AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: Old Crock on June 07, 2012, 21:20:49
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Can someone enlighten me and please tell me from which model this AC badge is? Thanks in advance!
(http:// http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/Badge1.jpg )
(http:// http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/Badge3.jpg )
(http:// http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/Badge2.jpg )
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Are you wanting to sell this?
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quote:
Originally posted by Spikey-fish
Are you wanting to sell this?
The opposite. I bidded on this badge at auction yesterday. The owner had entered some very rare and genuine automobile badges, from the likes of Mathis and Brennabor, and this AC badge was advertised as being from the 1930/40s. I thought it was earlier as AC used this style of script particularly in the Edwardian period (pre 1920), but I was unsure if they may have used it subsequently, even for nostalgic reasons, and maybe not as a radiator logo. I have photos showing similar style badges on the Fivet model and I found a photo of a unique radiator mascot, probably 1920’s, of a bear holding the exact same badge (see below).
Apart from the posting above I emailed two other AC owners who both thought the badge ‘very old’ but could not be more precise. Another long-standing AC devotee has replied saying a 1921 car that he once owned had a badge ‘very much like this one’.
I left a bid of (up to) £100, but I now know the bidding powered past this and the final price, with tax added, was more than £150, so two people, or more, obviously knew something about this badge that I didn’t, whether that was its rarity, collectability, I don’t know….
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/ACbadge4.JPG)
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A little snippet to add.
I was told the following last night:
A few years back groundwork was taking place at the site of the Royal Victoria Military Hospital at Netley, Southampton. They unearthed many army cap badges, buttons, old coins and, guess what.....the badge below! The hospital was used for some 100 years so this doesn’t help with dating the badge.
They say it was curved, made of brass or copper, and they assumed it had come from a radiator. It was sent to the museum of the Army Medical Services.
(http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/badge-auto-carriers-car.jpg)
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Is this prior art? to the use by Auto Carriers? some cap badges have similar script!
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin A Woolmer
Is this prior art? to the use by Auto Carriers? some cap badges have similar script!
Hi Robin
Much too big for the likes of a cap badge - this one's nearly five inches diameter! (See pic 2). If used prior to AutoCarriers then the famous AC logo had been stolen all along....perish the thought.
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There does seems something Art Nouveau about it which ran from the late 19th C. to the early 20th if it's any help....
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=art+nouveau+style&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=VfHUT9uTDozS8QOn3tySAw&sqi=2&ved=0CJMBELAE&biw=1024&bih=630
http://www.gaudiallgaudi.com/A0003.htm
Also looking at the two elongated holes on the left of the badge and the one in the upper half of the letter "A", there's some similarity here I think....
(http://www.engravingglossary.com/images/Art%20Nouveau.jpg)
(http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/badge-auto-carriers-car.jpg)
....especially in this garden seat pic below where the same elongated metal hole at the top of the armrest joins the top wooden bar across the back of the seat itself.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnnyenglish/3194142827/
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3087/3194142827_f6c8c6dbe5_z.jpg)
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As this was found on a military site it may have associations therefore with it , in the badge of the 'Royal Armoured Corps'the A & C are as the AC company Logo, so we may be seeing prior art! & therefore not be unique to the AC Company!!
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Classicus – Here’s a photo of an enamel sign I have. I show it as (a) it’s in the Art Nouveau style, to which you refer, with its colours and scrolls and shows the rounded corners to the triangle of the letter ‘A’ (b) it was for the Automobile Club of Great Britain and Ireland, which used predominantly the letters AC in their logo, as can be seen. The ACGBI received its Royal warrant in 1907, becoming the Royal Automobile Club (RAC), so this sign predates that.
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/SignACGBI_B.JPG)
Robin – I started looking into other companies, and societies, that used the letters AC (hence the above), though I’m convinced these badges would have been used, somewhere, by AC Cars. The digging at the hospital retrieved other items not directly military, for example filigree, a ladies brooch, a sewing box, bedpost knobs etc. Old rubbish tips can be a treasure trove of bygones!
