AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Classicus on October 17, 2007, 17:20:21
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Original deleted "AC Librarian" thread (text only) retrieved from Google cached file. Pics and original Google page link due soon. Hopefully !
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Author Topic
msgsobe
USA
7 Posts
Posted - 02 September 2007 : 07:30:48
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Good day, all..
I am the owner of MA 200, the 1963 one off AC v8 prototype. She is very well documented, with factory engineering drawings, factory photos, etc etc. Articles in Thorobred and Classic, the Shelby registry and Mcclellans book, AC cars. She is currently undergoing a full nut and bolt restoration, and I want to be certain I have every piece of paper on her.
Where do all the old factory records currently reside? What about personal notes from Derek Hurlock regarding in house projects? Is there a club librarian?
If anyone has any additional information regarding MA 200, it is greatly appreciated!
Regards, Mark Gold
administrator
79 Posts
Posted - 03 September 2007 : 08:28:58
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Congratualtions re buying this attractive piece of AC history.
The old factory records are held by AC in Malta, who can be contacted by their website (on the links page on this site).
The club librarian is John Spencer: email acoclibrarian at lineupmore dot fsnet dot co dot uk
Hope you are club member or if not will be joining soon!
msgsobe
USA
7 Posts
Posted - 03 September 2007 : 16:44:26
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Thank you, yes I am a member, I will find a way to post some pics shortly of MA 200. mark
nikbj68
United Kingdom
236 Posts
Posted - 11 September 2007 : 19:36:49
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quote:
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Originally posted by msgsobe
Good day, all..
I am the owner of MA 200, the 1963 one off AC v8 prototype. ...If anyone has any additional information regarding MA 200, it is greatly appreciated!
....I will find a way to post some pics shortly of MA 200.
Regards, Mark Gold
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Hi Mark, great car! I found This auction report from 1997, but unfortunately no photos there, so for those of us who`d love to see MA 200, please look at the 5th post down in this thread!
Best regards, Nik.
msgsobe
USA
7 Posts
Posted - 17 September 2007 : 02:08:26
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heres a pic of MA 200, 1963, at thames Ditton!
http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/?action=view¤t=acside.jpg
Classicus
United Kingdom
139 Posts
Posted - 17 September 2007 : 12:50:25
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Hi Mark
Although solely a lifelong 428 Frua enthusiast I clearly remember seeing 6000 PE at an AC sprint meeting at Goodwood in the summer of about 1985/6/7 or so, blue paint flaking of and unfortunately pretty tired looking all round. The tall thinning fair haired owner who was I think in his mid thirties or so was incredibly enthusiastic about it and really enjoyed anyone taking an interest in it ! Can't remember if he said he'd just bought it, was trying to sell it or simply wanted to show everyone, nevertheless the Club might have written up something about it in their relevant monthly mag ? Equally any new owner details around that date should obviously be in the original old brown/green log book as well. And up until seeing this great pic I always thought it was a prototype Frua too (!) so all very interesting and thanks !
You might be interested in the just visible pic and mention of MA 200 below. I've had the photocopy for years but unfortunately no idea where it came from.
Good luck with the restoration !
Edit: I've just posted a couple of thoughts and some pics over on the 428 Forum showing some side view shots of MA 200, the AC 428 and the Maserati Mistrale Spyder.
Cass
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Edited by - Classicus on 17 September 2007 18:11:42
nikbj68
United Kingdom
236 Posts
Posted - 18 September 2007 : 06:58:57
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quote:
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Originally posted by Classicus....You might be interested in the just visible pic and mention of MA 200 below. I've had the photocopy for years but unfortunately no idea where it came from.
Cass
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I`m pretty sure that the pic is lifted from the "AC and Cobra" book by John McLellan
but the book is getting very hard to find now.(This pic taken from a July eBay auction that sold for £56)
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Edited by - nikbj68 on 18 September 2007 07:02:11
administrator
79 Posts
Posted - 18 September 2007 : 07:27:51
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Just to re-reiterate the reiterated, the reference to the 'flat six' is a huge red herring. The car was designed for a V8 and the engine bay is far too narrow to take the flat six. Although there is anecdotal evidence that the car may originally have been conceived for the flat six, the real thing was neither drawn nor built for it. A number of articles have appeared in ACtion down the years that make this very clear.
Classicus
United Kingdom
139 Posts
Posted - 18 September 2007 : 10:14:23
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quote:
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I`m pretty sure that the pic is lifted from the "AC and Cobra" book by John McLellan
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Thanks Nick nothing about 428s obviously otherwise it might be worth buying ?
Your pic of Mclellan's book and Cobra just reminded me of an old mag I've had lying around with a front cover pic of one. Finally found it and it's "Car Classics" from 2nd April 1992 with a pic of a red 1964 MK2 289 (FYW 96C) owned by Haynes Motor Museum with the road test inside. Several pics to go with it. Also there's an interview with Shelby by Herbert Shuldiner and a couple of further articles by Brian Laban with a couple of 60's race pics as well. 10 sides in all so if it's not already known of I can scan it sometime ?
