AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Ace, Aceca & Greyhound Forum => Topic started by: aex125 on October 22, 2008, 05:28:24
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The previous owner of 1078 cut out the framework forthe nose extension and it is such bad condition I may make a new piece. However, there is a bracket on the one from 1078 that I do not recognize. In the picture below it is the bracket that is in the center of the lower front cross tube. It is not there on AEX125 and I am wondering if it is supposed to be there on 1078 and if so, what is its purpose?
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/289ace/aex1078/noseextension.jpg)
Thanks,
Jay
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Hi Jay,
Looking at the shape of the hole my guess is it's for a starting handle to hand crank the engine. Many European cars even up to the early 60s had provision for one.
This is a link to one on ebay to give you an idea of what it looks like.
John.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MORRIS-MINOR-STARTING-HANDLE_W0QQitemZ280278662108QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280278662108&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
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Jay - definitely for the starting crank. I can send a picture of it in place on AEX127 if it helps, sort of hard to see behind the grill, but it's definitely there. Was probably removed from AEX125 during modifications.
Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by cobham cobra
Hi Jay,
Looking at the shape of the hole my guess is it's for a starting handle to hand crank the engine. Many European cars even up to the early 60s had provision for one.
This is a link to one on ebay to give you an idea of what it looks like.
John.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MORRIS-MINOR-STARTING-HANDLE_W0QQitemZ280278662108QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280278662108&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Jay
John is spot on all Ac & Bristol engined Aces & Acecas had this bracket to support the starting handle, hence the cut out in the Brass and the later ali grills.
Not sure how a starting handle got through the radiator and onto the non existant dog on the nose of the engine, However, keep things correct and fabricate the bracket to ensure everything is authentic.
Will email you in the next couple of days a few pics of various Aces to substantiate the above.
Keith
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While my imagination was running wild as to the purpose for the bracket, being for the manual crank for starting the engine was definitely not one of the thoughts I had. Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried to use it for its intended purpose? As Keith said the radiator would be in the way, so it seems it would not be very functional. Thanks to all for the responses.
Jay
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Keith,
I received your e-mail, but my response to you bounced. My e-mail address is sfm081 at yahoo dot com.
Thanks,
Jay
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On BEX 375, there is a hole in the radiator bottom tank that allows the starter handle to pass through. The engine has a dog built into the large nut that retains the harmonic damper. The dog feature is not easily seen because it is recessed in a tubular guide cover.
All good, but the center steering link is in the way. Turning the wheels a bit to the right on a LHD car may allow just enough clearance between the steering links to engage the starter handle into the engine, but I doubt it. Maybe I'll give it a try this weekend
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Agree with Peter (BEX 375) on every point. It's the same on BEX 316. Not sure about his doubts if it will work with the wheels turned somewhat. Besides cranking, it can be more useful for another thing and that is carefully and accurately turning the engine into the desired positions for checking and adjusting valve clearances. I have used this method several times on my MGA and it works well on that car.
Jerry
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I have actually used a home-made crank thru this bracket and to the engine to turn the engine over as I set the valves, so it definitely serves it's purpose on AEX127!
Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by bex316
Agree with Peter (BEX 375) on every point. It's the same on BEX 316. Not sure about his doubts if it will work with the wheels turned somewhat. Besides cranking, it can be more useful for another thing and that is carefully and accurately turning the engine into the desired positions for checking and adjusting valve clearances. I have used this method several times on my MGA and it works well on that car.
Jerry
Jay, Peter & Jerry
Grovelled under BEX333, yep, your all correct, my radiator has the hole through the bottom section to accomodate the starting handle which would then assist when doing the tappets.
Trouble is my Oil cooler will leak if I put hole through to line up with both the rad and front bracket.
Seriously, Just never really noticed this detail as I fitted the the oil cooler many moons ago. Whilst the front spring and steering geometry obstruct visual contact from inside engine bay.
Hopefully the pics I emailed you, showing the bare frame work and chassis answer many of the questions encountered during the restoration of AEX1078.
Cheers 4 Now
Keith
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Jerry,
Didn't get a chance to try the handle, but took this picture. Not a lot of room around the steering parts.
(http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/peters_017/PA250002.jpg)
Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by pls01
Jerry,
Didn't get a chance to try the handle, but took this picture. Not a lot of room around the steering parts.
(http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/peters_017/PA250002.jpg)
Peter
Peter
Nice clear picture, much cleaner than BEX333, Just one observation, these three ball joints and the steering centre link pin need to been greased every 500 miles or so, even more frequently if used in heavy rain conditions or very dusty conditions, to increase longevity of all joints and maintain best accurate steering.
I know technology has moved on and oils & grease have superior properties these days, but this steering system was designed before we were born and most certainly wears out quicker than rack & pinion steering.
Getting back to Jays initial thread ... ... ...can you or any other reader supply picture and dimensions of the starting handle issued and originally stored on the shelf above the rear axle in each Ace prior to despatch from Thames Ditton? or was it a optional extra ??
