AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: ANF289 on August 04, 2011, 20:50:50
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See: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-AC-428-FRUA-CF62-RARE-Cobra-427-Chassis-/230655340665?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35b4213079
1968 AC 428 FRUA CF62 RARE Cobra 427 Chassis
Item Location: Pensacola, FL, United States
Price: US $130,000.00
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I discussed this car with Emmanuel, who suspects it's "as rotten as a pear" underneath. (He should know vis-a-vis his own experience). The jacking points are missing in the rocker panels. The bonnet doesn't fit very well (it's been modified, but that wouldn't account for it). Missing the front bumper, and the door gaps are uneven. Rear bumper is pieced together badly. It certainly is not a 1968 car - maybe 1970-71. Or 1972. Chassis number and interior makes this a later car.
Sunroof is a nice touch though.
This car needs a close inspection by someone with a good deal of familiarity with 428's, and a strong magnet.
Or very deep pockets.
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Furthermore, wing edges look very thin which is a sure sign of massive body filler around the wheel openings. I have asked the dealer listing it for more photos. As Jeffrey said, I strongly advise on a thorough inspection before buying.
Spoke to the dealer yesterday, he said a few people are interested, told me the car was in very good condition which does not seem too likely looking at the photos posted. He said he would Email me more photos, I requested from the undercarriage and the wing lips, we will see. The good part is that the car seems to be complete with the exception of the front bumper. So at the right price this could be a nice restoration project! The question is, what is the right price these days?
Emmanuel[:)]
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Car just sold for $95K, If the chassis is straight and the car was repaired professionally then it is a good buy!
http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=2
http://www.collectorcarads.com/AC-428-Frua/4117
You know what, upon looking at the photos again on my big screen, none of the panels are straight, even the boot lid protrudes more on one side that the other, the lines on the side are not straight. This car is just terrible, good for parts. The guy paid too much. I feel bad for him. But you know as they say, buyer be aware. In this case, I hope it's a dead beet.
Emmanuel[:)]
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"I hope it's a dead Beet"?
Is that a French expression, Emmanuel?
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Oh I meant "Deadbeat" I am just a foreigner!
Emmanuel[:D]
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CF62 is back on eBay again. So the previous buyer fell through.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Chassis-427-1968-AC-428-FRUA-CF62-RARE-Cobra-427-Chassis-/230659620587?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35b4627eeb#ht_8581wt_948
Emmanuel
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I do hope someone buys it and loves it "right".
Who knows? The armchair speculation this car has been subject to is not based on actual inspection of the car as it is now.
Buying a car on Ebay can be very dicey. I think it's very rare for an excellent, no problems car to be offered via Ebay. Especially a car as rare and (potentially) expensive as this car. It's certainly worth a considerable amount, even if it has needs as drastic as the speculation would have it seem. It's largely complete, it seems.
I wonder how long the engine mount has been broken? Might it be as far back as the late 1970's?
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quote:
Originally posted by J Jones
....The armchair speculation this car has been subject to is not based on actual inspection of the car as it is now.
Pity the car's not closer to take a good close look beforehand....
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Hi everyone, just got back from a great vacation. I seem to remember reading on the forum somewhere previously ( or perhaps it was on the 428 register itself ) that this car allegedly had at some time in the past had a very major accident? That would explain the terrible panel fit everywhere and the missing bumpers? Only allegedly as it could always be incorrect rumour.
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Just read the other threads now mentioning this car and looked at the photos, no wonder the first buyer pulled out, looks like a lot of work and expense to put right, lucky she wasn't turned into a Cobra !
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Welcome back! CF62 back again on the internet! This time offered for sale by the original owner, how funny! Also, they are saying it was originally blue. Any reference to CF62 is now absent! [:D]
http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/8/20/Unique-of-the-Week-1971-AC-428-Frua-Fastback-7704373/
Be aware of what you see on the Internet, it should be taken with a grain of salt! By all mean, CF62 should find a good home but the seller should disclose everything about the car's history and an educated buyer will buy it, maybe not for top $.
Emmanuel [:D]
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I seem to remember the name of Mike McCluskey being mentioned in relation to CF 62 (sleeving ?) but now can't find it. However in the interests of preserving all remaining 428s and to definitely avoid the risk of it being sold cheap and made into yet another "Cobra", is this the sort of project he might be tempted into buying as it would be great if he could take detailed pics of its full restoration, if needed, for future reference by all other 428 owners ?
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I think they have hit and exceeded the cut-off value for Cobra chopping now (finally)!
