Frua Registry

[Emmanueld]

I am posting this new thread because I think we need to start a very elaborate registry with the club. The AC 428 Frua is a great classic car. It's got everything, It's very rare, it has racing history, it has great part availability (at least for the drive-train), it's very reliable but it's not well known.
   
   As Jeffrey mentioned before, Paul's (Classicus) registry is a good start and should probably be moved to the member part of the club. If he agrees of course. Then the history of the cars could be updated by each owner with sales receipts for service, repairs, restorations, modifications  Etc. Even photographs to document what was done to each car and when. This of course would greatly benefit owners who were forthcoming with information and penalize cars not listed.
   
   I think a detailed registry will greatly benefit the Frua market. People are reluctant to spend big money in a car about which they know nothing. Just like the one on E-Bay at present, I know enough about these cars by now that there probably is quite a bit of corrosion, it would surely take more than $50,000 to make this car a show winner and most of it in bodywork. (I am very conservative here) $20,000 just for a new leather interior.
   
   I believe the Shelby Cobra Registry has been a great help in the Cobra market. No one in their right mind will spend big money in a Cobra or even a Shelby Mustang if it's not listed. For these cars, it's just too easy to spend big money and find out later on you got scammed with a fake.
   
   For the Frua, it's more a question of condition, where the car has lived, if corrosion repairs were performed, were they done properly or was the car just filled with lead or Bondo. Are there photos of a restoration for example. If a full and detailed history is available to an eventual purchaser, he will feel much better about spending big money. Also a car which has lived in a dry climate and has been cared for meticulously should benefit as well.
   
   The word is TRANSPARENCY, I have met a lot of Cobra guys who would love a 428 but the lack of information and knowledge about the cars scares them. We have gone a long way already to inform people on our cars and it has worked, I think this is why prices are rising, I think we need to do more and create a very good registry.
   
   Please give you opinion on this matter.
   
   Emmanuel[]

[J Jones]

As proof-of-concept, please click on the link below for photographs taken of CF62 (currently for sale on Ebay-see thread) in 1979. Scroll half-way down the page.
   Accidents happen, and damage can be repaired. Proof of the quality of repair is essential to making an educated purchase.
   While having a readily accessible data base for the tiny number of 428's might not be convenient for some, it would certainly help keep everyone honest, and improve the reputation and value of the cars.
   
   http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=2

[Emmanueld]

Thats exactly my point, it's a gamble at $95K, if it's straight then repairs will be like I said above, if the chassis is bent or gone then the sky is the limit. Straightening the chassis means building a cage in the car or a jig, cutting the chassis off, lifting the body off, straightening the chassis and probably sleeving it and re-welding the body to the chassis. A very big job involving huge labor costs. Such repairs could easily cost $120K or more. Sleeving is done to Cobras on a routine basis. On a Cobra, the alloy skin comes off easily (By an experienced Cobra restorer) then you are left with the tubular cage which is easy to remove and reinstall.
   
   Emmanuel

[J Jones]

Re: CF62. The car now apparently sold for $95,000.
   
   I doubt very much a bent chassis could be sleeved. I'm fairly sure sleeving is done to strengthen Series 1 and 2 chassis with smaller (2 1/2, 3 inch?) tubes. The series 3 had 4" tubes, strong enough to carry the stresses and improve the torsional rigidity of higher horsepower, heavier and faster cars.
   
   If this car does have a bent chassis, sleeves won't help it.
   
   The damage seems to have been bad news for the body panels, but not necessarily fatal for the base structure. The Big Block chassis is very strong, so it might still be straight. (if not, Mike McCluskey makes big block chassis. He has a jig, and I'm sure he could straighten it)
   
   The square tubes are probably repairable/replaceable. But to repair the panels really well will be a big job.
   
   At least, as Emmanuel has pointed out, the car seems to be complete. New bumpers are available. The interior is intact. It seems to have all the hard-to-find bits.
   
   It will need a master metalsmith. And we know who can do this, having done it already on Emmanuel's car.
   
