AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: Chafford on September 24, 2011, 09:35:48
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A new book on the Shelby Cobra is being released in October but includes a surprising factual error.
If you look at the Google on-line preview, the book notes on page 22 under the picture of an Ace 'One can easily see the amount of front-end restyling Shelby performed to turn the Ace into the Cobra'. Evidently the author doesn't know about the Ace 2.6.[:0]
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UzwuFnch6ZMC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=cobra+50+years+comer&source=bl&ots=gN4Tm0IUmg&sig=dywneKzEUjzCzRxaQz7hbDSy9NI&hl=en&ei=HoV9TsrdIOis0QWUtJDVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cobra%2050%20years%20comer&f=false
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shelby-Cobra-Fifty-Years-Colin/dp/0760340293
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
A new book on the Shelby Cobra is being released in October but includes a surprising factual error.
I’ve been trying to determine if this book is worth adding to the collection. Based on a close look at the index, it appears that it is a myopic American view of a 50 yr period. What’s interesting is that although there is a chapter titled “The Cobra Returns!” the index has no reference to Angliss, Autokraft, or Brooklands despite listing E.R.A. replicas, Kirkham Motorsports, and Superperformance. That said it is possible that the former topics are hidden under the rubric of AC cars, which has 13 referenced pages, but that is doubtful. All this seems to support Chafford’s original observation that there appears to be significant errors and/or omissions. We’ll have to hear from someone who actually has access to the whole book before a final verdict is reached. Thus far, I’m not buying it.
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quote:
Originally posted by ANF289
quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
A new book on the Shelby Cobra is being released in October but includes a surprising factual error.
I’ve been trying to determine if this book is worth adding to the collection. Based on a close look at the index, it appears that it is a myopic American view of a 50 yr period. What’s interesting is that although there is a chapter titled “The Cobra Returns!” the index has no reference to Angliss, Autokraft, or Brooklands despite listing E.R.A. replicas, Kirkham Motorsports, and Superperformance. That said it is possible that the former topics are hidden under the rubric of AC cars, which has 13 referenced pages, but that is doubtful. All this seems to support Chafford’s original observation that there appears to be significant errors and/or omissions. We’ll have to hear from someone who actually has access to the whole book before a final verdict is reached. Thus far, I’m not buying it.
I can not imagine anything new in this book that has not been printed already.Apart from Marks observations regarding the ACE,plus any other errors !!
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Call me cynical if you will. The author is Colin Comer. His business is sales and restoration as well as race preparation of vintage cars. His primary interest and focus has been Shelby cars (Cobras and Mustangs). He wrote a book before and this is the next one. He's well known on this side of the pond in the Shelby circles. He frequents various historic race events and rallies. I don't believe he is exactly known as a historian. Without a doubt does it reflect the "myopic American" view. And frankly, although I do not doubt his enthusiasm, I believe the books serve more as a means to establish himself as an expert in the market on this side of the pond than to be an absolutely correct record of history (which would be a very hard thing to do anyway, especially with the days after Angliss and all the Shelby undulations.)
So, my opinion being what it is, I will probably still buy the book. Just because I have a small collection of books covering AC and Shelby. Including several of the AC gurus: Legate and Mills!!
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You would have thought he might have read Trevor Legate's books before putting pen to paper!
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Well....quite.
Apparantly he fought for the inclusion of the 'continuation/replicated/revived' Cobras as MBI only wanted the book to be about the genuine cars. He got his way in the end. (Either way, he didn't do his homework too well reagrding the Ace!)
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It´s just an other indication of the totally different point of view of the Americans and the Europeans about the Cobras.
To the Americans it´s just a work of Shelby (yes, he is responsible for making them a legend) - for the Europeans it´s a British car. To the Americans, the cars from the Angliss era are just another branch of the many Cobra replicas.
However, the cover of the book is nice, the price is not too high and it is a hard-cover book (you can´t call a soft-cover a book). It will look good in the bookcase and maybe it´s interesting to find out if there are any new facts be be read.
Michael
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I like the photo on page 21 of Ed Hugus running around the front of CSX2142 at Le Mans in 1964, a year after he started the race in 1963 then? [:I]
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Ed's American - lives in a different time zone (obviously!)
Starting to wonder if I should part with my 20+ shekels.....maybe the piccies are nice?
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Attention, Legate household.
"What do you get the man who has everything for Christmas?"
Hint hint.
[:)]
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An AC 'Continuation'? [;)]
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Just got the book, gents.
It's a nice lay out and with piccies I have not seen in other publications. It is the "myopic" American view as someone put it before.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, a few too many piccies involving cars owned by Comer and cars driven by Comer. As I mentioned before, I feel this is more to establish Comer than to write a proper historical review on AC and Shelby cobras.
A different angle was to include some of the people from SAAC and look at their POV.