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Actually, I was there Yesterday and mentioned the car. As I said before, the amount of work to straighten the chassis would be huge and would involve lifting the body from the car if there is a bend between the firewall and rear axle. The chassis is so massive that it is very hard to make straight. Of course, I am sure, they would tackle the project providing somebody purchase the car and finance the restoration!
Emmanuel[:)]
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I think it's long past time someone asked for a full inspection of the car if only to satisfy our curiosity that the chassis was so strong it didn't suffer any damage ! [:)]
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Once I am done with mine, I could envision tackling this project, providing I could acquire the car at a reasonnable price. It's all a matter of economics. So if the car is still available in about a year, I will consider it! I kind of enjoy this type of project. Now I know what I would do differently as well. We will see! And of course, it would be all documented. I think the main mistake I made in my current restoration was to respray the car in primer before removing all the lead. It added a substantial amount of time to the project by hiding spots which needed attention. We approached it as we would do with an aluminium bodied car, but that made it more difficult to spot the previous shoddy repairs.
Emmanuel[:)]
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I was actually thinking Mike McCluskey might be tempted into buying it.... [;)]
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Paul, I don't think Mike would be interested! He is more of an early Cobra and airplane guy. Although, with my car being restored there and Jeffrey's having been there as well, lots of Cobra guys have expressed interest in the Frua. I think the biggest hurdle has been for the fact they are so rare and suffer from well known corrosion issues. It's less of a problem now as prices are rising and cars are being restored. After all, Ferraries and other Italian exotics have the same issues. When my car is finished with it's million bucks paint job, I think these guys will say "oh my god what a gorgeous automobile" Jeffrey and I plan to show them at various events here in California like Concorso Italiano and the Rodeo Drive show for example. As well as various other events.
As I have said before, the more these cars get shown, the more they will be appreciated for what they are, "A Cobra with a bathtub on top" but what a pretty bathtub. With the exception of CFX37 which sits hidden in a private collection, most of the Fruas I have seen look rather scruffy and that does not do justice to these cars at all. So guys, restore them, show them and please drive them.
Emmanuel[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
I don't think Mike would be interested! He is more of an early Cobra and airplane guy. Although, with my car being restored there and Jeffrey's having been there as well, lots of Cobra guys have expressed interest in the Frua.
Business is business Emmanuel [:)]
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Emmanuel I think you want to be bidding about $ 40,000 ( £ 30,000 ) for that white car? Sounds harsh but otherwise I think the cost of proper restoration will take the finished car to well over it's current market value.
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Hi with the interest in CF62, l have been told the crash photos are a mock up and have been used before (photoshopped) with other no plates attached, is this true does anyone know of this.
CF 62 was blue the car in the pictures is silver?
What is the real story????????????
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This is the first I have heard of this. I have all of the original photos in front of me now and will rescan some of them later this morning, but reverse the images in Paintshop to prove they are original if you wish. Finally I have no idea of the original colour of the car which might have been blue when new or resprayed afterwards.
This is all the information I have.
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage.jpg)
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage1.jpg)
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage2.jpg)
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage3.jpg)
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage4.jpg)
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage5.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by concrete8
Hi with the interest in CF62, l have been told the crash photos are a mock up and have been used before (photoshopped) with other no plates attached, is this true does anyone know of this.
CF 62 was blue the car in the pictures is silver?
What is the real story????????????
I hope you are not listening to the dealer, they told me the car was perfect, they have made up the story about it's long time owner being sick and needing to sell it to pay medical bills. When I first heard of the car a few years back, it was being advertised by a dealer in San Diego. When I spoke to that dealer, he told me the car was ruff but restorable, he was looking for around $30K, i think it was advertised for $35K. Anyway, the current dealer in Florida has advertised it in different places on the net with a different story each time. The blue color is new and now its a one owner car! Stay away, I agree, $30 to $40k and closer to $30k is the most i would pay for what is very likely a part car. Looking at the front end crash photo, there is no way the chassis is straight, it's smashed all the way to the suspension towers. Kirkham to the rescue for these bits!
Paul, since you have photoshop, could you lighten up the front end collision close up photo above to see more details about what is smashed underneath? Thanks
Emmanuel[:)]
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Hi Emmanuel, I haven't got Photoshop only Paintshop unfortunately so I've always had in the past to copy and paste pics straight into Word to edit things, contrast and lighten etc. so it's not all that good. However I can email you the original highres copy (300dpi) if you've got Photoshop which presumably is much better ?
Paul
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimagelightened6.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
Hi Emmanuel, I haven't got Photoshop only Paintshop unfortunately so I've always had in the past to copy and paste pics straight into Word to edit things, contrast and lighten etc. so it's not all that good. However I can email you the original highres copy (300dpi) if you've got Photoshop which presumably is much better ?
