AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Emmanueld on January 14, 2007, 15:25:01
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I am in the process of converting my Frua to a manual box! I am doing it because I think it will make the car more enjoyable for me to drive. I already purchased a proper Ford Top-Loader box. I have 3 questions for you guys:
What is the proper shift mechanism mounted originally on the Frua? I have seen photos of cars with the short forward shifter like the Cobra MKII and I have seen photos where the shifter was the long Cobra 427 type. I can install either since all is needed is a different tail-shaft and I have not bought a shifter yet!
What is the proper tail-shaft for the Top Loader?
Also would it be sacrilegious to mount a modern Tremec 5 speed TKO600? Would it hurt resale?
Any feedback appreciated!
Emmanuel [?]
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Can anyone post interior photos of manual transmission Fruas'?
Emmanuel
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With the torque range from your engine, 4 gears & the right rear ratio would be good, but why consider a 5-speed if you fear it would affect value?
If you were to sell, I would have thought a change to either from the original auto would be detrimental to value.
Nik.
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If you really must go for a manual (I would not bother) then the fewer gears the better. The first of the Shelby Daytona Coupes (OK, from Superformance!) had a 6-speed box which was definately two cogs too many. They now fit 5-speed - but with that much torque, three of those are pretty redundant.
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Trevor, Andy, I have still not decided whether I want to go with the Top-loader which I have already sent to David Kee or just install a Modern TKO 600! What do you think?
With the Top-loader, final ratio should be 3.08, with the Tremec (.82 Fifth) the ideal final ratio should be 3.31.
An overdrive gear would make the car more enjoyable on the freeway! The TKO's first four gears are very close to the Top-Loader. I have spoken to various experts who don't think this would affect resale, the car being so rare. Any input welcomed!
Emmanuel
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I doubt that it would affect value as the car was available with either transmission. If all else fails I'll give you $1000 and take it off your hands. I'm generous like that.
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OK, I have selected to stay with the Toploader. It's a better shifting box than the TKO and it's original. The tail shaft selected is the 17" Torino (31 spline) with a modified Hurst short shifter which will look like the MKII Cobra when installed. The advantage to this setup is that the box is the same dimension as the C6 and should bolt right in without any modification to either chassis or driveshaft, we will see. David Kee suggested that I use the wide ratio setup since I am planning to use a long rear end, 288 or 308. Originally, Toploaders were only setup as close ratio with a big block motor 1 3/8 input shaft, but Kee can set up both. 1st will be 2.70 instead of 2.12. We will see when I get the box back! It seems that the chassis is already set up for the Toploader, the rear chassis mount has 2 sets of holes, nice touch. The bell housing we found is from a Ford Galaxy 427. I am excited about it.
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Can anyone post interior photos of manual transmission Fruas'?
Emmanuel
I only find this link but you need good glasses to see any details [:(]:
http://www.motorlegend.com/coupe/ac-428-frua/6,12586.html
Have a look page 2/2
(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4770/accoupefruatr8.jpg)
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Nanard289, Thanks for the photo, I already saw that picture, this car is supposed to be the prototype coupe and the setup is pure cobra MKIII with the 14" Mustang/Cougar (28 Spline) Tail shaft which places the shifter completely at the back of the trans., which explains the long forward lever (shortened to clear the dashboard I think). The MKII used the Galaxy tail shaft with the shifter assembly way forward, this was the gearbox I bought and with this setup, the shifter would come out under the radio! A small problem! I have seen later cars (supposedly factory built) with the short vertical MKII like shifter. I think the only tail shaft that will work, is the Torino unit available late 60's and early 70's. It should place the shifter about right, it's probably the one AC used for the later cars. I think this setup is better looking. VOILA!
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/ac-frua-bm.jpg)
Emmanuel
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"GalaxIE" in Ford speak, Not "GALAXY." "Galaxie 500", et. al. Worrying about resale on a car that had less than 100 built is silly unless you are a "flipper."
I thought the C6 in the coupe I had for a while was way cool with the "U" shifter....not a lot of those out there.