Like Trevor did, a large section in the end of the book discussing the replica/kit industry. I wonder whether this is instigated by Motorbooks as it would open the book up to the large number of Kit owners, who would feel they are finally getting some overdue respect for keeping the dream alive...(I happen to feel that way and was very pleased with Trevor's accounts of the current "Cobra" market)
It is definitely not as detailed as Trevor's book and I think the lay-out is similar.
All 'n all not a bad deal at some 25 bucks (don't know how you can make money on that, as the quality of the print is very nice).
Now I need to make time to read beyond the text that goes with the pictures...
Gus
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Promoting my own collection of Cobras was never an issue!! But please don't pity me (just send money)
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Aah, but your entire collection of Cobra did appear, did it not? [8D][;)]
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No, they/it did not (but got an honourable mention)
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate: No, they/it did not (but got an honourable mention)
DOH! I shouldn`t believe what I read without checking first!:
This fantastic car was owned by AC Cobra guru Trevor Legate and is featured in his well known book "Cobra the First Forty Years". (http://"http://www.privatecollections.co.uk/itemdetail.asp?catid=2")
(Well, if you call 3 lines in the dust cover bio 'featured')
(Does that make me as thorough a Cobra expert as Mr. Comer?) [:I]
Oh well, it did prompt me to get out my copy & have a good read. [:D]
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It's a crying shame Mr. Legate parted with this fine example...
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by TLegate: No, they/it did not (but got an honourable mention)
DOH! I shouldn`t believe what I read without checking first!:
This fantastic car was owned by AC Cobra guru Trevor Legate and is featured in his well known book "Cobra the First Forty Years". (http://"http://www.privatecollections.co.uk/itemdetail.asp?catid=2")
(Well, if you call 3 lines in the dust cover bio 'featured')
(Does that make me as thorough a Cobra expert as Mr. Comer?) [:I]
Oh well, it did prompt me to get out my copy & have a good read. [:D]
Ah yes, COX 5012! It's no secret that the body and chassis was built by AC Cars at Frimley around 2002/03, Steve Gray of Brooklands Motor Company put the body on the frame and the car was completed by Gerry Hawkridge around the end of 2004. But still being advertised using that text, despite the dealers being given the full accurate picture as to the car's history! Oh dear!
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Mark,
I prefered your post above with the certificate of authenticity you posted & then removed?
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Even if it were a secret, it's bloody well not any more.....I think we've all got the message....
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinghorse
Mark,
I prefered your post above with the certificate of authenticity you posted & then removed?
Link below:
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/41877/ppuser/19864/sl/t
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You guys lost me..
Gus
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I'm an American, and I really dislike the American-centric viewpoint regarding "Cobras". In fact, the American-centric cast of mind extends to many other subjects as well.
It's ridiculous and embarrassing to discount the origin of "Cobras", and to claim more credit than deserved.
Unfortunately, the contest between FACT and BELIEF is a constant here. Maybe it's a cyclical phase, but it seems that doctrinaire, unshakeble partisanship has got a firm grip in American politics as well.
Credit where credit is due, please.
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I suppose I'm an American too.. having lived here and raising my kids here and holding my business here for the last almost 20 years. Citizen now. Great country it is. Agree with the polarization in politics you seem to allude to, appreciate the "myopic" American view on many matters, because this IS "the greatest country on earth", as if no one else thinks that of their own...
But what did you mean with Credit where credit is due? AC deserves credit or Comer deserves credit?
Gus
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I mean AC. Carroll Shelby took an existing car and led the effort make it different and "better". But he didn't do it on his own.
AC deserves credit. It was their car!
Shelby deserves credit appropriate to his contribution
All the guys who worked with CS deserve recognition. Ford too. I hope the new book identifies these guys.
I've heard many people (here in the USA) speak with a great deal of passion that the Cobra was an AMERICAN car! 100%!
As if He (Shelby) and only He was responsible, and that AC was a failing little company with nothing to offer, and he saved it.
It's this Provincial, narrow view of things in general I think is disgraceful.
And this kind of narrow, doctrinaire thinking that has paralyzed politics and progress in the USA.
Giving credit where credit is due does not diminish the accomplishment. The Cobra was a success. Good! It was cross-pollination and the talents of many people that made it so.
Sorry - The subject was the new book by Mr. Comer, which I've not seen.
I just get ticked off when "History" is bent in favor of a particular bias.
I'd like to believe there is an Objective Reality. I'd like to believe that facts are facts. Apparently I'm wrong.
I regret having blown up about this. It's a bigger issue I'm mad about today. And this is not the Forum for my disatisfaction. Cars izz fun! Supposed to be.
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J.Jones for President!!!!!!
Nicely put, sir.
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I'll second that.
