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Messages - cmaddox3

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121
428 Frua Forum / AC 428's elder Italian cousin: Maserati Minstral
« on: July 15, 2007, 18:26:26 »
I'm sure the automotive writer didn't take into consideration AC's main line business at the time.
   
   An interesting coupe on the lift at 11 o'clock in that photo.
   
   Chuck

122
428 Frua Forum / Scans of AC 428 Frua Articles & Ad's...
« on: July 14, 2007, 06:03:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
quote:
I'm interested, for one, if you post it, I'll try to clean up as many creases as I can and host the results.

   Thanks Chuck [:)]
   
   Never needing anything more modern I'm still using ancient Window's '98 together with Paintshop, so would you like me to scan the 4-6 pages of the 428 brochure as it is, or have a go at cleaning it all up first ? Other than a bit grubby the biggest difficulty is a wretched 1/8th inch wide, worn white line right down the middle of the main colour page.

   You're Welcome!
   
   I understand where you're coming from with the Windows 98 machine.  I'm a firm believer in "Old Tech that works is good tech".  In fact I use an HTML editor that was last updated in 1998 to do my website.
   
   I'd be happy to try to restore the scans on my own.  Just scan what you have and I'll see what I can do with it.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
Annoyingly there's still quite a few good clean brochures around too especially at classic car jumble sales, in fact not knowing about this forum I saw one in excellent condition only late last year going for next to nothing ! And let it go sadly.

   
   Well, now we know better!
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3[/i]
   
I suspect all of the above and the first round of the OPEC/post Yom Kippur War Energy Crisis sealed the fate of a 7-Litre two-seater.

   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
I'm sure this had a lot to do with it too. I also remember asking Keith Judd after they'd moved to Summer Road from the old factory and in about 1985/6, why they'd ceased production of the 428. He immediately replied it was because the car wouldn't have passed the crash test, shades presumably of post Ralph Nader etc.... ?

   Well, I know that 1968 ushered in a whole slew of new automotive regulations, not the least of which was a collapsable steering column, which I do not believe the AC 428 possesses.  So this should also be added to the "contributing causes" column for the AC 428's [sadly premature] demise.
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus[/i]
   
Final thought, as Classicus is getting to be a bit of a mouthful each time and to complicate things I'm a Paul as well, Cass is easier I reckon ? [:)]

   Cass would be shorter and as Runt is also a Paul, that would probably be best to keep you two from going "Wha?" when someone says Paul.
   
   =)
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus:
   
Edit: Any idea why all the text keeps on going to the right and off the screen ? Or does it mean yet another new something'y or other ? And for the record I'm more than content to always remain blissfully ignorant of the workings of all things computerised and mechanical ! Odd isn't it ? [:)][/i]
   

   Probably because some fool posted a 1000 pixel wide scan in this thread, and you probably have your screen resolution set to somewhat less than that.
   
   At least that'd be my guess.
   
   Cheers!
   
   Chuck

123
428 Frua Forum / AC 428's elder Italian cousin: Maserati Minstral
« on: July 14, 2007, 05:38:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
Definitely cannot agree with this author's very simplistic statement below!! [:(!] And moribund and some of the rest!! He gets a big [B)] for that too ! [:D]
   
   Because Derek was nobody's fool. He must have known right from the very beginning about the similarities between the 428 and the Mistrale. After a lot of effort and having finally drawn a blank with UK body designers (one might have been "Coventry Bodies" ?), besides saving on huge new design costs perhaps he felt it might not be such a bad thing anyway ?
   
   Chuck, interesting item at the very bottom of the article - Investment Grade C. Any idea how it works ? [:)]
   
   
quote:
As an aside, if you see something that looks like a huge Mistral that someone shoehorned a 428 Ford into, buy it. It's a very rare AC 428. In possibly one of the shiftiest moves of all time, Frua sold nearly the same design to the moribund AC of England. Honestly, did they think no one would notice? (Of course, the wisdom of selling a 7-liter, 7-mpg car in 1968 England, when gas was already $1 a gallon, probably explains their rarity.)
   
   Regardless of Frua's shameless double-dealing, everything about the Mistral says high-dollar Latin exotic. Yet the best Mistral coupe on the planet would be hard pressed to break $45,000, and SCM rates the best Spyders at only $81,000. The answer to the value question is under the hood. Enthusiasts prefer Italian exotics with twelve, rather than six cylinders. What is perfectly okay in an Aston is dismissed in a Maserati.

