AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: cliffordl on September 09, 2010, 10:08:53
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Discreet ad in the latest ACtion, car is a drophead. No further details listed.
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How do I find this ad? Thanks, Alex
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Could someone post some details of the ad for those of us who don't get the magazine? Thanks, Alex
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Alex details are available to ACOC members, would you consider joining the Club?
Terry
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Terry,
Just point me in the right direction. I would definitely be interested in joining.
Alex
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Right answer [:D]
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(http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/B/bratcamp/images/pointing_finger.gif) MEMBERSHIP FORM (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/ac_membership.asp")
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This is certainly a great looking automobile! I think this might be the original colour of Jeffrey's car.
Emmanuel[:)]
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CF 31 for sale.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C247464
(http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/ac/2233158.jpg)
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This may be posted elsewhere, but CF31 was reported as having sold for $225,000 at RM auctions sale in London. This from "Sports Car Market" magazine, February 2012 issue
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Jeffrey the catalogue estimate for this car was £ 120,000 to £ 155,000, and the stated selling price was £ 140,000, the dollar equivalent will depend I guess on the prevailing exchange rate. I don't know if this figure given by RM was inclusive or exclusive of commission.......
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PS at today's exchange rate, that is about $ 215,000, but I'm not sure what the rate was in October 2011
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Don't know either, Brett. I just "reported" what was said in SCM. The Editors comment is as follows:
"Said to be one of 29 built. Convertibles sell for more money than Coupes (see profile in the December 2011 SCM), but this price must have pleased even Andy Shepherd, the 428 Registrar who is always telling me these cars are worth $190k-plus, despite auction prices indicating otherwise. Well sold at just $15k under the $240k high pre-sale estimate."
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to which I might add: "CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION". (see reference on this forum to the car profiled in the December 2011 SCM, cited by the Editor, above)
(analagous to the first three rules of real estate, Location, location, Location)
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Yes Jeffrey, I agree, condition and/or low mileage is everything. Mind you with only 29 convertibles around I guess that word 'rarity' has a big say in values improving ! By the way I just rejoined the club for the first time in many years, much less hassle for me to do now the PayPal is up and running !
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Welcome back, Brett.
According to Paul's (Classicus) Frua registry, there are now 70 AC 428's accounted for, in total. Included in that total are 428's re-bodied as Cobras.
That's a very thin market.
A thin market makes valuation difficult.
"Story" cars don't appeal to some Collectors. Many "collectors" want something immediately identifiable, and desire 'the best of the best' to lord over other owners of the same make or model.
Here's an example: the 1958 Chevrolet Impala - a car that has many admirers, and pulls good prices today:
With a six-cylinder engine, a Chevrolet Bel Air Impala started at $2,586, while $2,693 bought a V8. In all, 55,989 convertibles and 125,480 Sport Coupes were built, 15 percent of production. Interiors held a two-spoke steering wheel and color-keyed door panels with brushed aluminum trim. (copied from Wikipedia)
OK! more than 175,000 Impalas built in 1958. Just 15% of the otherwise Identical total production of chevrolet for that year. Some Impalas sell for MORE than CF31 fetched at auction! Confounding? OK - everything sells for what "the market" determines. But REALLY!....
I think it's odd (here in the USA) that Corvettes (for example) have such a strong market pull. There are 100's of thousands, possibly more than a million Corvettes still in existance. What is "rarity'?
Most American cars sold 100's of thousands of examples, year after year. Mass produced. I've seen cars being auctioned, and touted as "1 of 1" because the car was ORIGINALLY painted teal, with a three speed column shift and "dog dish" hubcaps! Well whoop-de-doo! That's "exclusivity" for you. (Who could possibly care?)
The unusual aspect of 428's is their undeniable lineage starting from the ACE through the Cobra. A little esoteric for some, a little too complicated, perhaps - but clearly true.
I think this makes the car VERY desireable.
Some quibble that the 428 has no visual kinship to the "Cobra" shape. My retort: who cares?
Which is more important:
1) What it LOOKS like.
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2) What it does, and how well it does it.
It's a GT!. It was not intended to be a race car - though it COULD be raced (Andy + Boris).
It can easily trounce the competative cars of it's era.
It's genuinely extremely rare.
It's very good looking (to most eyes)
It can be serviced, maintained and improved economically. (consider Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin etc. How much for an engine re-build? Suspension upgrade?. There's no comparison!)