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Edited by - Classicus on 18 September 2007 11:11:31
nikbj68
United Kingdom
236 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 06:52:32
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quote:
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Originally posted by Classicus
quote:
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I`m pretty sure that the pic is lifted from the "AC and Cobra" book by John McLellan
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Thanks Nick nothing about 428s obviously otherwise it might be worth buying ?
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I`m pretty sure the book is a 'life history' of AC so goes from Weller/Portwine up to the ME(published in `82, so nothing for the MkIV boys!),haven`t looked at it for a while, so I`ll check!
quote:
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Originally posted by Classicus....Finally found "Car Classics" from 2nd April 1992 with a pic of FYW 96C..Several pics to go with it. Also there's an interview with Shelby ..and a couple of further articles by Brian Laban with a couple of 60's race pics as well...if it's not already known of I can scan it sometime ?
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I don`t recall the article or the mag! Would love to see the 60`s pics.
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Edited by - nikbj68 on 19 September 2007 06:56:48
Trevor Legate
United Kingdom
127 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 09:44:36
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The McLellan book was published in 1982 and is often stocked by some of the used motor-book dealers. It was also co-published in the USA via Motorbooks, so copies can be found over there, one assumes!
The car shown in the magazine (nice pics, even though it rained!) is COB6029 which was brought by John Haynes in the 1970s - so he probably paid all of £3 10s 0d. Oh well.
If you want to see pics of MA200 under construction, you can do no better(!) than refer to page 57 of my first book, (Cobra)where there are 3 pics of it in the factory. When I was writing the book I paid a visit to Dr.Field, who lived near Chichester, and spent an afternoon discussing the car. He was treating the car as an on-going restoration project and at the time, he had just installed an engine from a Boss Mustang and was trying different shocks. Wish I knew where my photographs of it went! Must have them somewhere. I was put in touch by Derek Hurlock who pent some time talking about the flat-six engine. If I recall, they wanted MA200 to use the six but it was proving troublesome, so the car was built/designed to take a V8, much to the disgust of Mr.Marcewski. (The engine eventually went to Porsche were the root of its troubles was diagnosed. To correct the problem, it would have meant starting over, so it went in the dumpster, but when it worked, it was apparantly very effective!)
And if you need a copy of my book, I happen to have a copy here......(cheap plug)
Classicus
United Kingdom
139 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 11:43:03
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quote:
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I don`t recall the article or the mag! Would love to see the 60`s pics.
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One set of scans coming up at Windows 98's usual snail pace !
Interesting about your experiences with MA 200 Trevor and thank you for the info. I'm never too sure about this and don't know if you've read it too, but sometimes with Photobucket the pictures can only be accessed directly via the account holder's album, and Mark has very kindly done this. However apologies Mark and confessions all round (!), but I simply could not resist taking a few quick, very guilty peeks at some of the other very interesting articles also on there and they're all fascinating ! Alan Turner and Mr. Marcewski's very hostile feelings towards each other for one, but I think the telling line for me, as a hopeless amateur in all things mechanical, was Derek's quoted remark "What would you do ?" when faced with the fact that the flat six (can't remember the exact figures) was some 165 bhp and far more expensive that the Ford engine which was far more powerful and much cheaper.
Great stuff !
Incidentally Trevor, Nick and anyone else interested, what did you make if anything of the dates and comparison of styles pics of MA 200, the Mistrale Spyder and the 428 and who might have been influenced by who, or not, when it came to the final design of the 428 ? I've always assumed not knowing otherwise that Frua had originally come up with the design as a result of his work on the Mistrale, but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps they had seen each other's designs long before through trade or show contacts and whilst obviously Derek must have had quite a large say and input when in Turin etc., being horribly ultra-partisan wouldn't it be nice to think that Derek and his design team's MA 200 might just have inspired some or all of Pietro's subsequent 428 and Mistrale work LOL !!
nikbj68
United Kingdom
236 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 12:54:37
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quote:
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Originally posted by Classicus
....I simply could not resist taking a few quick, very guilty peeks at some of the other very interesting articles also on there and they're all fascinating ! ... but I think the telling line for me...was Derek[Hurlock]'s quoted remark "What would you do ?" when faced with the fact that the flat six (can't remember the exact figures) was some 165 bhp and far more expensive that the Ford engine which was far more powerful and much cheaper....Great stuff ! .
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I too enjoyed the other items in Mark`s gallery.