   
   Hi Cass [as you've indicated elsewhere is an acceptable abbreviation],
   
   On the choice of "moribund" to describe A.C. ...  my Mac's built in Dictionary defines moribund as:
   
   
quote:
Dictionary
   moribund |#712;môr#601;#716;b#601;nd; #712;mär-|
   adjective
   (of a person) at the point of death.
   • (of a thing) in terminal decline; lacking vitality or vigor : the moribund commercial property market.
   DERIVATIVES
   moribundity |#716;môr#601;#712;b#601;nd#601;t#275;; #716;mär-| noun
   ORIGIN early 18th cent.: from Latin moribundus, from mori ‘to die.’
   
   Thesaurus
   moribund
   adjective
   1 the patient was moribund dying, expiring, terminal, on one's deathbed, near death, at death's door, not long for this world. antonym thriving, recovering.
   2 the moribund shipbuilding industry declining, in decline, waning, dying, stagnating, stagnant, crumbling, on its last legs. antonym flourishing.

   
   I suppose I could see where he was getting at, I mean how many 428's did AC produce?  81 or so?  And the ME3000 took a long time to begin production and I suspect it's production numbers were not much greater than the 428's.  So, it's not entirely inaccurate.  I would have tried to be more tactful though.
   
   An aside...  There is currently a ME3000 press release up on ebay...
   
   
   
   
   Which gives an idea of the trials and tribulations of not only getting the ME3000 to market, but also much of it's design philosophy.
   
   On the topic of fuel mileage and fuel costs in 1968...  I visited the UK with my parents in March-April of 1973 and I remember that fuel cost 35p per UK gallon at the time.  At the time the US Dollar was in flux [floating] and the Pound was worth between $2.50 and $2.60 and the Brits were still on English measurements [in fact VAT was implemented in the UK the second day we were there... http://www.chrishobbs.com/1973.htm ] so with a little knowledge of math, one could figure out what the US equivalent in Dollars per US gallon for that date.  As for fuel consumption, while I know that the 428 isn't a fuel miser, given that one can drive the 428 with a minimum of throttle and still pace or outpace most other traffic, one could practice economic driving practices and get respectable fuel economy.  In fact several of the articles I've read on the 428 claim 18-20mpg at 70mph [which is far better than many SUV's can manage today with far smaller engines].  As for the rarity...  as most of the motoring magazines of the time indicated the 428 wasn't priced at an especially competitive price point.  Not that AC could have matched the production schedule of Coventry or General Motors.  But it was priced below what the Mistral was by a good chunk.  And maintenance costs?
   
   Mistral:
   Tune-up Cost $1,500
   Distributor Caps $1,050
   
   $1500!!! for a tune-up???  You could probably source a 428 Short block for not too much more than that.  Over a grand for a Distributor cap?  Gah!
   
   As for "Frua sold nearly the same design to the moribund AC of England. Honestly, did they think no one would notice?"  WTF!?!?  The same fellow designed both, they were designed within a few scant years of one another, what did he expect?  Perhaps for it to look like the Lunar Rover?  The Datsun 240z has a similar look too, did the Japanese copy the Minstral? or the Jensen Interceptor?
   
   I have little idea what Investment Grade C would mean other than if "A" is the best [probably reserved for Ferrari's and similarly performing classics] then the Minstral probably has much less upside.
   
   Still an interesting article even though I pretty much figured where things were going by the time I read the author's last name...
   
   =)
   
   Chuck

124
428 Frua Forum / Scans of AC 428 Frua Articles & Ad's...
« on: July 13, 2007, 02:43:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Thanks Chuck,funnily enough that Kastanienrot English Maroon is my fave color combination; see Classicus' thread.And of course nothing wrong with the 390 FE; a long serving unit in the Ford range.
   
   Paul.[:)]
   

   
   Hi Paul,
   
   I really like a Candy Apple Red/Burgundy main color (leaning towards Rust or Brownish Red) along with a Tan of Khaki interior [as evidenced by my tastes in my current vehicle.  I also like the BRG/Tan combination that Emmanuel has on his example.
   
   And yes, the 390ci plant is a good one as well, but as the adage goes, there is no substiture for Cubic Inches!
   
   Cheers!
   