Rick
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Actually, you are right Galaxy refers to a modern Ford Minivan and Galaxie is the 60's car. English or French spelling who cares. You are also probably right that the resale value would not be affected much. However, I still think the car should remain as original as possible. As far as the auto shifter, it is a 68 Galaxie unit, UGLY as sin to me! and it gets burning hot in the summer. I think a nice GT like this should be manual!
Emmanuel
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For info: Frua Auto Shifter: 68 galaxie shifter on Ebay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/68-71-Ford-Galaxie-XL-console-shift-handle-assy_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ140719QQitemZ120097556896QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
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Another Shifter:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-Ford-Galaxie-500-FastBack-CONSOLE-SHIFTER_W0QQitemZ200086660221QQcategoryZ140719QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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WOW! you get the whole console & linkage for $200 from one guy, or just the handle for $400!!!
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I have a feeling he may have a hard time selling the shifter! Anyway, the point is: a replacement shifter for the Frua can be found relatively easily! Emmanuel
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Here is the box with the shifter ready to be installed! Unless I have made a mistake, the shifter will come out like the roadster above! It should be easy to use another shifter bent backward if needed!
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1522.jpg)
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Here is the box with the shifter ready to be installed! Unless I have made a mistake, the shifter will come out like the roadster above! It should be easy to use another shifter bent backward if needed!
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1522.jpg)
Emmanuel
Fantastic restoration project Emmanuel! Your new Top-loader gear box looks very nice (and very strong), it is a good choice to associate with a big block. I am impressed by the tail housing size. You will have probably to reduce your shaft line length. Shifter arm is not a big deal, you can easily adapt it or change it as you want. About the pilot bearing that is located in the crank shaft, don't hesitate to replace it to avoid my mistake [;)]
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3560/pilotbearingrf6.jpg)
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Hi Nanard, thanks, this is a 17" tail housing from a late 60's early 70's Torino with a 31 spline output shaft. With this setup, the transmission is exactly the same dimension as the big C6 automatic box that was on the car before, no modification to the driveshaft should be required. Don't worry, I will install a new pilot bearing, flywheel and a new clutch, probably McLeod. Nanard, the trans that is on the picture you posted, what is it? it does not look like a Toploader! [:)]
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
... With this setup, the transmission is exactly the same dimension as the big C6 automatic box that was on the car before, no modification to the driveshaft should be required. ...
Emmanuel
Again I suppose that you have a lot of investigations to select the right tail housing that will fit exactely to your driveshaft! For my replica I had have a good opportunity to buy a super T-10 (4 ratios) made by Tex Racing. It is also a good transmission for a small block. As you can see, the front bearing retainer is modified to install an hydraulic through out bearing to drive the clutch [;)]
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Hi Nanard, This box is a bit special, I have requested that it be set up with wider ratios than usual. (The big block Toploader, 1 3/8 input shaft and 31 spline tail shaft was only available with a short ratio. David Kee and a few other have a 1 3/8 input shaft for the wide ratio first gear. This should give me a much more enjoyable car to drive on the road with a very high top speed!). Because I grew up in France, I like cars with long legs. For the time being, I will try the car with it's current 2.88 rear end, If it's really too long, I will go down to 3.08 which was the ratio for the manual AC Frua. Most big block US cars are running 3.54 at the minimum, some all the way to above 4.00, this is crazy, top speed is 90 miles an hour! I am dying to try it out! [:p]
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
...Because I grew up in France, I like cars with long legs...
Hi Emmanuel, 2.88 rear end ratio is not long legs, it's stilts [:D]
As you know, French car taxes was calculated according to the engine displacement and .... rear end ratio! It is the reason why a lot of French car was equiped with a small engine and a long rear end ratio [:(] (to minimise the taxes), why the last ratio was called "overdrive" and why the top speed was not obtained on overdrive selection. It is obvious that if you like to cruise your car at low rpm (and low fuel consumption) this ratio is a good choice. However, if your Top-loader first ratio is lower than 2.8/1 it could be little hard to your clutch to drive in the city. As usually, the good choice is a compromise [;)]
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You will find below a ratio comparison between various gearboxes:
C6 Auto: 1:2.46 2:1.46 3:1.00
Toploader close: 1:2.32 2:1.69 3:1.29 4:1.00
Toploader Wide: 1:2.78 2:1.92 3:1.36 4:1.00
TKO600 (Sport) 1:2.87 2:1.89 3:1.28 4:1.00 5:0.82
As you can see the wide ratio Toploader is not all that wide!