The article quoted the Flat six as £2000 and 165bhp, and the 289 V8 as 271bhp for £250 delivered! (Bearing in mind that a Ford Cortina would have cost around £550 at the time!)OK, the V8 was heavier, but other than that, No Contest!
quote:
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Originally posted by Classicus....Incidentally Trevor, Nick and anyone else interested, what did you make if anything of the dates and comparison of styles pics of MA 200, the Mistrale Spyder and the 428 and who might have been influenced by who, or not, when it came to the final design of the 428 ? ....
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One could almost wonder whether 780 pages of technical drawings made their way from one factory to another....
Classicus
United Kingdom
139 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 13:07:07
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quote:
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One could almost wonder whether 780 pages of technical drawings made their way from one factory to another....
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Love it ! LOL !!!!
Classicus
United Kingdom
139 Posts
Posted - 19 September 2007 : 13:29:22
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Leading on from all of the above but leaving out the design sides and questions, I'm now wondering just how much of an overall influence MA 200 might in fact have had on the 428 anyway ?
Any not too technical (!) thoughts much appreciated !
(Continued from above accidentally deleted post on General Forum - "AC Librarian")
Getting there ! So to bring it all into loose context and come to any sort of early decisions as regards the original question below, I think it might be helpful to clarify some exact dates if and where possible.
"As MA 200 (as a convertible) was apparently up and running in 1963 whilst the Mistrale Coupe was first shown in November 1963 and the Spyder introduced in the Spring of 1964, each already starting to get quite close to the outline of the 428, it's starting to make me wonder who might have thought of the final 428 design itself first ? Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ? Either way I think it's a fascinating backdrop and comparison with all 3 cars !!"
1. Month ? 1962 - AC Factory. First drawing MA 200.
2. Month ? 1963 - AC Factory. MA 200 Completed Car.
3. Month/ date ? - MA 200 visit to Modena.
4. Month/ date ? - Pietro Frua. First Drawing (Dis. 729) of the AC 428.
5. November 1963 - The Maserati Mistrale Coupe originally named the 'Due Posti', was first shown in a preview at the Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile di Torino in November 1963.
6. Spring 1964 - "....for delivery Maserati's anxious customers had to wait until the spring of 1964 when the Spyder version was introduced at the Salone di Ginevra."
Reference:
http://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri56.htm
AC Factory's first drawing of MA 200 prototype - 1962
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-ACFactoryfirstdrawin.jpg)
Pietro Frua's first drawing (Dis 729) of AC 428 prototype. Date unknown
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototype-Fruafirstdrawing.jpg)
MA 200 prototype. Completed car outside AC Factory - 1963
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/MA200Prototypesmallerpic.jpg)
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what happened to my post???
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Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post.
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why not leave the porn post? LOL
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quote:
Originally posted by msgsobe
why not leave the porn post? LOL
I suspect it was a cut-rate porn site. Not that I actually checked, mind you.
-- Chuck
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Hi Mark
Could you possibly do a very high resolution and then upload the AC factory's original 1962 drawing of MA 200 again, as I'd like to enlarge all of them for much closer and more detailed inspection and comparisons ? But before you do could you first flatten out the drawing to remove all the creases, plus make sure that the light source is evenly distributed over the whole sheet ?
Moths and myopia seem to have got at my copy ! [:p]
Thanks
Cass
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Having followed the earlier MA200 thread(now deleted)with interest I couldn't help but notice similarities to the earlier (59-63) Greyhound, certainly round the rear quarter and the flank.
The Greyhound is obviously a design from a previous decade and a larger car overal but the MA200 lineage would seem apparant.
I have attached an image of a somewhat modified Greyhound for comparison.
Also I believe that MA200 was origionaly designed for a V8 some time prior to the Shelby concept, is it possible that this was intended to be the Buick 3.5ltr unit(later to become rover)as AC where rumoured to be in discussion with Buick at this time whilst searching for a replacement for the discontinued Bristol unit.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee313/Davidjgoose/DSCF0005.jpg)
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MA 200 revealed...hers the chassis, body off, note the space frame chassis rather than big tubes like the ace and cobra
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/MA-body-3.jpg)
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Greetings all:
New board member here. I'm neither a club member or AC owner, but have been fascinated by all things AC since the Cobra first appeared back in the '60's (ABC's Wide World of Sports coverage of the 1964 Sebring 12 hour to be precise). I've been particularly interested in MA 200 since I saw that first picture in Road and Track back in '64. To my mind, one of the cleanest and prettiest designs ever to roll out of any manufacturing facility.
As you all know, that car appeared briefly and then fell off the face of the earth. Every now and then it would show up in a classic car mag, but, for the most part, was pretty much forgotten. I never forgot it, however, and would occasionally go online to see if there was any news (or pictures), but never could find anything. I figured it was either tucked away in some private collection, or perhaps even abandoned in some vacant lot.
Suddenly, it appears in October 'O7 in T&CC and my interest is revived. I posted an inquiry on their message board and a few weeks later receive a reply from Mark Gold, stating that he now owns the car and is having it restored to it's former glory. Lucky man.