   Chuck

125
428 Frua Forum / Scans of AC 428 Frua Articles & Ad's...
« on: July 13, 2007, 02:31:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
I love the quote from John Ruskin at the bottom which I'd never seen before. So true !  [:)]

   Me too!  I caught that quote while I was scanning it in.  I might have to appropriate it for a .sig quote at some point.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
Been half wondering if anyone's interested in a scan of an original 428 sales brochure that I got from HR Owens Chelsea showroom back in the Seventies ? Unfortunately it's now pretty creased and worn but unless anyone's got a cleaner copy happy to oblige in a day or two ?

   
   I'm interested, for one, if you post it, I'll try to clean up as many creases as I can and host the results.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
I also remember Owens had a fastback on display and for sale at the time, plus I read somewhere on here only recently that they'd also placed a firm order with the factory for 6 more. But it seems that Signore Pietro had yet another strike on his hands, and then the factory decided it was all getting much too expensive anyway.... Most Italian car makers always seemed to be on strike then too, Alfa and Fiat usually tops amongst them and as their rust proofing was legendary I suppose we can't complain too much either, though as I'd never used an Italian washing machine of that period (roughly par with any English one) I'm really not qualified to say.  [;)]
   

   
   I suspect all of the above and the first round of the OPEC/post Yom Kippur War Energy Crisis sealed the fate of a 7-Litre two-seater.  I'm certain that the ME3000 seemed to be a very sensible route for the firm to follow in the wake of all of the above.
   
   [/i]I just know that if AC had been able to farm out the coachwork somewhere in the UK, and or made a concerted effort to sell to the US the production run would have been much greater.  As I've said many times over the past 30 years.  The AC 428 is a nigh unknown gem of a car that does precious little [if anything] wrong, and nearly everything else better than the competition.  They are an exotic, that's truely exotic, and yet can be serviced nearly anywhere with little or no fuss.
   
   --  Chuck
   
   P.S. I hope to be able to get my hands on some other materials to scan in the next few weeks.....  Soooooo....  Watch this space!

126
428 Frua Forum / Scans of AC 428 Frua Articles & Ad's...
« on: July 12, 2007, 04:21:25 »
Hello,
   
   Back in early 1972 the publication Automobile Quarterly (Volume 10, Number 1) ran a very nice article on a brief history of the marque...
   
   
   
   
   
   As the splash page indicates, the history, which runs some 20 pages, covers the history of AC from it's beginning to the then current AC 428 Frua.  Posting the entire article is probably beyond the scope of this site, however, here is a snap of the page covering the AC 428:
   
   
   
   and a link to a 1920 Pixel wide version of this page:
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AQ_10_1/940/104-105.jpg
   
   Here are links to PDF's of the full article:
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AQ_10_1/940/AQ_10_1_940w.pdf <--- 5.6m 940 Pixel Wide
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AQ_10_1/1920/AQ_10_1_1920w.pdf <--- 10.6m 1920 Pixel Wide.
   
   For those who are interested, The original color of CF 7 [original plate: UPG 428F] seems to be a shade of Greaen not dissimilar from the "Pea Soup Grayish Green" the car in the scan above is painted.  This is not a very attractive color [in my opinion] at all.
   
   I hope folks find the article worthwhile.
   
   --  Chuck

127
428 Frua Forum / Scans of AC 428 Frua Articles & Ad's...
« on: July 12, 2007, 04:07:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Thanks Chuck,I wonder if CF 1 still has that 390 fitted?
   
   Paul.[:)]
   

   Hi Paul,
   
   I would have little idea, save for guesses...  While the HP ratings of the 390 and 428 might be comparable, the 428 would have a torque edge.  While I'd suspect at some point it'd probably be retrofit with a more standard 428 plant, the Pietro-Frua.de site seems to have 390 specs listed for it.
   
   http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac01.htm <--- Then click on Translation and then scroll to bottom.
   
   That's about the extent of my thoughts on the topic.  Also note the lack of side engine vents on this the first production version.  It would seem that AC realized early on the need for more engine ventilation because of heat related issues.
   
   Chuck

128
428 Frua Forum / Draft list of AC 428 Fruas known to date.
« on: July 07, 2007, 03:30:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by administrator
   
The ACOC 428 Register is maintained by Andy Shepherd, the registrar, and is based on the works production records and all information received by the club since.  With all the other registers, it is posted on the Members' Area of this website.  Join the club and you will get access to the definitive data!  The membership form is accessed from the website home page.
   

