AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Aceca289 on April 25, 2008, 04:07:12
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I own a 1956 Aceca that was fitted with a high performance (hipo) 289 in 1963. I am having some restoration work done on the car and the cost for custom made SS headers is high. Does anyone know of a source for pre-maunfactured Stainless Steel headers that might fit with minor modifications. The configuration should be similar to the original 289 cobras.
Thanks
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Try Finish Line in Las Vegas! You might want to call them!
http://www.finishlinecobraslv.com/index.html
or Kirkham, they make a leaf springs small block car.
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/
I would call Kirkham first, their headers will be an exact replica of the originals! [:)]
Regards,
Emmanuel
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Thanks for the reply. I have been to these web sites, but will try calling as you suggested to see if they can assit in leading me to a source. The welder is looking at using mustang headers as a starting point and fabricating the collectors to route the exhust in the proper direction. The cost of parts and labor to build custom SS headers from scratch scares me.
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How about using standrad headers that are coated (jet hot or equivalent)? I have never seen stainless headers(doesn't meant they are not out there), and people have had pretty good luck with coated versions.
Jay
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aceca289, go to cobraautomotive.com they can help, also hipomustangs.com forum post on the restoration forum, also what is the casting number and date code of your block, it can be found behind the starter, also, there is a pad on the right rear of the block with a 4 digit number that indicates the production order of your hipo. if your date code is in fact 63, there are many important differences from a 64 hipo that you need to be aware of. timing cover oil fill, 5 bolt bellhousing, closed valve covers, closed chamber heads...check those numbers and get back to me...a great book for info is small block fords by bob mannel, he is always on the hipo site and will answer any questions.
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I am 99.999% sure that my engine is a 1963 hipo 289. My father purchased the car in 1968 from the person who had the engine installed. I have a file folder of original paperwork and receipts which adds interest to the car. For example, the work was performed in the summer of 1963 with the engine costing $791.20 brand new from Ford and the Borg Warner T10 transmission was $337.00. I even have the phone records showing $32.66 in phone calls to Shelby’s shop in Venice, California. The whole engine swap cost $5,181.93 and with additional misc work on the car the job totaled $6,212.34. To put it in perspective you could buy a brand new Cobra for the same amount of money in 1963.
Thanks for the tip on the book by Bob Mannel about small block fords. I will see if I can locate a copy. I asked the guy who is working on the restoration to look up the numbers on my engine block anyways, and I will let you know when I receive the information. It may take a while as he is involved with vintage racing and has some races coming up soon. Do you know if there are any differences on the early hipo 289s vs. the later ones with respect to the exhaust manifold flanges mounts? I am working on a lead (obtained from a phone call to Kirkham Motorsports) on some SS headers and this information would be helpful. I will try to reach Bob Mannel also to see if he can answer this question.
Thanks,
John
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Why not buy a set of shorty headers ...they are plentyful and cheap. unless this is a restoration ..then COOKS can make them for you.
Ron
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here's the link to bob mannel's book: http://www.fordsmallblock.com/
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by the way, what a cool story, I love the phone records to shelby..at that cost, makes you wonder why he didnt just buy a shelby at the time..
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quote:
Originally posted by msgsobe
here's the link to bob mannel's book: http://www.fordsmallblock.com/
Thanks! I ordered a copy last night. It looks like a very comprehensive book.
John
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quote:
Originally posted by ak1234
Why not buy a set of shorty headers ...they are plentyful and cheap. unless this is a restoration ..then COOKS can make them for you.
Ron
I am pursuing a lead on a shorty type header that was supposedly used by Shelby in the original 289 Cobras. The owner of CSX3018 had a pair of these SS headers put on his car and the configuration looks like it will work with the Aceca (provided the foot-wells do not differ too much from the Cobra). I was told that they are an exact replica of the headers that Shelby used and were referred to as “Bolanger (sp?) Nassau Headers”. Does anyone know anything about this reference to Bolanger headers?
John
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"Bellanger" was a header manufacturer. Long gone, but others can copy the style. Cobra Automotive has them I think. "Nassau" headers were an improvement on the cast iron/tubular units used previously (the small cast "Y"s that then had tubular pipes attached, a 4 into 2 into 1 type arrangement)
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Why SS headers? You can make them in mild steel and have them ceramic coated inside out which will reduce under-hood heat as well. On my 428, because of the lack of room on the side, I bought a pair of Sanderson shorties and had them modified by a pro. Total cost with the ceramic around $1400. Easy!