Truthfully, Brett - low mileage really does not matter much regarding 428's. They can easily be fixed (compared to other "Exotics" of the period). All the running gear is available, much of it improved over time.
Frankly, I doubt many 428's actually accumulated much mileage. My car, for example, ran so hot that 30 minutes was about as much as the driver or the car could stand.
So now - it's fixed! (and by "fixed", I mean WITHOUT making any 'chemical' change). Runs cool - passengers happy, engine happy.
And I've got an indicated 44,444 miles on the odometer. More to come, I expect.
'BLOW WINDS! CRACK YOUR CHEEKS!". There's no accounting for taste. And it's tough, arguing with "what is" vs "what should be" (according to me, I suppose)
---end of rant---
sorry
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And it's still early days ! I also think it must be one of the last if not the last true exotic of that era for values to have started increasing too, though when it all started to become the booming market it is today I've no idea. I do remember there was a sudden price slump in the UK sometime in the early Nineties though why that happened I've no idea either....
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LOL Jeffrey I'm with you on this one. Some values never make much sense to me and I'm in the old car trade, but the thinking behind people liking documented low mileage cars is that there is less likely to be major wear on the components and less chance of the car having been 'incorrectly' repaired/restored if it's seen little use, as it can cost a lot more to undo bad workmanship as Emmanuel would no doubt confirm. I always laugh when I see an American car advertised as 'one of one' as like you obviously I think it was so undesirable when new that nobody else wanted one in the same specification LOL. But it's obvious why American classics are so popular there, because generations of Americans grew up with those cars in their families so they hold strong emotions for them. I guess truthfully most Americans have never heard of AC, and certainly not Frua's unless they are heavily into European classics. Although so many muscle cars were built, of course the American population is gigantic so I guess relatively speaking, the older Corvettes are quite rare ?
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Yes. I suppose the 'value' of most old cars is determined by emotion. Having had a specific car, or wanting one in ones youth, provides the incentive to purchase a car many years later.
I grew up in an environment that was populated with European cars, unusual in the USA. I knew about AC's (and Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Bristol, Alfa, Lancia, Ferrari, etc) because those were the cars I saw and loved as a Child. (My Uncle was a car dealer in partnership with Max Hoffman, my neighborhood was populated with European cars of the 50's, 60's and 70's).
I lked American cars, but they were "common", gaudy, boat-like and gigantic in comparison. My second Grade teacher drove a yellow Porsche convertible - pretty exotic in 1953.
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Hi guys,
In my mind, what has hurt the Frua in the past is mainly it's rarity combined with it's tendency to corrode, plus the fact that it featured American mechanicals. Also, because it is so rare, it is unknown to a majority of people. The tendency to corrode has also scared people away and a lot of the cars that went to auction in the past looked worn out. Cars with American mechanicals were not considered exotic with the exception of the Cobra which has been relished because of it's wildness and brute appeal and the Frua has a lot of that. I call it the Pantera syndrome.
Luckily for us owners, the cars are being discovered, their heritage, the fact they feature a "big" block, the fact that many of them are now being restored and cared for. From now on, when they come to auction all shinny and looking like a "million bucks" people will notice. A bit like Facel Vegas which are now enjoying a surge in popularity for the same reasons. Also, the most important, they drive great, they corner, they have massive power, good brakes and you are unlikely to see another one close by! That is except in Los Angeles.
Anyway, my 2 cents!
Emmanuel[:)]
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Hijacked thread continued:
Brett - true enough, genuine low mileage cars have all the advantages you speak of.
My point: At the price most present owners likely paid for their cars in years past, a great deal of (costly) restoration could be done to bring the cars up to 'excellent' condition, given the higher value the cars COULD BE sold for presently (and in future, should the 428 be valued as some of us believe should be the case).
The work must be done by skilled, knowledgeable craftsmen, well-documented and done correctly.
10 years ago and more, 428's were very underpriced. And as a result, it was not feasible to spend a great deal of money to 'fix' a rusted, abused car.
That has changed. It's not now a losing proposition to undo a history of cheap fixes.
Big-block Cobras sell for BIG money. If enough well-heeled Cobra collectors knew they could buy a genuine inheritor of the Cobra lineage, and be able to actually USE and CAMPAIGN a (relatively) comfortable version of said Cobra, well.... why should these much rarer cars not sell for approximately the same price?