   
   I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes by volunteering my time on an HTML version.  I remain willing to help/assist with the HTML version of such a list, should that be beneficial...
   
   Cheers!
   
   --  Chuck

129
428 Frua Forum / Fuel and badge photos
« on: July 03, 2007, 05:56:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by cliffordl
   

   

   
   Hiya Clifford!
   
   Thanks for posting the pictures of YPF 409G ...  I had always assumed that was how the Full filler was accomplished on the Convertible's but I had never actually known as I've never seen a picture of them before nor had I ever seen a Convertible in person.
   
   I'd also be interested in knowing the VIN number YPPF 409G because it's color looks nearly identical to the color the one I own [CF 7] was painted.  I'm windering if perhaps this became a standard color suggested by the factory.
   
   Thanks for sharing them!
   
   --  Chuck

130
428 Frua Forum / Draft list of AC 428 Fruas known to date.
« on: July 02, 2007, 02:21:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
Thanks Chuck [:)]
   
   As this could well become a long term thing and on the Club's website plus not being a member (or 428 expert!), I'm only too happy for someone from the Club to take it over at the beginning if required ?
   

   Well, [hell!] I'm not a member either ...  A fortnight ago I didn't even know of this forum...  So, I'm not a member either.  I'd be happy to join though if someone would point me in the right direction.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
Perhaps along existing Club registry formats and lines which I know nothing of especially as I won't always be able to spare the time ? Admin perhaps ?
   
   Thanks [:)]
   

   Well, I do have some experience with doing tables in HTML...
   
   
   Dimensions of Selected Omega Speedmaster's Table:
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/dimensions_selected_omega.html
   
   
   OnTheDash.com's MOAT [Mother Of All Tables]:
   http://onthedash.com/Guide/Master_Reference.php4
   
   I'd be happy to work up something similar for the AC 428 Frua's if it would be helpful.  I'd even host it on my site.
   
   Let me know what you think...
   
   --  Chuck

131
428 Frua Forum / Draft list of AC 428 Fruas known to date.
« on: July 01, 2007, 05:02:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
I know Andy is preparing a club list, however out of interest I'd also started putting my own personal rough list together some time ago based on what I'd been able to find and cull off both the Forum and the Net as well. Whilst it's still very crude and basic I've just realised that with all the resident knowledge and expertise available on here it might perhaps be of some help to the Forum as well, eventually creating a useful quick reference list of the total number of fastbacks and convertibles known worldwide at any given moment. Unfortunately I've just not had the time to go through all the Forum posts yet as there have been so many, so apologies to anyone if I've missed anything.
   
   I can always delete it if no-one's interested ?
   
   My main sources so far :
   
   1. Pietro Frua webpage
   http://www.pietro-frua.de/1965_ac.htm
   
   2. The Forum
   
   Note: "I know that five 428s have definately been 'converted'". Trevor Legate 6th Feb. 2007 posted in "How Many 428 Fruas Left ?
   ________________________________________________________
   
   List of AC 428 Fruas known to date :
   
   7. CF 7. UPG 428F [Former UPG 428F...  A different number is on the car now]
   Fastback.

   
   You may wish to append [Factory Press Car] I own it [along with my sister...  Chicago area.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
   
27.  ?
   
   28.  ?
   
   29.  CFX 29. ?
   J. Jones. In America
   
   30.  ?

   
   I remember seeing [some 30 years ago] a letter to my father from the A.C. factory stating that two of these cars [in the 27-30 range] were exported to North America with the odd numbered one's going to either the USA and the Even's going to Canada or vice-versa.  I have no idea where that paper is, but I strongly doubt it was ever thrown away.  I will keep an eye out for it, though.  One of these four cars I saw and rode in in the 1976-1978 epoch, it was a gray fastback in the Oakville/Greater Toronto Ontario area.  At that time, it was in great mechanical shape, and I would suspect with a little detailing would have cleaned up to be in very good condition.  But that was 30 years ago.
   
   It occurs to me if the gentleman who owns #29 could share his example's particulars, we might be able to pencil in which numbers went to which country.  I suppose we could assume it was one of the one's sent to America, but I don't think that this is a save assumption considering how many now seem to have migrated to different countries/continents .
   
   Unfortunately, that's all my memory is able to assist at this time.  If I unearth that letter from the factory, I'll post a scan of it.
   