That encounter lead me to this site, and I've spent the last week or so catching up on my AC (particularly MA200) history via this forum.
Fascinating stuff. Keep in mind that this car has been my Holy Grail for nigh onto 40 years and one I would have loved to add to my otherwise rather mundane collection (A couple of MG TD's and a Datsun 280Z).
Well, Mark's got it and I think that's great. I'm so relieved to see it's still around and he's giving it the attention it deserves. I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures of it as it's restoration continues and hopefully, when completed, it'll be more in the public eye.
By the way, the pictures posted on this forum are very interesting and include some I've never seen before. In fact, I've never seen what the rear of the car looks like, except for those old factory pictures posted, (while under construction so you can't tell much) and can only guess as to what it might look like. My guess, given the short tail fins and vertical design of the taillights would be a cross between an Aston Martin DB5 and possible an MGB or Sunbeam Alpine, but that's mere speculation.
I'm also playing a bit of "Guess The Supplier" as far as the detail parts go. Given the propensity of small manufacturers to use proprietary components, I think I spot a bit of Jaguar E-type in the windscreen, door handles and front turn signals, maybe Rover or Jag in the taillights, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, thought I'd say hello, and offer my two cents on this terrific automobile.
Peter Whelan
Shrewsbury, MA USA
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Welcome Peter ! [:)]
And a very interesting first post too. Coincidentally and as you've probably read we're currently playing "Guess The Designer" of the 428, Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ! Currently odds on Derek with MA 200 by several lengths !
Cass [:D]
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Well, given the timeline, the Mistral predating the 428 by a couple of years, and the similarities between the two, I'd guess Frua did them both.
There are a number of recurring themes used on both cars. The windshields look identical, the swage line running from the headlights to the rear fender is similar, although more pronounced on the Maser, the scooped headlights, of course, the intake below the front bumper theme, oblong tail lights, etc.
That said, there are also some similarities between the 428 and some of Frua's previous designs. The "power bulge" running down the center of the hood (bonnet) to the front valance is similar to the Frua's version of the Maserati 5000 GT, as is the kick up of the rear fender line. The busy detail of the 428's nose reminds me of previous Frua efforts, as well. Frua was notorious for overdressing the grille area, the Mistral probably the most conservative of any of his contemporary designs.
More than likely, MA200 was the styling model that was used for both cars. Frua adapted AC's original, rather conservative, in-house design, spiffed it up a bit, especially along the slab sided flanks, sold it to Maserati for use on the Mistral, and then made some detail changes and sold it back to AC.
All three are beautiful cars and so similar in theme that there had to be a bit of comingling, whether intentional or not.
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Agreed all round, I sometimes think though from one or two side view angles only there's shades of an early 428 in Frua's 1962 Maserati 5000 "Aga Khan" Coupé as well.
http://www.pietro-frua.de/1962_maserati.htm
Personally I've been hooked on the 428 for over 30 years and all forms of motor sport heaven knows how long before that ! [:D]
However we're still trying to pin the history and details of MA 200 down far more accurately as per para C). below, so for your info I've brought together the overall general state of play and situation from one or two other websites and threads as well.
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A).
If you haven't seen it already you'll first need to check out Pietro Frua's detailed website, particularly the 428 webpages.
http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac.htm
Note especially his first 3 sketches for the 428 at the top - Dis 729, 730, 731. (It's Dis 729 that's the important one). Everything's in German though there is a very average (!) English translation clickable button in the top right hand corner.
B).
Next see the thread and relevant pics at the top of the second AC 428 main forum page labelled "AC V8 prototype or Maserati Mistrale Spyder ?".
http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=6&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=0&whichpage=2
C).
Which finally brings things to the following text copied out from further up this same page, in fact Mark is currently re-scanning the 1962 first drawing of MA 200 in high resolution to enable more detailed and closer inspection. You can also click on the thread "The Gentleman's Express Club AC 428 Register" for the latest pics of MA 200's rebuild as well - after CF 80. (Incidentally if you ever get the chance to see his Photobucket album cum archive of MA 200 it's something else ! He's collected together some really excellent pics and historical facts !!)
"As MA 200 (as a convertible) was apparently up and running in 1963 whilst the Mistrale Coupe was first shown in November 1963 and the Spyder introduced in the Spring of 1964, each already starting to get quite close to the outline of the 428, it's starting to make me wonder who might have thought of the final 428 design itself first ? Derek Hurlock or Pietro Frua ? Either way I think it's a fascinating backdrop and comparison with all 3 cars !!"
1. Month ? 1962 - AC Factory. First drawing MA 200.
2. Month ? 1963 - AC Factory. MA 200 Completed Car.
3. Month/ date ? - MA 200 visit to Modena.
4. Month/ date ? - Pietro Frua. First Drawing (Dis. 729) of the AC 428.
5. November 1963 - The Maserati Mistrale Coupe originally named the 'Due Posti', was first shown in a preview at the Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile di Torino in November 1963.