Advantages: rarity, exclusivity, useablity, fun, comfort, weather protection, room for spouse and luggage, performance. AND, You and everyone else will know you are driving the Genuine article, not some 'tribute' fake. (Bragging rights)
As Emmanuel and others have pointed out in previous posts, All Italian steel cars were prone to rust. It has not been a losing proposition to repair these cars. As I mentioned a long time ago, Randy Reed repaired a Ferrari that was a total rust-bucket (and had been built originally with Italian metal street signs) that went on to sell for millions of dollars.
Maybe this could be ultimately true of 428's. But the cars MUST be 'up to snuff'. (note: I do not mean that Fruas would sell for "millions of dollars")
It is not a losing proposition to restore 428's to original or BETTER condition.
There are few, if any, ORIGINAL Big-Block Cobras that have not been subtily 'improved' over their lifetimes. Consider the muzzy figures for the number of Shelby Cobras originally sold with 428 engines. Now, it seems, ALL of them came with 427's as original equipment,
How'd that happen? (and - does any one REALLY care? As long as it's subtile and period-correct? The "Cobra" guys use their cars, they don't just stare at them)
Among the great advantages of owning a 428 is being able to make it better, and still be "original". Thanks to the enormous popularity of "Cobras", (Kirkham and others) the refinement of "original" engine parts, suspension parts etc., has continued to the present day. And most of the "new" parts are still handmade. The "old" parts are available on Ebay and elsewhere.
Ford made a great many performance parts for their engines in the day - and you can buy them and use them NOW.
The 428 is not a delicate flower. It is meant to be used, not stared at.
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Emmanuel is right, one of the things that has perceived to hold back values of certain high performance classics has been the stigma of 'unpure' hybrid engineering. I don't know why that should be, but it is the current way of the world. I guess it is because they are often considered less 'unique'. With low production high performance cars there is tendency for the engineering 'romantics', purists and collectors to prefer a particular Ferrari because it has a home-grown Ferrari engine, a Maserati because it has Maserati Engine, and Lamborghini or Bugatti or McLaren or Aston Martin and similar makes for the same reasons.
Historically Isos, AC 428s, Jensens, DeTomasos, Montiverdis, Facels etc have always seemed to be worth less as Italian designed cars fitted with American V8s purely because they were considered to be less 'exotic' and designated as hybrids.
Collectors often tended to think of the engineering on these as 'cheating' as the factories simply fitted lazy high-torque American V8s rather than an exotic, multi-camshafted high-revving alloy engine. There is a high romance factor linked to exotic engineering.
I love my lazy American engines and the sound they make, but perhaps they don't make me 'tingle' the same way as when I hear a Lamborghini or Ferrari V12 accelerating.
Amongst the 'hybrid' cars there are often large variations in values dependant on other factors, amongst these being the rarity of the specific make or model, the perceived beauty and/or 'brutality' of the car and the perhaps competition history of the design and how much the car has become aware to the world-wide public.
To see what I mean look at the following comparisons of hybrid models and probable differences in current price value levels ( these are totally my own assessments now, so I don't expect everyone to agree as they are purely personal so no attacking me please if any of you own, or love or hate particular examples I have chosen to use LOL ).
HIGHEST VALUES :-
AC Cobra :- British specialist manufacturer, hand-formed alloy body, brutal looks ( or beautiful depending on your point of view ) , brutal performance from Ford V8s, successful competition history, massive public awareness due to the large amount of replicas, relative rarity of genuine factory-built examples.
ISO Bizzarini A3C :- Hand-formed mostly alloy Italian body, stunning looks ( not so 'pretty' to my eye ), high performance from small block Chevrolet V8s, competition history, extremely rare, not well known to the general public.
Montiverdi Hai SS :- Swiss manufacturer, eye-catching looks, ridiculously rare, crazy Chysler HEMI performance, virtually unknown to the general public.
HIGH VALUES :-
AC 428 :- British specialist manufacturer, Italian bodyshell, very stylish, massive engine, massive performance from 7-Litre Ford V8, mostly automatics so considered less 'sporty', very rare, corrosion problems from Italian steel, relatively unfamiliar to the general public.
ISO Grifo 7-Litre :- Italian manufacturer, stylish looking, massive engine and performance from Ford or Chevrolet 7 Litre V8, extremely rare, serious corrosion problems, relatively unknown to the general public.
ISO Grifo 5.7 Litre :- Same as above but less performance from Ford or Chevrolet 5.7 Litre V8s, not so rare and hence slightly lower values than the 7 Litre
DeTomaso Mangusta :- Italian manufacturer, eye-catching looks, very rare, dubious reputation for handling characteristics, good rather than amazing performance from the standard Ford 5 Litre V8, corrosion problems, relatively unknown to the general public.