Finally, some photos of the AC logo from the period 1911 to early 20’s. The first, Auto-Carrier’s logo, note the hyphen between the ‘A’ and ‘C’ that was carried through. The second is an advert for the AC Fivet, with the third showing the AC logo from that ad, and lastly, the nickel radiator badge of an early 20’s car.
I think these show the badges we have discussed must be linked to AC Cars, but where used and precisely when, I don’t know. All three are made of brass/copper and show no nickel but stippling between the letters, which may be relevant. The one that started the correspondence is shown for comparison.
All the best
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/ac1911.jpg)
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/ac1.jpg)
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/AC2.JPG)
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/P1090167.JPG)
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/Badge1b.JPG)
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I was hoping that if we could proove prior art that it would improve our case to have our Club Logo back, this though migh be a long shot but what is correct is that the basic form of the letters was widely used, maybe i should put it on the back burner!
Robin
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I Like the way you think, Robin... But i thought the point was the club did not have the funds to get into this battle and therefore conceded.
Gus
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Gus
If Prior Art could be proven the cost to challenge AC should be quite small & hopefully not come to that with careful handling, there is still great benefit for both parties in working together & not having conflict.
Robin
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Well I for one am hoping that a new 'entente cordiale' could be hammered out between the new heads of The Club & AC respectively, as to maintain the original Club logo is mutually beneficial to the Club & AC themselves, but we digress, that is an issue for another time, I think.
Back to this badge. The 'Gladman & Norman' cast ACOC badges had a similar stippling or hatching effect which was part of the enamelling process, although not visible in the white areas, it gives an almost metallic appearance to the red area, as can be seen on this damaged badge.
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/KGrHqJloE-39DRjLcBPNvGsOjw60_3.jpg)
So, maybe this badge was originally enamelled?
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Nik's correct in saying that the dappling effect is consistent with the AC logo badge. It is done this way so that the enamel has a surface on wich to grip.
Enamel is very basically ground glass which is repeatedly heated and applied, heated and applied until the required thickness is reached. It is then levelled with pumice and polished.
The difference between these badges though is that the older badge would have been all one colour. There are no defining bars between the letters and the surround, and enamel cannot be applied in varying colours without divisions between. The colours would just run.
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Thanks REV. Wouldn`t it look lovely with a yellow or golden enamel, like the one in Crock`s example:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/ac-1.jpg)
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Nik and Robin: Agree. Maybe Shep can open a new conversation....
Gus
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Do you mean resurrect the original logo as the new club logo?
Here it is complete with wreath:
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/ac1911b.JPG)
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Sorry, Crock, I just meant the one you bid on would like nice with gold enamel!
Too much discussion of the logo issue in open forum could jeopardise any future developments, and I believe THIS STATEMENT (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1848") is still valid.
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Nik / Rev / Robin /.. Gus / Old Crock and all .[:)]
Lets hope one day in the not too distant future AC Cars etc etc
step back and review the stupid corporate suicide situation they have created and agree for a token ( £1.00) licence fee so that AC Owners Club can Continue to use they AC logo they have used and promoted since 1949.
I sent a Le Mans Classic 2010 Rally Plaque to Alan Lubinski requesting that I can continue to use The AC / ACOC logo as I have for the past 12 years, Received a very prompt negative response, Can't even use the Art Nouveau style Logo as it represents ACedes [:(]
So counter productive, reminds one of Gerald Ratner and his contempt for his Customers.
So many Companies Worldwide plagiarise the AC Logo for financial gain[:(], Where as The ACOC have infact been the number ONE Ambassador in promoting the AC Marque[:)], Always there to help and support AC Owners and enthusiasts alike [;)].
One day hopefully ACOC revert back to displaying the AC logo so proudly displayed on the front and the four wheel spinners on all our AC's, In the meantime this years Le Mans Classic Rally Plaques will display a non Original AC logo.
Sorry to detract from the initial thread, a great AC badge in the Art Nouveau style, Could well have been created by Alphonse Mucha himself in the late 1890s, deserves to be displayed on the radiator of a Vintage AC..[;)]
Keith.