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
Why SS headers? You can make them in mild steel and have them ceramic coated inside out which will reduce under-hood heat as well. On my 428, because of the lack of room on the side, I bought a pair of Sanderson shorties and had them modified by a pro. Total cost with the ceramic around $1400. Easy!
Emmanuel
I have looked into ceramic coated headers and the jury is still not quite in on the subject. I do need to reduce under-hood heat. In my research, I found that carbon steel conducts about 220% more heat per foot than stainless steel, making stainless a superior choice over carbon steel. It is hard to find an unbiased opinion about how stainless steel compares to ceramic coated carbon steel with respect to heat transfer. I also understand that ceramic coating is dependent on the quality of the application. Poor quality application or cracks and chips in the coating can expose the mild steel to corrosion. Radiant heat is another concern which makes ceramic coating look inviting. I plan on resolving the radiant heat issue by having the car re carpeted with a space age thermal blanket under the carpet. I may also take additional measures such as wrapping the headers.
Even though my Aceca does not have the original engine, it does have a well documented history of a (costly) vintage engine replacement. It is my intent to restore the engine compartment to what it looked like (or could have looked like) in 1963 when the hipo 289 was installed. Along those lines, I would like to keep with materials and methods that were available in 1963 (such as stainless steel and wrapping of headers). Although, I will try to locate a ceramic coated header to see what the outward appearance looks like before making a final decision.
John
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I disagree, the jury has been out on this for a long time, this technology has been developped and used for years on aircraft jet engines and in racing as well. I have used ceramic coatings for quite a while and I am very happy with the results. Remember, coating should be applied inside and outside of the headers. It is so effective that one can actually touch coated headers without leaving any skin when the engine is running while temperature inside is raised substantially increasing burn efficiency. For modern cars equipped with a catalytic converter, ceramic coating will make the difference wheather the car will pass emissions when headers are used instead of the original manifolds which are usually made of cast iron or shielded in some ways.
Emmanuel
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Emmanuel
I agree that ceramic coated headers should work well and reduce the radiant heat issues. I am mainly concerned about the appearance of the headers. I don’t want the exhaust system to stand out as modern looking as it is my intent to restore the engine bay to a 1963 vintage look. I understand that ceramic coatings come in a chrome like finish and black (maybe more). I have seen the chrome like finish and am not fond of it. Any comments on the black finish? Is it flat black, greyish black, semi glossy black?? Do they stand out as looking out of place with respect to the vintage of the engine? Does anyone else have any opinions?
My initial thought on replacing the headers and exhaust system was to go with ceramic coated headers since heat transfer into the cockpit is a problem. However, the mechanic working on my Aceca had installed a space age thermal blanket under the carpet in a 428 Frua coupe and achieved noticeable reduction in cockpit temperatures with that solution alone.
If I can get a better idea on the appearance of the ceramic coatings, I may consider them more seriously. In the end, stainless steel headers / exhaust have a very appealing look and are virtually bullet proof albeit they may be more expensive.
John
PS – I saw your 428 Frua in the “How many 428 Frua left” thread. Nice looking car! FYI -The 428 Frua I mentioned above is located in the San Francisco Bay Area (I saw it once at my mechanics shop – Silver paint...I recall – no info on the chassis number)
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Best of both worlds? Is there anything against wrapping ceramic coated headers for the 'period' look you were after?
Then again according to Zircotec (http://"http://www.zircotec.org/page/classic_cars/14")..."The Zircotec high temperature coating process is particularly popular for vintage and classic racing cars as well as high-performance classic road cars as it brings all the benefits enjoyed by the professional motorsport industry, yet with a range of thermal barrier finishes that deliver a durable period look."
And for Classic Racing Cars (http://"http://www.zircotec.org/page/classic_cars/15") "...Our standard white finish perfectly and safely replicates the original asbestos heat barrier coating used by many formula and sports GT racing cars including AC, Aston Martin, Chevrolet, Lola, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, Lotus and MG..."
