 5 digits lower.

Probably Tim Isles, Keith Lessiter or others with more insight can chime in?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 03, 2020, 00:46:47
OK, well, with no responses yet I can pass along that some kind soul has told the widow he'd take it off her hands for $20,000. I'm thinking he's a bit light. Any thoughts?
It’s not ‘Richard Rawlings’ light, but if there is little more to it than you mention, it’s going to be a 6-figure restoration, done right.
The Lloyd Casner connection certainly should add value, I know Keith & Tim may have some historic info.
Maybe B.A.T would find its true value?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 03, 2020, 15:18:17
I will try to get a lot more information on this one.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: AC Ace Bristol on October 03, 2020, 16:56:19
.
Cobra Ned

Re:BEX310  Drag Raced Ace Bristol
This Ace Bristol appeared on the radar early October 2019,  The pictures published ( No date  was given as to when photos were taken)  showed the Ace Brsitol BEX310 engineless, engine mounts confirm it had once been fitted with a V8,  Hence modified foot boxes and engine mounts, rack and pinion steering and a solid back axle. with over size rear wheels,  plus a built in roll cage to comply with safety whilst  being drag raced back in the 1970s. (old sports cars had little to no real value back in the 1970s)
Door hinges confirm chassis number BEX310........ Carefully inspect before buying or setting a value.  BIG Question....  Does the this Ace have Title and Continuous History????   if not, it will not be recognised as a AC Ace Bristol , No continuous history  and No title ....  Valuation  ??.....  would be as basis for a KIT CAR. Lot less than 20K US dollars......              Would make a A great potential project..... :)

Hopefully Proof of Title and Continuous History and You or someone can invest 200K+ US Dollars or so and return it to correct 1957 Ace Bristol Specification. One needs to see the car in the flesh and work your valuation back from concours value less all the parts  and labour.
Early  (1958) SCCA Race History by Lucky Casner who went on to race Ferraris, before I believe loosing his life at  Le Mans.  Would  possibly add a little  additional value to this Ace , Again assuming one has proof of continuous History and Title.   

Keith


Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 04, 2020, 18:48:53
Thanks, Keith. I'm getting photos and more data from friends who know the widow. Will be back once I get them.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: AC Ace Bristol on October 05, 2020, 10:13:37
.Ned
Hopefully Title  and some History is confirmed, please confirm your email address  and I will forward a few pictures,  all data on BEX310 will be shared with Tim Isles the official ACOC Ace Bristol Registrar.
Great when  a long lost Ace comes up on  Radar........... BEX310 has had a hard and eventful life, Not the cheapest or easiest project, but has great potential.

Keith
keith.lessiter@gmail.com
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 06, 2020, 17:07:42
Got a few photos of BEX 310. It requires some work. But the AC bones are there. Still waiting for further news on paperwork.

Ned Scudder
nedscudder@gmail.com
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 06, 2020, 17:11:58
The wheelie bars are a nice touch...
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 06, 2020, 17:12:58
And an interior shot...
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: AC Ace Bristol on October 06, 2020, 18:16:41
Cobra Ned

Thank you for posting the pics of BEX310,  Definitely the same Ace Bristol  Drag Car as we have on the Ace Bristol Register, Earliest picture we have is when BEX310 was competing back in the 1970s ?
The ACOC would appreciate copy of paper work or at least confirmation that BEX310 has Title and earlier History.
Thank you Ned for following up.  Appreciated.
Please confirm email address and I will forward additional pictures.

Keith  and Tim Isles  (ACOC Ace Bristol Registrar ) ,  :)
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 08, 2020, 00:28:34
Door hinges confirm chassis number BEX310.. BIG Question...Does the this Ace have TITLE and Continuous History????   if not, it will not be recognised as a AC Ace Bristol , NO  CONTINUOUS HISTORY & NO TITLE... would be as basis for a KIT CAR.
Hopefully Proof of Title and Continuous History and You...can...return it to correct 1957 Ace Bristol Specification.
Keith
Hi Keith.
Kit Car? ? ! !  >:(
Am I missing something here?
If you have a complete car, with it’s BEX 310 chassis stampings in the correct places, why would it not be recognised as an AC Ace Bristol? And who would not recognise it? The ACOC? The DVLA?