6. Spring 1964 - "....for delivery Maserati's anxious customers had to wait until the spring of 1964 when the Spyder version was introduced at the Salone di Ginevra."
As I said I definitely think Derek and MA 200 are now well ahead by several lengths !
Cass [:)]
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Good Morning, Cass,
Yes, I have read all the relevent pages and viewed (and downloaded) Mark's pics. Remember, MA200 has been a low grade obsession with me, so any info would be devoured voraciously. I even tracked down the June '85 issue of T&CC (on Ebay UK, incidently) which I didn't have, (been a subscriber since the early '90's) and hopefully I 'll have it in hand shortly.
I guess my previous post was a little unclear. I have to agree with your conclusion, that MA200 was the seed that ultimately produced both the Mistral and the 428, with some styling nuances, all of which have echos and similarities to Frua's previous designs.
The AC design, while very clean and attractive, does look a bit bland compared to the other two. While the front clip is very sleek and inspiring, the design seems to lose it's drama from the doors back, given the overall slab sided look and the rather old school taillights and rear deck. There are distinct similarities to the Greyhound along the rear wing and, as I previously opined, the taillights look like they were borrowed from the Rover P5 and the deck lid could be borrowed from a Series I Sunbeam Alpine. Again, this is mere speculation as I've yet to see a photo of the rear end treatment. Hopefully, Mark can post those from his archive.
(If you've ever seen a picture of the prototype Daimler SP250 Series III, which Jaguar axed before it reached production, fearing it would compete with the E-type, that would be close to the MA200's rear treatment, in my opinion).
Considering the price point at which all of these cars were designed to sell, perhaps Frua felt the customer should expect a little more drama and "bang for the buck" from the finished product, prompting him to add the additional detail to both cars.
Could it be the marketing department had their input with styling even back then?
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Sounds suspiciously like you're starting to get bitten by the 428 bug as well ! [;)]
quote:
Could it be the marketing department had their input with styling even back then?
I've always had the feeling that it was a direct consequence and therefore a logical progression on from the very stylish Ace, Aceca & Greyhound models.
quote:
(If you've ever seen a picture of the prototype Daimler SP250 Series III, which Jaguar axed before it reached production, fearing it would compete with the E-type, that would be close to the MA200's rear treatment, in my opinion).
Can't remember ever seeing this one, any pics available on the Net by any chance ?
As for the 428 I'm now beginning to think that it was plain luck and sheer good fortune that both men ever met at all. It was such a big departure from all their previous models and a huge financial gamble for Derek Hurlock and the factory as a whole to even consider aiming, never mind producing, such a luxury car for the top end of the market in the first place. Especially at such a disadvantageous price too. Equally I've always felt Derek possessed a sound business mind as well as a very keen eye for design to begin with, for as I've said many times it's still the finest and most beautiful car I've ever seen. And in his shoes I think it likely that many others after so many years in the trade would probably have wanted just as much to leave their own personal contributions as well.
I haven't looked at all of Frua's other work very closely but for me the 428 just has that indefinable something every time I see one. I've always liked the pungent ring of phrases such as "Forceful Aestheticism" and the like ! [:p]
One way perhaps of looking at it all bearing in mind beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. For example whilst it was a very good looking car I never went overboard about the E-Type at all, though by contrast I always greatly admired the very forceful looking works Healeys with that extra hump in the boot ! (Most yummy !). Whether it was because the E-Type was so reasonably priced to begin with I don't know nevertheless they proved enormously popular and one assumes a great financial success. Yet I've always wondered what would have been its fate if it had been for sale at say two or three times its original price ? In much the same way as the 428 ? That there might have been no more than say perhaps 150 - 200 examples of the E-Type ever made and nowadays the few remaining quite possibly valued at exclusive 250 GTO prices ?
So the million pound question for me has always been what if the 428 with its mere 80 cars sold, had been for sale at around the same price levels as the E-Type ? And I've always come up with the same answer that where genuinely deserved, and I emphasise where genuinely deserved, rarity when combined with any beautiful object will always easily create its own standards and set its own seals on genuine exclusivity. Every time. And it is genuine exclusivity that I believe has and always will continue to sum up the 428 to perfection.
Consequently what I will never understand is why they are still so ridiculously undervalued and therefore presumably underpriced as a result ? Inexplicably leaving them permanently at the mercy of get rich quick merchants only too eager to convert them into yet another Cobra replica.
All very puzzling and disheartening. Still MA 200 combining with Frua's first drawing for the 428 "Dis 719" says it all for me. [8D]
Cass [:)] (Paul actually but as there's another Paul on here it's easier !)