Keith
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Keith/Jay - while I don't have one of the cranks, here's a picture of one:
(http://www.classic-motors-online.com/images/Crank.jpg)
and here's a picture of one stored in the boot:
(http://www.classic-motors-online.com/images/handle stored.jpg)
If any member knows where to get one of these handles, please contact me at peter@classic-motors-online.com
Peter
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Jay and Peter...on BEX 402 you have to turn the steering to get the knuckles out of the way. Then it slides all the way in and works as intented. My handle is just as pictured. Dimensions are 36 3/4 x 5 3/4 x 7 inches. What do the orig tools look like...I have a full tool bag but I was told there is a "box".?? Gary
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Gary,
Thanks for letting us know it works as intended by the AC factory, or at least on your car.
Your newly acquired car seems to be quite complete even including the original crank.
About the tools, AFAIK the Ace had a tool roll and the Aceca had a tray fitted in the recess of the spare wheel.
So yours may be original, though having a complete and original set of tools is a real rarity. It may be not all of them are factory issued items. You could ask Ron Leonard for information. He is based in Durango, Colorado and has been handling these cars for ages.
Of course we would love to see a picture of your tool roll and possibly the tools as well.
How about some general pictures of your recently acquired Ace?
Did you already send some to Keith?
Jerry
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Jerry, you are correct regarding the tool roll for the Ace, and the board for the Aceca. I talked to Ron Leonard about this in the past, and he confirmed this fact. And also that the tool rolls for the Aces tended to be 'liberated' before the cars ever left the dealers! I do have an original AC parts list that lists all the tools for the Aces and Acecas (tools differ by engine), if anyone is interested I could scan and post a copy of the page with the tool info.
Peter
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Peter (pls01),
Great picture of the center link and the connections. On you car it looks to be a very tight space to get the crank in. I happened to be working on the center link on 1078 today and so was checking the setup on 125 and found it differs slightly from your car. On 125 the arm going from the steering box to the center link attaches on the bottom side of the center link, not the top as you picture seems to show. If it was attached from the bottom, there would probably be much more clearance, but maybe the steering box mount on AC and Bristol engined cars will not allow for it to be attached on the bottom?
Great discussion on the crank and it uses. I have always used the starter "bump" method or rolled the car while in gear to get the engine into valve adjustment location. Having a crank to do it sounds like a much easier approach.
Jay
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Well, I learned something new. Thanks to Jerry and Gary C. The crank does fit through when the wheels are turned just slightly to the right on this LHD car. I eye-balled it an thought it wouldn't fit so never used it.
(http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/peters_017/PA270004.jpg)
The handle just fits between the ball joints.
(http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/peters_017/PA270007.jpg)
This will make it much easier to set the valves and the static ignition timing.
In the past, I had considered putting the link from steering box into the bottom of the center pivot to gain some room for the handle. However, the hole in the pivot is tapered from the top to mate with the ball joint so it can't be assembled any other way
Thanks again
Peter
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On AEX 734, the crank is stored in the engine compartment. I presume this was the case for all Acecas?
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q80/59Aceca/Acecahandcrank.jpg)
Greg
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That would make sense, since there's no room in the boot on the Acecas. AEX672 is missing it's crank, so can't verify.
Peter
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pls01 Peter,
Interesting item on the taper on your center link being from the top. On 1078 (and I assume 125) the taper is from the bottom. In going through old pictures, it looks like all of the Bristol cars have the knuckle topside, while the AC engined cars (only have 3 to check) have it on the bottom. Was the center link different between the AC and Bristol engined cars?
Jay
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This probably falls into the category of who cares for most people, but I asked Ron Leonard about the drag link attachment to the cenetr link for Bristol and AC engined cars. He said while he had not made a connection between the draglink attachment for the different engined cars, Aces definitely came both ways. He also said the drag link is bent slightly for those cars that attach from the bottom, and since the AC engines had a double crankshaft pulley, it might make sense that their drag link be mounted from the bottom for clearance reasons.
Jay
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I wonder if vulnerability/accessibility of the grease nipple or a higher likelyhood of water getting into an upside down balljoint could have had any influence on it migrating to top fitting?
It does seem logical to mount it from below to allow clearance for the starting handle, with no clearance issues for the Bristol engine retaining the upward fitting , the only other thing I can think of is that it would be preferable to not have the dog-leg in the link arm.
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The thread has taken an winding path since Jay's original post on the nose extension bracket.
Question: When the drag link is on the bottom of the center pivot, are the tie rods also on the bottom of the center pivot?
Putting the drag link on the bottom doesn't change the steering geometry. It does bring the drag link slightly closer to the frame tube and lower control arm mount. A bend may improve this clearance while keeping the ends properly aligned.
Putting the tie rods on the bottom changes the steering geometry and the bump steer characteristics.
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Peter, This thread has definitely taken a windy path, but it has also followed what I have been working on so it has been beneficial to me. I guess its OK to hijack my own thread when needed [;)]. As for the tie rod location, on my cars and the pics I have seen, they remain attached on the top and it is only the drag link that changes position.
Jay
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Peter (Bowman one),
Just a quick resurrection on this thread; you ask about where to get a starting crank. Not sure if it would be the same, but noticed Moss Motors has one for MGAs. They only have a drawing on their web site (P/N 386-100) but it might be close if not exact. Since it is not cheap (around $60), I could go by Moss next week (I work about 2 miles from their local store) and check it out or take a picture if you would like.
Jay