Other Montiverdis :- Swiss manufacturer, varying degrees of style depending on the model, varying degrees of performance from Chrylser V8s, very rare, mostly unknown to the general public.
Facel Vegas :- French specialist manufacturer, heavily associated with French romance and style, corrosion problems, very rare, respectable performance from Chrysler V8s
LOWER VALUES :-
ISO Lele :- Italian manufacturer, dubious looks to many people ( I like them ), heavy so not amazing performance from Ford or Chevrolet 5.7 Litre V8s, reputation for shocking corrosion problems, rare and relatively unknown to the general public.
DeTomaso Pantera :- Italian/America partnership, eye-catching to many, Ford V8's with performance depending on the level of tune, poor original build quality, corrosion problems, not as rare as some of the above models, relatively well known to the general public.
Jensen Interceptor :- British manufacturer, Italian bodyshell, not so rare, corrosion problems, heavy so only respectable performance from Chrysler V8s, not everybody like the looks ( I do ), quite well known to the general public
This is not meant to be an exhaustive list, purely a few examples I have chosen at random so other readers will probably think along different lines to me.
The other question to ask oneself of course is 'Are AC 428s actually undervalued still?'
Personally I think they are now at sensible levels although a subsequent shift in the world classic car market may adjust this up or down.
Obviously if you compare the values of Fruas with Cobras they might appear to be heavily undervalued, but the point is that despite the shared manufacturer and similar running gear, they are in fact nothing like Cobras, and many exotic manufacturers have wild variations in model types and values so this in nothing unusual. A Ferrari Lusso is worth many times the value of a 365 GTC, a Lamborghini 350 GT is worth many times the value of Lamborghini Espada but they cost similar amounts to restore and maintain.
In fact I believe that now AC 428 values are reasonably in line with what I consider to be their period front-engined GT contemparies. I suspect that a Frua is probably similar in value to an Aston Martin DB6 or DBS V8, ISO Griffo, Maserati Ghibli, Ferrari 330GT / 365 GTC, Lamborghini 400GT or Islero, some of which would probably cost a lot more to restore ( I mean mechanically, as the bodyshell costs might be similar).
In reality 'hybrids' are probably no longer any lower in value than many so-called 'purer' exotics. Look at the incredibly low values of numerous 'classic' Lamborghinis ( Espada, Jarama, Urracco ), Ferraris ( 365GT , 400GT, 308GT4 ), Maseratis ( Merak , Indy, Khamsin ).
From the point of view of most owners of 428s and similar exotics, especially when like Emmanuel, they have spents substantial amounts of money restoring them properly to perfection, a rise in values is very desirable as it's nice to own an appreciating capital asset that one can enjoy, and it means that more examples will be hopefully be properly preserved. The flipside to this is that unfortunately they are taken out of the potential price range of many enthusiasts that might one day dream of owning their fantasy car.
Apologies for my lengthy waffle, clearly I had nothing better to do on Sunday morning ! ( actually I should be decorating but I was feeling lazy ! ).
My best regards to all AC owners and enthusiasts !
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Very interesting thanks Brett bit out of my league all this ! What sort of buyer do you think is likely to be the most interested in a 428 - a collector, investor, enthusiast or.... ?
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Well Paul at the moment hard to answer that for certain ! There are clearly some large investment corporations and individuals buying up 'valuable' classics at the moment as an alternative to shares and other investment mediums. If they see a drop off in growth they could possibly 'unload' a large quantity of cars at auctions which could cause a fall in market values, however extremely rare cars like the 428 are less likely to be affected by car 'dumping'. I think although one or 2 investors and speculators are attracted to Fruas, I think they are more likely to be bought by serious AC collectors and enthusiasts who have known the model for many years and have been waiting until a suitable car and funds became available.
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Well said Brett, I agree entirely. If I may add the following, for all the car listed above, Convertible fetch the most money then coupes. 2+2s' and sedans are worth the least with one exception, that is Aston Martins since most models are indeed 2+2s. Ferraris are a good example, only recently have the prices for 60's 2+2's stating rising, before any of these could be bought in the low $30ks now they sell above $100K. The C4 for example which is the "Daytona" in 2+2 has only started rising in value recently, before, price was a 1/10 of a 365 GTB4. So the 428 being a 2 seater should be most desirable!
Emmanuel[:)]