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Peter, glad you found us! cass, should have yor drawings soon. the resto is coming along great, no issues, body was in great shape, as well as the chassis.
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Cass:
Good questions all. How Hurlock got together with Frua was probably a natural progression, given the trend of British manufacturers to ally themselves with Italian designers in the early '60's. Triumph teamed with Michelotti for the TR4, Spitfire, 2000 Sedan, and others, and with Vignale for the Italia. Gordon-Keeble (the few that were produced) was a Bertone design, Aston Martin had Touring do their DB4 and 5, and Zagato did their DB4 Zagato.
There was a lot of that going on, and maybe AC just went with the trend. Unfortunately for AC, the convoluted and more sophisticated manufacturing processes, (body stamped and assembled in Italy, then shipped back to Thames Ditton for the trimming and fitting), probably pushed the finished costs beyond what they were aiming for. All of a sudden they were in Ferrari territory, price wise.
Before the 428, the E-type, Corvette, and Cobra all sold at roughly the same $6000US price point. Had AC been able to sell the 428 in that price range, they probably would have moved thousands of them. Of course, AC was a tiny company compared to Jaguar or GM, so, even if they could streamline the assembly process, the economies of scale would have prevented it.
As to the value of 428's on the classic car market, it doesn't appear to me that they seem to suffer that much relative to their direct competition, aside from Ferrari. Maserati, Bizzarini, Iso, Jensen, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all seem to hover around the same price range. Only Ferrari is worth more, model for model.
Why? Because nothing else in the world is Ferrari, with the competition history, glittering clientele, reputation, etc. Plus Ferrari has that V12 engine.
The 428 may be a better car in many ways, and a lot rarer as well, but if you put a Ferrari emblem on it, it's value would triple overnight.
Only dedicated car nuts know who the Hurlock brothers were, or the Orsi Brothers, or David Brown, or even Ferruchio Lamborghini. Everyone knows who Enzo Ferrari was.
Re:the Daimler prototype. A brief online search didn't turn up any pictures of it. I do remember an article in either Classic and Sportscar or T&CC (my Britbooks, as I call them). If I can find the article, I'll scan it and try to post a picture on this forum. Of course, if Mark posts a pic of MA200's rear end, we can moot the point, entirely.
Got any more pictures, Mark?
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Posted by administrator 18 October 2007 : 08:13:09
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"Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post"
LMAO !
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Cass and All:
Mark posted some additional pics on his Photobucket site (thanks, Mark!). At last I know what the rest of MA200 looks like. Not quite what I expected, but close. It looks like they stayed with a more traditional 50's look when the rest of the competition was going chopped off, Kamm style rear treatment. Reminds me a bit of the DB5, as I first guessed, with a bit of Maserati 3500GT thrown in.
Of course this was the prototype, so everything was subject to change, and indeed, it eventually did.
Very handsome though, I like it...a lot. Now about the interior...
By the way, I forgot about the RHD. That ought to make driving a bit interesting, stateside, no?
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quote:
"Apologies - hit the wrong button while deleting a porn post"
LMAO !
Hmmmm....
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here's a pic with the man himself!!
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/6000PEMA200atThamesDitton10.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by msgsobe
here's a pic with the man himself!!
Doesn`t look anything like Carroll Shelby!
[:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)]
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I hate to say this Nik but you're on the wrong forum - it's a little tricky, I know...but keep out of Thames Ditton.
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WOW ! You've made my day Mark ! You can almost feel Derek's pride it's so obvious.... And another GREAT pic for the collection !!!!!!
Thanks a miljun !
[8D][:p][8D][:p]
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Anyone want to venture what factory color that is. 1962/63. trevor help!
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Whatever the original color is, it's better than the color shown in the recent T&CC article, or this ad in their Nov '97 issue when it came up for auction. I'm guessing it was this color when you found it, Mark.
(First try at posting a picture...hope it works)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii248/Peterw11/SYFCA001.jpg)
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yep, that was the color when I got it! Couldn't wait to bring it to bare aluminum.
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quote:
As to the value of 428's on the classic car market, it doesn't appear to me that they seem to suffer that much relative to their direct competition, aside from Ferrari. Maserati, Bizzarini, Iso, Jensen, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all seem to hover around the same price range. Only Ferrari is worth more, model for model.
Hi Peter
Obviously every classic car fan has their particular favourite make and model be it Cobra, Ferrari, Lambos across to Minis etc. and market values obviously try to reflect this. However with regard to the existing market values of the AC 428 which currently vary between roughly £40k - £70k, there are perhaps two lesser known additional facts and subsequent problems that I believe ought to be clearly highlighted beforehand when seen in tandem with their rarity. Firstly that the 428 has the same chassis as the Cobra although 6" longer, and secondly in the past perhaps because the body was too far gone a few were converted into Cobra etc. replicas.