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The earliest use of the A-C logo
Action, August 1990, had as its cover the advert below. Stuart Wallace had sent it, and it was believed the first use commercially of the AC roundel. The magazine was 'The Motor Cycle', and it's dated December 1909.
The Sociable was first launched 1905/1906 (depending on reference), and was called the 'A & A motor carrier', the company being 'Autocar and Accessories Ltd', but 'Auto-Carrier' was quickly coined.
Other earlier adverts, than that below, for the Sociable did use 'A-C' and 'Auto-Carrier' but no logo. Note the interesting wording to this advert - The mighty atom was the tit-bit of the Stanley show!
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/EarliestACbadge_Small.JPG)
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
Nik / Rev / Robin /.. Gus / Old Crock and all .[:)]
Lets hope one day in the not too distant future AC Cars/ Heritage etc etc step back and review to stupid situation corporate suicide situation they have created and agree for a token ( £1.00) licence fee that AC Owners Club can Continue to use they AC logo they have used and promoted since 1949.
I sent a Le Mans Classic 2010 Rally Plaque to Alan Lubinski requesting that I can continue to use The AC / ACOC logo as I have for the past 12 years, Received a very prompt negative response, Can't even use the Art Nouveau style Logo as it represents ACedes [:(]
So counter productive, reminds one of Gerald Ratner and his contempt to his Customers.
So many Companies Worldwide plagiarise the AC Logo for financial gain[:(], Where as The ACOC have infact been the number ONE Ambassador in promoting the AC Marque[:)], Always there to help and support AC Owners and enthusiasts alike [;)].
One day hopefully ACOC displayedrevert back to displaying the AC logo so proudly on the front and the four wheel spinners on all our AC's, In the meantime this years Le Mans Classic Rally Plaques will display a non Original AC logo.
Sorry to detract from the initial thread, a great AC badge in the Art Nouveau style, Could well have been created by Alphonse Mucha himself in the late 1890s, deserves to be displayed on the radiator of a Vintage AC..[;)]
Keith.
I think the issue with the badge is with Alan Lubinsky alone. I doubt if Steve Gray has much of a say in the matter. That being the case, I think it would be beneficial for the ACOC to rebuild the links with AC Heritage that were in place a few years back. At Brooklands this weekend, it would have been nice to have seen the Owners Club displaying their cars opposite the AC Heritage facility. As it was there was a display of Mustangs - nice but not ACs.
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The forum being what it may, an open forum without censorship, it's contributors should exercise some restraint sometime when it comes to open criticism of what is or what is left over of AC.
I know, I'll get some crap for this, but place yourself in their shoes and question whether you would endorse this with your Logo/brand (essentially the only thing tangible left over from the AC days)
AC is not what it was. I think it will go a long way if membership would accept that fact and move on. It really does not help if people bash the current state of affairs, other than that it might make you feel better. In the end it changes nothing and as long as we don't own the brand, it is not our decision as to what it's future and affairs may be. Simple as that. Steve Grey should be credited for investing the way he does in the brand and the club would do well by itself to embrace him and AC Heritage. Same with Lubinski. I don't know what the conversations have been and I'm sure there was a level "unreasonableness", but if we are serious about a closer relationship and having the approval to use the AC logo, than it would not hurt to reach out and as members refrain from disparaging remarks... Of course AC should be "man" enough to understand that the club is no marketing extension of the company and should not expect only adulation...
So, beer and popcorn anyone, while we watch this one explode?
Gus
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Reasons to be cheerful!
AC Heritage, the successor to Autokraft - see my photos at Brooklands [:)]
AC Mk VI - a high quality modern interpretation of the Cobra as confirmed by Terry Webb at Geneva in March.
AC Mk11 Classic - the grp car to be built in South Africa is a high quality product developed by Riverside Racers with Hi Tech (of course based on AC's own design!) which will give AC some much needed volume if they are to support a dealer network.
AC 378GT Zagato - Having seen this is in the grp on Saturday, I can confirm this is a superb design. All it needs now is a higher quality interior which will be ready when the car goes on sale in the Autumn.
So we're a long way from the Mk V and Malta![;)]