   Cheers and Please keep at this!
   
   --  Chuck

132
428 Frua Forum / UPG428F, Factory press car
« on: June 27, 2007, 05:12:53 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck, I can see the 'understated'feel of the 105.003 appearance you're stressing, truly classic, and what an amazing story re Edward White's Speedmaster.

   
   Hi Paul,
   
   In my opinion, if one can only have one, that's the model to have.  Often we in the chronograph collecting community compare various brands and models to cars.  Most often, the Speedmaster is compared to the Porsche 911.  Mainly because the Speedmaster is celebrating it's 50th year of continous production this year and for the most part the main model which has become known as "the moonwatch" hasn't changed to a great extent in those fifty years.  The 911 has been in production for over 40 years and if one were to drive a 1964 or 1965 model and see a brand new 911 going the other way, they'd recognize one another.  Both designs have stood the test of time.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
For the T - Bird to outdrag a Torino 390 GT certainly is a powerful indication of Ford underrating the output of some of the performance engines,

   
   Well, in my defense, I was only 16 years old at the time, and I hadn't had a lot of experience on the road (even thought I had been running construction equipment since I was 10).  My Dad had been driving decades and probably had 60,000 miles behind the wheel of that car (I probably had a couple thousand behind the Torino's wheel).  The tires on my Torino were probably half again as wide as the Wide Whites on the Brown Bird, so the Bird wouldn't have had as much slicing through the puddles while my clod-hoppers would skip over the top like a rock on a pond.  Now if we were on some corners, maybe I would have been able to catch up some.  Still, the only other times I had someone walk away from me in that Torino were a pair of 455's...  A Olds Toronado on a sloppy road, and one of my lifelong friend's 1971 GTO Judge 455 with Ram Air IV heads.  I know I got beat other times too, on a straight track but not so handily.  I couldn't keep up with a Sunbeam Tiger on a curvey patch of road either, but I suppose that's not a big surprise either!
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
someone on the 'CobraClub' forum advised me that the 428  'Police Interceptor'rated at 345 horse,was reckoned at the time to produce a genuine unstressed 360 -370 which sounds more like it, but of course as you mentioned, TORQUE is the attraction with all these leviathans, my 396 Windsor made 460 ft/lbs on the dyno, goodness knows what kind of reading that tunnel port 427 gave..!

   
   Well, I can tell you that the Blown Bird was strong and would keep on getting stronger as the blower did it's thing.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Paul.[:)]
   

   
   Cheers!
   
   Chuck

133
428 Frua Forum / UPG428F, Factory press car
« on: June 26, 2007, 04:48:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck,these are restored by yourself, or in original condition?

   
   As far as I've been able to tell both examples are in original condition as shipped from the factory in Bienne Switzerland back in the day.  I'm sure both watches have been serviced through the years and may well have certain "wear" parts replaced much as any of us would replace a brake pad, wiper blades or tires.
   
   I have had the 105.003 overhauled by a trusted watchmaker as it had "Chrono Hour Creep" where the Chronograph Hour hand will creep forward even when the chronograph is stopped.  One can actually see in the picture I had included in my previous post that the hour register isn't zeroed.  That's CHC...  It's been fixed since I took that snap.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Whatever,they are remarkable,

   
   Thank you.  I feel the same way about them.  The 105.003 [the second one] in particular is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the "Speedmaster experience".  This is the same model that Ed White wore when he did his Space walk on Gemini 4 and later survived the Apollo 1 fire.
   
   
   
   
   The reason I prefer the 105.003 is that it's very plain compared with the models before and after it.  It's the cleanest and plainest Speedmaster ever made and it has a quiet elegance about it.  Like a Movado Museum watch, it's just plainly elegant.  It doesn't need to shout about what it is.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
if you'll pardon my lowering the tone of the conversation, what kind of value could these command now?

   
   Well, It's really hard to say with the CK2915-3 [the one with the silver colored main hands] as they are pretty uncommon and don't show up on eBay especially often.  The "Dash-1" and "Dash-2"'s are the real pricey one's which have "Broad Arrow" hands.
   
   
   
   Now that watch [which is a CK2915-1 or what many of us collector's will call a "Dash One" is probably worth anywhere from, Hmmm...  I'd say about $12,000 up to about....  [fumbling for the auction final results...]  Well, they had two Dash-Two's sell at the big Omegamania Auction back in April:  106,200 Swiss Francs and 94,400 Swiss Francs respectively...  That's 64,231.28 Euro and 57,094.47 Euro respectively.
   