Reference the topic "How many Frua left ?" - bottom of main Forum Page 2 - sheet 1. And the posting quoted below on the 29th January 2007 -
http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=1
quote:
"....in the current issue of C&SC, page 178, there is a remarkable comment from a dealer (Hurst Park) who has a 428 for sale. He has had five calls from people wanting to convert it into a Cobra....!"
Referring to the Register this in all likelihood would have been either Query no. 5).(at the bottom) - Reg. No. NUJ 14, or chassis number CF 57, yet when you look at their pictures both appear to be in excellent condition.
Unfortunately and in what is appearing to be a relatively new development, it would seem that now there are others out there who all of a sudden are very keen indeed to buy 428s and convert them into Cobra replicas as well. Most astonishingly almost regardless of condition, probably because they are well aware there are a lot of buyers out there interested in having one. Perhaps they think a brand new Cobra replica with an original AC chassis is somehow important, though what exactly is so special or what advantage or difference a 35 year old plus chassis has over a new one, especially in conjunction with today's road safety rules I cannot even begin to imagine; though obviously I accept having always been hopeless in all things mechanical doesn't exactly help.
As to the costs of building such strange conversions I've no idea either.
However when one next considers the example of Query no. 21). near the bottom of the Register....
http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=548&whichpage=1
....where a former 428 chassis with a Cobra replica body is or was (?) recently advertised for sale in Germany at the astonishing figure of nearly 200,000 Euros or almost £140k it would appear, short of any other logical explanations, that yet again it is the 428 chassis that is worth such money whilst the rest of the body is presumably….what ? Worthless ? Taken all round the whole subject does start to raise some very worrying thoughts indeed, especially as such work could have been carried out by anyone.
Whatever the real reasons they're obviously unimportant and irrelevant, but what it does mean I believe is that in order to prevent all remaining 428s suffering a similarly ignominous fate, an immediate and thorough re-appraisal and re-evaluation of the market value of both AC 428 Frua models is now extremely urgent and vital and not left until it is too late. Ideally always seeking to maintain their value, regardless of condition, some 15% - 20% above the highest prices that all existing 428/ Cobra conversion replicas are fetching at any given time. In other words to employ whatever means are deemed necessary that will make it hopelessly uneconomical to ever consider the wanton destruction of any AC 428 Frua again. In addition, and above all, to ensure that such means help to permanently protect, maintain and cherish the few, now extremely rare, important and genuinely exclusive examples remaining of a brilliant 1960's concept and design from the house of a highly respected and long established British manufacturer.
Or perhaps I should put it all a little more bluntly. Depending on condition and if I owned one I would not think of insuring or dream of selling it as of today for anything less than around £150k - £175k. Minimum. Why should I ? So that some total stranger without a shred of personal interest in the car, its history or its rarity should make an outrageous profit not only from its unnecessary and callous destruction but to add insult to injury all at my expense as well ? I'm afraid not [:)]
Anyway with the greatest respect to Ferrari emblems and history together with all other top end of the market classic and luxury cars in the world, give me an ultra rare and genuinely exclusive AC Frua 428 any day ! Oh yes musn't forget that excellent Cobra race tuned chassis as well.
Cass [:)]
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Same thing was/is happening to the less valuable V12 Ferrari models, particularly the 250 and 330 2+2's. They take the engine and drive train and build a GTO or Testa Rossa around it. Even a replica can sell for 10 times what a 2+2 is worth on it's best day.
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What would the value impact of having a new chassis on a 428 be?
You can see where I`m going with this...the automotive equivalent of selling your own kidney...
If the butchers are only interested in the chassis, offer `em a grand for what`s left over, get a new chassis for yourself, and you could have your own 428 on the road for £25-30k, Cass!
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
What would the value impact of having a new chassis on a 428 be?
Hi Nik
I guess you should really be addressing this question to someone in the Club not me as it's a very common classic car situation that's been around for years, so I'm sure the same problem has arisen with many earlier AC models too.
However for many owners of older cars originality can often be an extremely subjective and very touchy issue, so it would largely depend on what your own goals are; or perhaps how you feel any non original items might or might not affect its resale value later on. Of course in this case a lot would hinge on the condition of the original chassis and how and if it could be restored first.
For me personally originality will always count for everything bar none, so in answer to your question a huge and highly detrimental originality impact (never value - horrors !!) and one I would never ever consider except as a very last resort.
Think of it all perhaps like a very old and extremely valuable oil painting painted by your great, great grandfather that's been in your family ever since, yet is now badly in need of careful restoration. How important would retaining its originality be to you then Nik ? And what would you do ?
And there should be the answer to your question [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by ClassicusHi Nik...for many owners of older cars originality can often be an extremely subjective and very touchy issue, so it would largely depend on what your own goals are...For me personally originality will always count for everything bar none...