[8D]
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John, thanks
You can see more picture of the car in the thread "AC Frua repaired floors, sills and inner wings" and also in the "AC Frua manual 4 speed conversion." thread. The car has not changed much ever since. I have been busy at the office and I have been working on the motor. The car looked good on the photo but it was a mess below the sills. Looking back, I paid too much for it but if I wanted a Frua roadster this was it.
After the motor is done, it will be stripped to the bare metal and painted (The car that is). Also a new rear bumper will be made as the current one is too bad to ever look good.
As far as ceramic coatings, I have used HPC, they have a 2000 degrees flat black that would probably work for you. I used them years ago and they were great! They are in Arizona I think!
Emmanuel[:)]
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John,
Here is the address: http://www.hpcoatings.com/default.aspx
Regards,
Emmanuel
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Best of both worlds? Is there anything against wrapping ceramic coated headers for the 'period' look you were after?
Then again according to Zircotec (http://"http://www.zircotec.org/page/classic_cars/14")..."The Zircotec high temperature coating process is particularly popular for vintage and classic racing cars as well as high-performance classic road cars as it brings all the benefits enjoyed by the professional motorsport industry, yet with a range of thermal barrier finishes that deliver a durable period look."
And for Classic Racing Cars (http://"http://www.zircotec.org/page/classic_cars/15") "...Our standard white finish perfectly and safely replicates the original asbestos heat barrier coating used by many formula and sports GT racing cars including AC, Aston Martin, Chevrolet, Lola, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, Lotus and MG..."
[8D]
Interesting concept to wrap a ceramic coated header. Talk about reducing radiant heat issues. One should be able to hold onto those headers when running and not let go! Thanks for the input…lots of ideas to consider. I will try to look at some of the coating finishes in person before deciding.
I got a price on the Bellanger type (shorty) headers made for cobra 289's in stainless steel. They will cost $700 +tax. Not too bad.
One other item to consider is that SS headers are said to be quieter than typical carbon steel headers which can sound bright. Does anyone know if ceramic coating headers will make them run quieter like stainless steel? I could even have the stainless steel headers ceramic coated. Options galore!
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John Hi,
As far as noise, I think it's the other way around, I was considering a complete SS exhaust for my XK150 but upon listening to cars so equipped, I decided to keep the original mild steel system. The SS system sounds more high pitched, more brittle. Same thing with Tubi systems for modern Ferraries. The sound is more high pitched. I don't think header material will make a big difference though as far as sound.
Emmanuel[:)]
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Emmanuel,
Thanks for your opinions on ceramic coatings and noise issues. Since I have already located a pair of SS headers that should work without modifications, I am toying with the idea of having just the inside of the SS headers coated to reduce radiant heat issues. I e-mailed a ceramic coating company and they said that this can be done. The possibilities are truly endless.
As for the noise/sound, I believe the overall design of the system (pipe diameter, type of mufflers…) would likely have more effective than the pipe materials. I am thinking about a low profile pair of spin tech performance mufflers http://www.spintechmufflers.com/spintech/spintechindex.asp under the seats and a pair of glass-packs at the rear. My mechanic says to try an exhaust system without the mufflers and only the glass-packs first. However, I am concerned about how loud it may be without the mufflers.
I looked at the thread for your AC Frua restoration. Wow! You had some real repair work to do. I am sure you will rest happier when your project is complete.
John
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Thanks John, thats the problem with steel, it rusts (especially 60's Italian Steel). I posted some more photos showing how bad the car was. I knew it was not great when I bought it, but I did not know to what extent. Oh well, I am pretty happy with the results, it's only money as they say!
You are right, possibilities are endless with modern technology. Your project sounds like fun, your car should be a riot to drive. Are you going to convert to rack and pinion steering?
Emmanuel
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I took a look at the latest pictures you posted of the repairs to your 428 Frua. Yuk, what a mess before the repairs! I have some sense of what you went through as my Aceca had some large clunks and rattles coming from the rear end before the restoration work began. During the rebuilding of the rear suspension many of the space member pieces holding the bodywork were discovered to be corroded out so they were cut out and new ones fabricated and replaced. I should have a more quiet ride when it is back on the road.
As for converting to rack and pinion…my father took care of that in the late 60’s or early 70’s.
John