Is there some confusion between VIN & Title?
When you say:
The ACOC would appreciate copy of paper work or at least confirmation that BEX310 has Title and earlier History.
It seems unlikely if the wife didn’t even know of the car that ‘Title’ has been found or maintained, but the VIN is there on the car, where it has been since it was laid down at Thames Ditton in 1957.

So Basically, any barn-find AC that doesn’t have a history from Thames Ditton ‘til today, will not be recognised? That CANNOT be right!

Isn’t ‘Title’ the American equivalent of our V5 registration(log book)(I understand there are differences, but in principle)?

What am I missing here?

Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: rstainer on October 09, 2020, 18:44:06
Nik,

Am I missing something here? Yes. What am I missing here? ACOC register principles previously set out in ACtion.

The Club’s Continuous History, Continuity of Title and Replica principles are:
The Thames Ditton Cobra Register’s replicas appendices list some 85 cars that the ACOC does not recognised as AC Cobras. Nearly all have CSX/COB/COX car number stampings in the correct places, but the reasons these are not recognised as period Cobras are clearly set out for each car.

VIN and Title are two different things. VIN may well not be unique (see the Club’s registers at www.acownersclub.co.uk) and does not imply ownership (see www.gov.uk). Title concerns the ownership of an asset.

Any barn-find AC will be recognised as an AC provided it has been kept together as a vehicle since original completion; if, however, the find is parts discarded when the vehicle was rebuilt, the vehicle title and continuous history remain with the working vehicle. Anyone buying, for example, discarded components gets title to those components, but does not get title to the vehicle from which they were discarded.

Please ping me an email if you need any further info.

Robin
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Big col on October 09, 2020, 23:09:08
It makes this months ACtion reading even more interesting. Like Triggers broom, three new handles and two new heads.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 10, 2020, 01:31:37
Thanks for the clarification, Robin.
So would you class the above BEX 310 as the surviving, original 1957-built Ace?
Is not the fact that it exists complete a physical manifestation of ‘continuous history’?
Although clearly modified for drag racing, there is no suggestion that it has been ‘built from AC-sourced parts’ or ‘rebuilt’, nor that it is a collection of discarded parts,  so it clearly isn’t a ‘replica’; surely ‘continuous’ title is very hard to establish for many (if not all) ‘lost & found’ cars, so couldn’t be taken as the be all and end all of accepting an original car as such?
Of course, a V.I.N should beunique to the chassis or monocoque it was issued to, so cannot be transferred to another vehicle (eg a MkI Escort rally car crashes, get’s reshelled, so a new V.I.N is legally required, but the old one is cut out & welded into the new...naughty naughty!) But continuity of title would not necessarily show such an act had occurred...
The Replica Cobra register makes it quite clear the (approximate)date of manufacture, by whom manufactured (where known), and identifies ‘cloned’ or ‘not AC(Cobra) chassis numbers‘ as applicable.

So from you statement: “Any barn-find AC will be recognised as an AC providing it has been kept together since original completion” I see no reason that you would not accept BEX 310.
Fair comment?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: administrator on October 10, 2020, 11:48:06
My understanding is that fitting a new manufacturer specification chassis or shell to a vehicle does not involve changing the VIN.  The guidelines for a UK historic vehicle are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

See the paragraphs under 'The criteria for substantial change'.

As an aside, I've been told that about 15% of the HMS Victory we see today in Portsmouth was at Trafalgar.  The rest has been renewed over the years.  I didn't ask whether 15% was by weight or volume.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 10, 2020, 14:06:17
My understanding is that fitting a new manufacturer specification chassis or shell to a vehicle does not involve changing the VIN.  The guidelines for a UK historic vehicle are here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdf

See the paragraphs under 'The criteria for substantial change'....

Very useful guidance, which shows that using O.E-spec replacement chassis/body or monocoque does not mean the vehicle would have to be reclassified as ‘substantially changed’ (but if you cut out the firewall of a Ford Anglia to fit a Chevy V8, it would!) but no mention of V.I.N.
I was referencing Andy Shepherd’s clarification of the Register principles HERE (https://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2180.msg2180#msg2180):
As promised I have investigated and can now reply to previous posts concerning the Club's registers...
Michael Grenfell has now reviewed all relevant Club documents and forum posts and concludes that:
   
   “It is my opinion that the Register’s operation:
   
   1.   Is in accordance with UK law
   2.   Is what I would expect to see from a leading register
   3.   Is in accordance with DVLA INF 26 guidance.”