Paul
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimagelightened6.jpg)
Thanks Paul, please do so, i'll see if I can do better with Photoshop!
Emmanuel[:)]
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Is it my imagination or distortion or is the left front wheel much further back than the right one in this pic ?
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62reverseimage3.jpg)
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Hi Paul, Any idea where and when the crash photos were taken as it looks awfully like an English factory building! Does anyone know who repaired the body and was it here or over in the States? Andy.
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A very bad accident, I hope the driver at the time survived, at least the screen appears unbroken so maybe the cockpit was not too bad. If you look carefully at pictures of the car now in white much of the panel alignment looks poor so I think she would need a good body rebuild and chassis jig to be sure of returning her to prime condition. Luckily anything can be done these days with a large enough wallet. I just hope somebody innocent and uninformed doesn't buy the car and find out later. Looks like she hit front and spun sideways into something? Still if it was panel beaten out then it wasn't that bad a repair job considering the starting point !
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quote:
Originally posted by shep
Hi Paul, Any idea where and when the crash photos were taken as it looks awfully like an English factory building! Does anyone know who repaired the body and was it here or over in the States? Andy.
Hi Andy
I answered a very brief ad. for this car back in about 1978 or 1979 and drove up from London to Chesterfield to see it as the guy said over the phone it was repairable, also it sounded cheap at £2000. I can't remember what labour charges were in those days, but I think the going price for a good second hand one was about £8000 for a convertible and about £5000 for a fastback but even then and I've never been an expert I would have guessed it was only good for spare parts ?? And the only reason I took a camera along was it was a great opportunity to see and record my second 428 in the flesh, however I never heard of or saw the car again so no idea where or who repaired it unfortunately.
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All the remaining pics which I can rescan again individually and in high resolution if necessary. The worrying thing about the big dent in the rear nearside of the car is that I think the fuel tank lies right behind it ?
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280001.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280003.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280005.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280006.jpg)
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All the remaining info available on CF 62 copied across from Register.
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/t16002538/cf-62/
(The wall behind the car here seems similar to the ones at the Thames Ditton factory ?)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/428Register-thumbnailCF62.jpg)
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http://www.collectorcarads.com/AC-428-Frua/4117
1971 AC 428 Frua
Chassis # CF62, matching number engine, original documented miles,sunroof,Right Drive,AC,Auto C3 gearbox,PS, PB,PW. One of 51 Coupes in the total production of 70 cars built on the lengthened Cobra III 427/428 coil sprung chassis. Last restored 13 years ago and a little worn around the edges on the exterior cosmetics but otherwise nice. Asking price reflects this. Tax paid UK and USA. Fair trades and part exchanges considered. Call or email Neil Wood. SOLD
$ 37,500
San Diego, California
Mileage: 39,700
Engine: Ford 428 KR Cobra Jet
Body Type: Coupe
Interior: Black
Exterior: White
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62b.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62a.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF62c.jpg)
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Great pictures Paul, looks like the only virtually untouched panels were the driver's door and possibly the bootlid which looks to have popped open on impact. Back in 1978 probably the factory had new fuel tanks and lots of other parts still available for repairs. Notice in your original photos she had a ( very rare on Frua's ) Webasto slide back sunroof just as on the later pictures after she was painted White. Whether repaired badly or not, good that she is still on the road !
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Hi, I tried to lighten the picture as much as possible. Can't tell for sure, but it looks like the chassis is bent! The left main chassis tube is angled downward and outward.
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/CF62ptshp.jpg)
Don't forget, there is a reason why the car is white, you can't see flaws as well!
E[|)]
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Does anyone know what the car sold for? It was up for sale in Auburn, Indiana at the "Worldwide Auctions" on September 3rd.
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As far as I know it Did not sell:
http://www.wwgauctions.com/auctions/details.cfm?vehicleID=79&id=37
As you can see, they have the same BS story about the car.
It's not in auction results!
Emmanuel[:)]
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If this car has not sold as yet, I hope it will eventually find a good home with someone who will fix it properly. And, I hope, will be purchased at a price commensurate with it's condition.
It's foolish to attempt to sell such a rare car without being forthcoming about it's history. Maybe this car was fixed properly after being wrecked. Saying nothing about it, and providing no documentation, only creates doubt and mistrust.
The next owner would do well to fully document repairs and restoration. Doing it correctly should pay off in the end and make owning the car a real pleasure. And, hopefully, prove to be a good investment.