The AC428 manual list the automatic cars as using 2.88 rear and the manual as using 3.08 rear. I will try the 2.88 and switch to 3.08 if too long but remember the big block is so powerful and has so much torque! [8D]
Emmanuel
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I am happy to report that the transmission is in the car and that the engine is now running! The new clutch pedal is in but we have a problem with the clutch not releasing fully. We are going to install a larger bore Girling Master cylinder. Hopefully, it will solve this problem. The trans. bolted right in, as David Kee said, no modification to the driveshaft was needed and the shifter is about in the right place. I bought an original 428 Cobrajet bellhousing on E-Bay, it fits perfectly. Slight modification to the transmission mount was needed. The flywheel, clutch, fork and throwout bearing also new. Photos to follow!
PS: the C6 is for sale on E-bay!
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I am picking up my car first thing this morning and driving to the office, it's a 30 miles drive. We will see how it feels, first drive with a clutch, it's going to be different I am sure. It looks a bit in a sad state with primer all over and no bumpers, but I will paint it only after I am sure it is running a 100%
Emmanuel
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Yesterday, I picked up the car, and besides getting stuck twice with clogged fuel filters, the car performed great! I am going to pull the gas tank out and have it cleaned and sealed, I should have done it when it was out of the car 10 weeks! Oh well.
Besides that, the car has taken a completely different personality, the 2.88 rear end is about right, acceleration is fantastic and the shifter looks great, It feels like a sports car! THE HEAT PROBLEM INSIDE THE CABIN IS GONE!!!, The car is cool inside and the air coming out of the vents is cool.
Also, the spoiler seems to work, on the higway, engine temperature is down to about 70 degrees/C. I am happy.
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1657.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1656.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1655.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1654.jpg)
I now have to duplicate the pedal rubber, cut the center console, get Wilton carpet to match the existing one. [:D]
Emmanuel
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Hello Emmanuel, Do you think the loss of cabin heat is down to the manual conversion, or your chin spoiler improving air flow under the car and away from the engine bay? Regards, Andy.
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Hi Andy,
The truth is that it could be a number of things or all compounded together, if you look at the thread "AC Frua repaired floors, sills and inner wings" we used massive amount of "Dynomat" insulation over the floors under the carpets. Also, ceramic aircraft insulation was sandwiched between the floors and the new aluminum panels we made. The firewall was insulated as well. All the cold air ducking inside the fenders was heavily insulated too. My car being a later model has all the cold air ducking running inside the fenders instead of under the hood, it makes it easier to insulate. A new aluminum cowling was installed under the radiator modeled after the one in Jeffrey’s car, mine was missing. Also the manual transmission runs a lot cooler than the automatic and the gap between the transmission and the tunnel is also wider. Without doing the modifications in steps one at the time and trying the car each time, it’s difficult to assess what made the most “Bang for the Buck”! The Spoiler is definitely responsible for lowering engine temperature and probably under hood temperature as well. Also the whole new 2 ½” exhaust system was ceramic coated. The car has taken a whole new personality, with my previous suspension modifications, it feels light and fast like a Cobra, yet it is quiet and cool inside and with proper weather protection. Despite the 2.88 rear end, it still feels short geared; you are going 100 MPH in no time. It’s a lot of fun.
Regards,
Emmanuel
PS, I just bought an original 68 427 side oiler block, It will be built as a 460 cube, with a not too crazy hydraulic cam, It will completely look stock on the outside. I think I might have to install Halibrands with that type of muscle.
I had a 3/4" front anti-sway bar installed, the complete hardware came from Kirkham, brackets and all, What an improvement, it now drives like a modern car! turns flat and is much more stable in a straight line as well. I have been driving around with an outboard motor gas tank, so this weekend the tank goes back in! Emmanuel
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Hi everybody, I was wondering where I could find the new rubber for my pedals, There is a place which can make it over here but it would be custom and very expensive. Looking at an MGB pedal (Almost the same but not quite) the other day made me think the rubber is probably sourced from a mass produced auto, any opinion? I can post a photo if needed!
Emmanuel