Think of it all perhaps like a very old and extremely valuable oil painting painted by your great, great grandfather that's been in your family ever since, yet is now badly in need of careful restoration. How important would retaining its originality be to you then Nik ? And what would you do ?...[;)]
I have a pretty fair idea of the answers, I`m right there with you on the importance of originality, I`d much rather see a slightly tatty 'used & much loved' car than a gleaming, over-chromed, 'better-than-new' show car any day.
Interesting choice of analogy, as my father & his wife run a picture restoring business!![8D]
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As Fruas' were hand built cars, each one is different so establishing originality is difficult. Engine have no numbers, just build codes, interiors are all setup differently etc. You can't have absolute originality, as long as the car is setup right this is what counts. Just drive them and enjoy! Take them to shows and let them be seen. Cars are not oil paintings, they are a mean to get you places relatively quickly.
Enjoy!! [}:)]
Emmanuel
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quote:
Cars are not oil paintings, they are a mean to get you places relatively quickly.
From the flip side view as "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and the 428 being the most beautiful car I have ever seen, few oil paintings will ever come close to Pietro's masterpiece [;)]
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Coming in late on the discussion. I missed if the car has a coil spring suspension or leaf springs like the Shelby small block cars.
Also the vent in the side wing (fender over here in the US) seems reminescent of Giugiaro's penchant at the time of putting side vents in everything from Maserati 5000s to the one off Ferrari swb 250GT he did for Carrozzeria Bertone. Has anyone talked to Giugiaro to see if he free lanced this on the side from Bertone?
Also I missed seeing the rear 3/4 views. Was it posted?
I got a laugh out of the engineers' disappointment in the six. I guess it takes a lot to admit you can't reinvent the wheel and Porsche had invented the wheel with the flat six.
Congratulations to the owner who sees this car as significant as it is...
California History Buff
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Hi Strada:
I've been dropping in and out of this thread, (mostly out,lately) and if you've read my posts, can see that I share your interest in this particular vehicle, and have done so for many years.
Mark Gold, the newest owner of MA 200, had linked his Photobucket page in another thread, which contains a few more additional pics of the car, including a rear end shot which, AFAIK, had never been previously published.
You can find it at http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/.
Just copy and past it into your browser and it should come up.
I just visited the page and noticed a new picture added, that being a black and white photo of the 289 V8 in situ.
Hopefully Mark will continue to add new pictures so that those interested can get a better idea of what this lovely design looked like when original built.
In addition, the shop which is currently restoring the car, The Creative Workshop in Florida, has added a few new pictures of the car in it's present dissassembled state, as the restoration work continues.
Just cut and paste:
http://www.thecreativeworkshop.com/Pages/page%20Daily%20pics.htm
and their site will come up.
They seem to be making quite a bit of progress, considering how difficult it must be to restore a one-off, hand built car such as this beauty.
As far as the suspension goes, it seems to be as unique as the car (and the original engine design) itself. Neither leaf or typical Cobra coil sprung, it appears to be a protoype inboard coil with rocker arms setup, never used before (or since), on a production AC chassis.
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Hi All,
Just checking in. The resto is moving along faster than anticipated, as the car is fully cooperating! There was some electrolysis where the aluminum meets the space frame, which has been dealt with, but otherwise, most of the body was amazingly intact. it's really fun guessing where parts came from, for example, the rear license plate lights came from a 356!
here's a pic Trevor Legate was kind enough to share with me, Taken at Silverstone, the first test of the 427 Cobra. MA 200 is in the background. That's Chris Amon with the helmet! We assume Derek Hurlock drove MA 200 to the meet.
IMG]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/silverstone.jpg[/img]
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Hi Mark:
Great to hear the resto work is progressing so smoothly. The uniqueness of the car and the careful stewardship of it's relatively few previous owners seems to have paid off.
Let's face it, you don't find too many 40 year old cars that haven't had one or two dented panels or fallen victim to the tin worm. It's obvious that the car has lead a fairly pampered life.
Given the fragility of it's hand formed aluminum panels, it's even more remarkable.
I can see the Porsche parts on the rear bumper now that you've given the heads up, (I doubt I would have made the connection otherwise).
Did you get a list of the parts sources in the paperwork that came with the car? I think I see Rover P5 in the front turn signals and taillights, but I could be wrong.
The trunk locks look pretty generic, they could have even come from my MG TD as they are similar in function, if not identical in appearance. The lid itself could have come from a Gordon-Keeble, although I'm sure AC built one specific to this project. Unless it's fiberglass rather than aluminum...then it could very well be from GK.
And I've yet to figure the source for the bumpers...I'm guessing they were one offs as well.
Do you have any shots of the interior? Love to see what that looks like.
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Hi peter. yes the bumpers are one offs..there is a list of some of the generic parts in the notebook kept by marcewski that came with the car. heres a pic of the interior, we know the seats, even tho they are really cool, are not original.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n20/markgold/acint.jpg)