   If the car remains in the USA, it should be sent off to McCluskey, and to Stone's metal shop. I doubt there's anyone else in the USA that has better recent acquaintance with 428's. Even Jim Feldman is unlikely to have sub-contractors as familiar with the Frua body, structure, parts or with the mechanical expertise to bring this bad boy back to life.
   
   Or.. maybe the car was competently fixed the first time around. Wouldn't it be nice to know? Why there should be a Frua registry.

[Emmanueld]

Jeffrey, the 4" chassis gets sleeved as well,  to straighten a bent Cobra chassis, some tubes get heated and pulled, on the big 4", they get cut and new sections get welded to the chassis. The whole thing then gets sleeved for rigidity.. Same thing if the frame is corroded, corroded sections are cut out then the frame is sleeved. It's all done on a jig.
   
    The difficult part in straightening a car like that is that every panel has shifted. On a Cobra it's easier since you can take the whole thin apart easily, the skin is riveted to the tubular cage. Once the skin is off the cage can be straightened or replaced in sections.  On the Frua, once the chassis is straight, one would have to rebuild the car probably  in sections starting with the firewall section and then the aft sections would the get welded to the frame with  the doors installed to set the proper door gap. This is a huge amount of work, but it's probably the only way to do it because of the huge chassis. On most modern cars, the uni body gets attached to a machine which has big hydraulic cylinders and the car gets pulled back and stretched until it's straight. When repaired, there are always traces and thats what one tries to look for when buying a used car. On the Frua I am not sure you can get good results that way because of the huge frame.
   
   Let's get back to the creation of a registry!
   
   
   Emmanuel[]

[cliffordl]

Andy Shepherd is the 428 registrar for the Club. Classicus has the register of publicly known models with photos. Is your proposal to record who restored what, how and when? If so then equally the totally unrestored and original cars should be mentioned.
   It would certainly be nice to see the original supply details from AC - who were the first owners with what options etc.

[Emmanueld]

Yes of course I agree, the more info the better!
   
   Emmanuel

[concrete8]

There seems to be alot of talk about the CF 62 l have heard according to rumors, these photos have surfaced before with different no plates each time (photoshopped)
   Can anyone actually confirm this is CF62 or has anyone ever seen these photos with different no plates???

[Classicus]

Hi
   
   I took the photos below myself in about 1978/1979 of DLX 55J.
   
   Scroll halfway down the link below for a brief history and several original pics. I also have a copy of an old 428 Club Register dated 1990 which shows it to be CF62. If you wish to confirm it is CF 62 please contact Andy Shepherd the 428 Registrar on this forum.
   
   Hope this helps
   
   Paul []
   http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217&whichpage=2

[shep]

Certainly, the register confirms that DLX 55 J and CF62 are the same car. As far as the damage goes, there are many cars of all marques which have been repaired to a very high standard, and can be better engineered than the original. It is for the purchaser to be happy with the standard of repair or restoration. I would not spend 100k on an expensive diamond, or a race horse without taking expert advice, and would expect anyone purchasing a classic car to do the same. If you want it to be completely original, then it will not be reliable as some parts like 40 year old tyres can be dangerous. Trust me I know! If you want to enjoy the car and drive it to events, then a sympathetically restored example will give much more pleasure, even if it may have suffered in the past. It all depends what you want to do. Andy.

[Emmanueld]

Andy, i agree 100%. In case of the Frua,  it would be difficult to drive a completely original car here in Los Angeles in view of traffic, heat and petrol quality. If modifications are done with taste and using quality parts, one can have a very reliable and enjoyable automobile which still looks stock. In view of the Italian steel issue, I am ready to bet there is no completely original and unmolested Frua around, unless the car has lived in Arizona or in a climate controlled museum for all it's existence. There were many areas in my car where the factory never bothered to apply any kind of primer or sealant leaving just bare metal. Even if the car is never exposed to water, just the ambiant humidity will rust the car resulting in holes after some time.
   
   Emmanuel[]