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CF 62 is now at a dealer in St. Louis, MO
http://www.hymanltd.com/search/details.asp?stockno=4547&suffix=3&recordcount=0#
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Price has jumped $ 45000 since it's August listing on E-Bay ! Still at least somebody has spent some money on buying and fitting front bumpers and they make a big difference to the overall appearance. Panel fit may have been adjusted slightly but I doubt if anything else underneath has been much improved for the price hike.
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It seems that the car sold at the Auburn auction for $110,000 which was above it's estimated value of $90 to $100K. This is why it's now listed for $140K. It's funny because previously it had been listed as not sold. There are things, that are done in the trade to increase market value, where dealers buy each other's cars, that way the car is listed as having been sold at increased price. Not legit but done often with some cars with issues. In addition, There is a shortage of good classic cars at present in the US. I am told by my dealer friends that the good stuff either went to Europe or Asia or is not for sale. Very difficult to find inventory. Again, anyone in the market should do his homework before spending his hard earned money.
Emmanuel[[:)]
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http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C260520
Emmanuel
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I believe this car is written up in the current edition of Sportscar market. I just got it in the mail, but did not read it yet. I have a feeling the article will miss a lot of the info mentioned above. Maybe some of you Frua connoisseurs would feel the urge to write a letter to the editor on this one. If not, would any of you mind me using the information you posted?
Gus
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Go for it Gus! I am planning to do the same. I have not read the article as of yet since I don't subscribe to this magazine, (not one of the most interesting to me). I understand from Jeffrey that it is quite humoristic and since it is based on probably the worst 428 out there, it is likely quite inaccurate. I am sharpening my pencils. I will go and buy the issue tonight, write a response and post a copy on this website over the weekend!
Emmanuel[:D]
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You'd be surprised. I think it is one of the best rags out there. Knowledgeable and intelligently written.
Gus
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You are right, the first part of the article is OK but the second part, especially what was written by the Cumberford fellow is way out of line, he speaks out of his backside describing the various design flows of the car according to him, and all this based on a very flawed example. Very subjective and not very serious in my mind. The fact the car is sagging in the middle, well look right at Jeffrey's car's photo and do you see it sagging in the middle? Ridiculous.
And I am ready to bet he has never seen another Frua. Most people who have think the car are quite handsome.
Anyway, I am working on my response.
Emmanuel
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Let's not make the buyer of this car feel awful. Whoever bought it has a rare car that probably could use some attention, but might be better than supposition on the forum has presumed.
I am surprised that B. Mitchell Carlson (who saw the car at the Auburn Auction) only commented on Paint, glass and leather. But, I suppose, anyone who's not familiar with these cars-- m i g h t --fail to notice panel fit, etc. Or maybe he needed to clean his glasses.
It's actually quite a testimony to how interested SCM is in 428's that they devoted 3 1/2 pages to the car(s). I'm quite sure Keith Martin (the Publisher) likes them. In the mentions they've made over the years, it's always been said that AC 428's are mysteriously undervalued.
Perhaps (when Mr. Carlson writes "I'm sure to be pelted with rocks by AC and Mustang fans the world over") there is a veiled intention to attract controversy. That would be good for them (the magazine), good for 428's, good for AC owners.
The analysis of these cars is pretty much devoted to their appearance. What's missing is the experience of driving a well-sorted car - and that's a moving target, so to speak. At least it has been for me, though I'm getting much nearer to the "finish" line.
SCM is devoted to "the market" for interesting cars. They don't do road tests. They report on market trends and auction results. Their auction coverage is world-wide.
In view of this, Everyone who feels moved to do so should write the magazine. Lets "make their day"! (but be kind - they like AC's). Whenever a good AC shows up in their auction results or profiles, the reporting shows their respect for AC's in general.
Keith Martin's email: keith.martin@sportscarmarket.com
General correspondence: service@sportscarmarket.com
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Sounds very interesting any chance of a scan eventually ?[;)]
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Quite an interesting article after all, I wish another example, a better one would hit auction, they then could write an update. It is a shame that AC never got to build more cars. Nevertheless, it's good for PR. The more people discover these fine automobiles, the better it will be for the cars and all of us. Unlike other Euro/US hybrids, the 428 has direct racing heritage and not the least! Fully independent suspensions and an all metal body, no fiberglass here.
Also, it's engine is closely related to the famous 427 Le Mans winner. Not to mention the fine heritage of the AC brand which of course adds to the pedigree of the 428. A sure win win!
Emmanuel[:)]
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Paul - I have the article, and I will scan it and send it to you. I didn't want to post it, as I expect the good fellows at SCM do occasionally drop into the forum and they probably wouldn't like seeing a current article posted. Their bread and butter, so to speak.
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Thanks a lot Jeff looking forward to it.