   However the highest price I've seen for a Dash One or Dash Two on eBay was $26,000 or so...  I archived the auction for future reference:
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/26100_CK2915_ebay.pdf
   
   But that was several years ago.
   
   My Dash Three example, I paid $3,300 for it back in the spring of 2003 and it's probably worth something closer to what the CK2998's went for at Omega mania which was...  30,680 Swiss Francs and 21,240 Swiss Francs  or 18,555.70 Euro and 12,846.26 Euro respectively.  The highest price I've seen on eBay for a CK2998 was about $14,000 fairly recently:
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/auctions/14100USD_CK2998_230024151138/eBay_CK2998_1959_OMEGA_SPEEDMASTER_230024151138.pdf
   
   But that one had EVERY SPECK of original boxes and papers that a collector could ever dream of.  I only have the watch, so mine wouldn't be worth quite that much, even though my dial is in better "non-turned" condition.  "Turned means the dial has changed from it's original black to a Chocolate Brown...
   
   
   
   But it has an original bracelet.  Mine is in much better shape though...  So maybe it wouldn't be too far behind.
   
   As for the 105.003's.  They are quite a bit more common...  They can probably still be had in the $3,500 to $6,000 range without too much scrounging.  But the Omegamania auction was like Tsunami in the watch collecting world and we're still trying to make sense of where values will settle out to be in the future.
   
   I guess this goes to show that there certainly is a lot to the Speedmaster topic.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Back to CF 7,this has been inspiring, told my wife:"I'm speaking to the owner of a car I've loved since I was thirteen, in 1968!" Also, great that Mike and yourself are in contact, power to the internet!

   
   The internet is an amazing thing.  I have people I consider friends in about 20-25 countries and every week I get unsolicited emails from at least a dozen countries seeking my assistance or advice on chronograph topics.  It amazes me that a Department of Defense program meant to ensure communications after a nuclear war has probably done more to bring the world closer together than all of the Peace marches combined!
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
The evolution of the Ford 'Total Performance' lineage though the 1960's V-8s has always inspired me, like most enthusiasts I admire all kinds of Yankee V-8s but the Ford small block for example sounds SO different to a Chev; what with the firing order etc., if we listen to the chase in 'Bullitt', McQueen's 390GT Muzzie sounds nothing like the Charger R/T noise,apparently the soundtrack we hear there is NOT the 390 FE, but a GT40 soundtrack overlaid..! (Small or Big Block, I know not.)

   
   Well of course, the 390 isn't a small block Ford.  It's a FE just like the 406, 427 and 428...  The 428 is really just a bored and stroked 390 for the most part.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
The Supercharged 312 in your father's T-Bird is clearly the start of the Y Block performance options, an inspired period for Ford!

   
   Actually, it probably was the pinacle of the Y-Block development.  I don't believe that Ford ever shipped a more powerful version of the Y-Block.  The Dual-Quad E-Bird's developed 275 and 285 HP [Manual/Auto] and the Supercharged version was rated at 300hp.  But I personally believe that to be conservative.  My dad certainly walked away from me in my 1969 Torino GT Convertable [390] during a driving Thunderstorm (him on Bias ply Wide-Whitewalls, me on brand new BF Goodrich T/A Radials.]...
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
I'm wondering if anyone on here has one of these rumoured early Fruas with a 427 fitted from new..?

   
   It's possible I suppose.  I suspect that CF1 was a 427 as the really early articles I've seen call the car the AC 427.  But I don't really know.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Paul.[:)]
   
   Paul.
   

   
   Again, it's been a pleasure chatting P!
   
   --  Chuck

134
428 Frua Forum / UPG428F, Factory press car
« on: June 25, 2007, 05:17:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Stunning, Chuck that Omega is perfection.

   
   Hiya again Paul,
   
   Actually my 1967 "Pre-Moon" Speedy is a bit on the rough side compared with my others, even my older ones...
   
   My c.1959 CK2915-3:
   
   
   And my 105.003-65 are in better shape:
   
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
I have read a couple of tests on Cobra 427 with Holman & Moody tunnel port heads, output from those engines must have been in the region of 500 horse, didn't realise porting was THAT big!