...Points outstanding when we commissioned the review were:
   
   Gus(vehicle identity transfer)
   You are correct; a vehicle identity (VIN or chassis number) cannot be transferred from one vehicle to another in most European (including UK) law....

...Facts about particular cars sent direct to our registrars are always welcome, and the Council will always address considered register policy and operational recommendations.
   
   Andy Shepherd
So yes, a replacement chassis or monocoque should have a new V.I.N. 👍🏻
Quote
You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:

colour
engine
cylinder capacity (cc)
fuel type
chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)

DVLA Guidance (https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate)
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: rstainer on October 10, 2020, 14:36:40
Nik,

The questions I answered are:
Any questions regarding individual ACs should be directed to the relevant registrar.

Questions regarding registrar principles, which accord with leading international practice, should be directed to Council.

RS
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 10, 2020, 15:58:21
Thank you Robin


I look forward to following the progress of BEX 310, and hopefully it’s restoration back to original Bristol-spec. 👍🏻
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 11, 2020, 02:38:19
As it happens, BEX 310 was last sold in 1973, but absent a title as it was a race car and not intended for use as a street car. So it traded hands on a bill of sale and the VIN was not mentioned. I would think the fact that it has been in the same ownership for 47 years should count for something, however. I'll see if I can get photos of any numbers on hinges, latches, or elsewhere.

Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 11, 2020, 09:05:08
Thanks very much for this really helpful and constructive reply, Ned, as it perfectly illustrates my point.

Here we have 47 years’ worth of continuous history, absent of title.
Would this be ‘good enough’ for you, in the SAAC, if it were a ‘CSX’ rather than ‘BEX’?
I can’t see any reason not to accept BEX310 as what it is.

Many thanks, Ned.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: administrator on October 11, 2020, 10:10:43
Replacing the chassis or monocoque does not involve transferring the VIN from one vehicle to another.  It is the repair of the existing vehicle. 
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: rstainer on October 11, 2020, 10:13:13
Ned,

If a car has been in the same ownership for many years and was bought on a bill of sale, there's 'no reasonable doubt as to continuous history'.

'Title', in its general international use, refers to the legal basis for the ownership of any personal property, such as houses, furniture, pictures, land, vehicles, agricultural machinery etc. Road registration in many countries is not demonstration of ownership; in the UK, for example, the V5C makes this very point: it records the car's 'keeper', not owner, and is not demonstration of title. Tens of thousands of leased cars are owned by their lessors, but their named V5C keepers are their lessees, not owners.

As you know, the SAAC and the ACOC are as one on all our definitions.

All the best

Robin
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 11, 2020, 14:24:01
Nik and Robin, thanks for the feedback and thoughtful comments. And yes, if this were a CSX car with the same credentials, we would consider it the genuine car as long as there were no other competing claims to ownership. Regrettably, what we have found with the CSX cars is that a Registry provides those bent on skullduggery a good list of cars with no recent history, and sure enough, those are the ones which miraculously crop up in out-of-the-way places. They are usually easily identified as frauds.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 11, 2020, 23:20:47
Replacing the chassis or monocoque does not involve transferring the VIN from one vehicle to another.  It is the repair of the existing vehicle.
But of course, discarded chassis or monocoque must be verified as destroyed, or you have just created a ‘ringer’! 😉😆
(Imagining our Mk1 Escort rally car again...you crash it, buy a new shell, and all the bits to complete, and put your ‘original’ vin on it...”Yeah, it’s been repaired”...but then you get greedy, sell the complete crashed car, lo and behold, the shell wasn’t that bad after all... 2 cars, 1 vin...
Oh dear....)
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: rstainer on October 12, 2020, 12:48:53
Nik,

“... must be verified as destroyed...”     UNTRUE FOR MOST JURISDICTIONS

The purpose of a register is to record the known facts of a vehicle in accordance with documented publicly-available register policy and practice. A registrar cannot make judgements on an act’s lawfulness in its jurisdiction (California? Federal law?), but can report published Court findings.

Forum activity is to be applauded but postings must be relevant to the string, in this case the Value of a found AC Bristol BEX 310. If you have any other BEX 310 or register questions kindly start another string.

RS
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: GSouthee on October 12, 2020, 17:23:49
Surely at the end of the day, the car is worth what ever someone wants to pay. Remember a car should be driven whether on the road or track/strip. They should not be toys for those looking to invest in the future perceived value.