   
   Well, I can't remember if the claimed figure was 515 or 575 Horses to be honest, and that may have been gross not net.  But I doubt many many had Power Steering or Air Conditioning installed!
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Classicus, that Autocar test is another gem, CF 7 was quite a busy car at that time!"Under way the AC 428 responds to the throttle like no other car we know"..!Great stuff!
   
   Paul.[:)]
   

   
   They sure know/knew how to smith words!
   
   --  Chuck

135
428 Frua Forum / UPG428F, Factory press car
« on: June 24, 2007, 06:27:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Chuck,I remember that 'T' shifter on a '70 Muzzie I owned in '79;and can imagine how awkward it might be on a rhd,though of course parking is the only time you'd touch it,I assume with 480 ft/lbs you leave it in 'D' all day long?

   
   Well...  I would imagine that it would be pretty awkward if the shifter and spring were new and stiff.  Fortunately, the one on CF 7 is pretty well worked in and it possible that someone at some time took it apart because it doesn't take a great deal of effort to push it in with one's pinky.
   
   As for times when one would use it...  In my experience about the only times one would want to use it would be if:
   
   a] one wanted to control shifting points from start,
   b] one wanted to force an immediate gear kick-down for acceleration whilst underway.
   c] one wanted to use the engine for "Compression braking".
   
   There would probably be a bit of an advantage of taking matters in to one's own hand on those.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
I've noticed through the years that the motor was rated at '345 bhp gross',this seems a bit low bearing in mind the 10.5 :1 c/r..?

   
   Hmmm...  with the 428 torque is really this plant's strong suit, not brute horsepower.  If I remember correctly, the 428 has a longer stroke/smaller bore than the 427 so it's not as "free-revvin'" of an engine, which probably also explains the AC 428's comparatively modest top end: lower Redline and only three gears.  Considering how much more slippery and "swoopy" the Frua (especially the coupe) compared to a Cobra 427 one would think that a Frua Coupe would have it all over the "MGB on Steroids" shape of the Cobras.  But the 428/C6 combo doesn't have the long legs to go along with the slippery shape.
   
   But we'll always have better fuel economy!
   
   Among other things the real "trick" part of the 427, at least in my opinion, are the cross-bolted mains.  They really add to the sturdiness of the bottom end of the 427's block.  A far superior arrangement to "traditional" 4-bolt mains.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Were the iron heads of much smaller porting than today's alluminum items? As Emmanuel's car shows, this engine has masses of potential,I just would have guessed nearer 400 horse as installed in the AC 428.

   
   Well, truth be told, since we've had the car about the only thing we've done to it was to change the main bearing's and put in a radio.  So I really wouldn't know first hand how the heads/headers would compare with modern parts.  However, at one time my Dad had a 427 Tunnel Port engine and the difference between it's ports [both intake and exhaust] was simply mind-blowing.
   
   To explain the difference [as best as I can remember 20 years later] one could take an Eisenhower Silver Dollar [about the same size as the older pattern 10p or 50p coin] and bridge over the ports on a standard medium-riser/side oiler 427.  With the Tunnel-port there was a solid 5-10mm all around the edge of the coin...  [again that's as best as I can remember]
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
As a VERY enhusiastic non-owner, a big thank you from me to everyone on these forums, a fount of knowledge and great to know that many others love these cars!

   
   Well, I was pretty enthusiastic about the AC since I found out about it, still am!  My father though was the real gearhead in the family and he knew a lot more about the nuts and bolts of the why's and wherefores on the mechanics.  He was an old school hot-rodder.
   
   As I mentioned previously, my collecting focus is on chronographs.
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/cm3articles.html
   
   When that is the topic, I get to be a little more useful as a resource personally.
   
   For example...  Speaking of 1967's...  Here are a couple of other 1967's...
   
   
   http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/competitors/autavia_v_speedmaster/autavia_v72_v_speedy_c321.html
   
   But I'll try to share when and where I can around here.  I too am exceedingly happy to have fount a place to talk and learn more about the AC Frua's...  Back in the 1970's we had thought that [at that time] there may have been as few as 6 or so AC 428's in the Weastern hemisphere.  It nice to know a few others have made it over here.  It'd be great to have a reunion some day.
   
   
quote:
Originally posted by runt
   
Paul/runt.[:)]
   

   
   It has been a pleasure conversing Paul...
   
   --  Chuck

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