G
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 13, 2020, 15:38:32
Amen, brother!!! 🙏🏻
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: James Eastwood on October 13, 2020, 17:38:32
Back to the subject of value, $20k feels very light as you put it, given the race history. Having said that the parts bill is going to add up very fast.

I'd be interested to know how the solid rear has been grafted on. The AC dif housing must have been cut out, I would imagine the current axle is welded in (which was typical for 60/70's 'Altered' era dragsters), rather than sprung , so one hopes not too much of the rear AC chassis has been cut out.

Here's a further idea though, you could make a very interesting NHRA classic street class dragster from all the left over period 1/4-mile parts and a Hawk fibre glass shell. Particularly if the drag racing history is documented. Then also build the Bristol Ace.

...I shall never be forgiven for mentioning drag racing on the AC forum!

Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 13, 2020, 18:19:42
Back to the subject of value, $20k feels very light as you put it, given the race history. Having said that the parts bill is going to add up very fast...
Here's a further idea though, you could make a very interesting NHRA classic street class dragster...Particularly if the drag racing history is documented.
...I shall never be forgiven for mentioning drag racing on the AC forum!
I think there would be a good case for restoring to it’s Drag Race configuration, if that is where the most historically significant part of BEX310’s past lies, but I suspect although the restoration cost would be significantly higher, the Lucky Casner connection may be of greater ‘interest’.
Either way, I look forward to BEX 310’s life & history continuing. 👍🏻
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 16, 2020, 19:04:54
Numbers have been found on the latches, but I'm not sure where to look for the chassis VIN. Any help would be welcome.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: bex316 on October 16, 2020, 22:48:52
R/H engine mount usually shows the VIN.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: AC Ace Bristol on October 17, 2020, 09:43:52
. Jerry & Ned

This Ace Bristol BEX310 has lost its Bristol engine and replaced with V8,  Engine mounts  usually removed and rebuilt to accommodate the V8
Vin Number BEX310 should be punched on door hinges, boot (Trunk) and Bonnet hinges,  Often  hand written on reverse side of Dashboard  and sometimes underside of Aluminium seat base.   ;)

Keith
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Cobra Ned on October 20, 2020, 02:02:47
There is no doubt that we have located BEX 310, and numbers have been found on the doors and trunk/hood hinge areas. But as expected, it would appear that the R.H. engine mount is missing. I have photos, but they are coming in with too large a format to post. Now what?
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: dkp_cobra on October 20, 2020, 07:35:31
There is no doubt that we have located BEX 310, and numbers have been found on the doors and trunk/hood hinge areas. But as expected, it would appear that the R.H. engine mount is missing. I have photos, but they are coming in with too large a format to post. Now what?
The program "tinypic" resizes pictures.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: nikbj68 on October 20, 2020, 23:44:07
There is no doubt that we have located BEX 310, and numbers have been found on the doors and trunk/hood hinge areas. But as expected, it would appear that the R.H. engine mount is missing. I have photos, but they are coming in with too large a format to post. Now what?
You could ‘screenshot’ them and crop smaller. 👍🏻
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: SunDude on October 21, 2020, 13:35:27
There is no doubt that we have located BEX 310, and numbers have been found on the doors and trunk/hood hinge areas. But as expected, it would appear that the R.H. engine mount is missing. I have photos, but they are coming in with too large a format to post. Now what?

Ned, upload the image files to your Flickr account. Flickr allows you to share/hyperlink the photos at different resolutions/sizes.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: dsjw1 on November 06, 2020, 13:46:59
Why do you say that Dave?

Trigger
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: AC Ace Bristol on November 09, 2020, 11:58:56
There is no doubt that we have located BEX 310, and numbers have been found on the doors and trunk/hood hinge areas. But as expected, it would appear that the R.H. engine mount is missing. I have photos, but they are coming in with too large a format to post. Now what?


Ned
Can you please post update on this thread  .............  Is BEX310 still up for sale? been Sold ?  being advertised or up for Auction. ?
Thanking you in anticipation.
One or two parties have shown interest in saving BEX310 and converting back to Original Thames Ditton Specification.   :)
Cheers for Now

Keith
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Rolands on December 23, 2020, 16:26:41
We still have the AC  it is still in storage in Virginia.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: Rolands on January 21, 2021, 22:30:19
The AC is for sale, If anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Value of found AC Bristol
Post by: pjbowman on January 24, 2021, 03:39:13
Rolands, where in Virginia is the car located? I am in Virginia also.