Mr. Shelby always was his finest publicist and never held back from self-promotion. Not necessarily a bad thing of course, but sometimes he went just a bit too far, especially in later years with his various diatribe about "There never was an AC Cobra" and similar dross. I feel sorry for those patriotic countrymen who swallowed such stuff. He's also a master of coming out with the right comment for the right occasion, even if if means taking the opposite approach from his previous 'opinion'. The matter of replicas comes readily to mind..... :-)
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The 1961 English AC Ace 2.6 designed and built by English craftsmen at AC Cars in Thames Ditton:
(http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/attachments/all-cobra-talk/19107d1313001960-50th-anniversary-ac-ace-2-6-ac-ace-2.6-rs-5034.jpg)
The 1962 All-American Shelby Cobra designed by Shelby American that just happened to have been built by winos under a bridge somewhere in England, I believe:
(http://www.autoviva.com/img/photos/940/ac_cobra_260_img_8940.jpg)
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J Jones, you have hit the nail on the head sir !!
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A very early CSX Cobra in the Thames Ditton England factory in 1962. Note the AC Two-Litre saloons and other ACs behind the screen.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/1962CSX2001Poss-ACCobra42Litrephoto-shootinACFactoryThamesDitton.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOCArch
A very early CSX Cobra in the Thames Ditton England factory in 1962. Note the AC Two-Litre saloons and other ACs behind the screen.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/1962CSX2001Poss-ACCobra42Litrephoto-shootinACFactoryThamesDitton.jpg)
Is it possible to make out the two emblems on the front of the car in your photo? I can not on the image you posted. Thank you
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Interesting photo.
No side vents (as on previous "1962" photo), but the same wheel arches.
The rectangular emblem on the flank near the drivers door is the same shape as the "Ford" tags seen on Cobras.
Center location of the fuel filler on the rear deck is the same as the "1962" photo.
No sunvisors on the above car.
I have a Frua.I've noticed detail differences on all Fruas I have seen. These cars were "bespoke". All slightly different. By order? By chance? Cost or supply issues?
Who knows?
All AC 428 Fruas (however) have side vents. Useless on these cars (inner fender blocked airflow). The vents themselves are identical in construction to those on "original Cobras". (So I've been told by an expert who has dealt with Cobras for 40 years).
Presumably they are effective in "Cobras".
These vents were (by the time the Fruas were being constructed) a styling detail that identified a kinship with "Cobras". I imagine Mr. Frua tacked them on to fulfill his styling brief.
Who's responsible for changes in details? Might it be the person for whom the car was built? Maybe. Mr Shelby might have said 'I need more airflow in the engine bay. Do what you can.'
Or maybe everyone building the car was drunk, and they just did ...whatever....(hic)
Here's a car I saw some time ago. It was badged BOTH "AC" and "Shelby". "AC" on the boot, "Shelby" on the prow.
http://www.heritageclassics.com/past-inventory/detail/127-ac-cobra-mk-i-.html
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quote:
Originally posted by aaron
Chafford we never realised that the AC Ace looked so similar to a Cobra untill you posted these photos !!
And neither did Mr Comer according to his book [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by J Jones
Here's a car I saw some time ago. It was badged BOTH "AC" and "Shelby". "AC" on the boot, "Shelby" on the prow.
http://www.heritageclassics.com/past-inventory/detail/127-ac-cobra-mk-i-.html
Looks like this badge:
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/15892befd2769.jpg)
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Yes. It was maybe 10 years ago that I saw the car. I think thats it. Or at least, I've seen that badge on an AC at Heritage Classics. (my recollection is hazy. I seem to remember seeing an unplated AC roundel - though I might be merging memories of another car)
I am really not knowledgable enough RE: Cobra lore to be chiming in about all this. I've never even seen Trevor's book. I DO see a copy is available on Amazon for $285.00.
Time for an updated edition? (Update? Whaa? The cars were built more than 40 years ago!)(but theres always room for improvement!)
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There are a few reasonably priced "legate/cobra" options on www.abebooks.com
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[/quote]
Looks like this badge:
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/15892befd2769.jpg)
[/quote]
The badging of US market Cobras is a bit of a minefield and, apparently, was a cause of some aggravation between Thames Ditton and US. Rinsey Mills' book 'Original AC Ace and Cobra' has a good summary.
This is my own understanding for the early leaf-spring cars, based on the evidence I have, but which is far from being a complete account of period badges!
a.When they left Thames Ditton, the earliest CSX Cobras carried AC roundal badges, as per the Two-Litre and AC-engined Aces, at the front. This is supported by some of the photos of these cars in US (see The Shelby American Original Archives Page 15).
b.The first Cobra to appear on US roads carried a script 'Shelby' insignia on both front and rear.
c. When first sold in the US, CSX cars up to 2054 had the elongated 'AC Shelby Cobra' badge, shown in the post above, at the front and rear. This is supported by period articles and advertising which, confusingly, often mentioned AC, Shelby and Ford, but not always all 3 at the same time! For example, the Sept 1962 R&T road test is entitled 'AC - Ford Cobra'; the March 1963 Car and Driver 'Road Research Report' is entitled 'AC Cobra', despite the car clearly carrying the elongated badge above!
To add to the confusion, Cobras were homologated 'Shelby American' with the FIA for racing. But, 'AC Cobras' were clearly entered in European races including Le Mans. How did that work?
If you have made it this far across the minefield, then well done!
John
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOCArch...The badging of US market Cobras is a bit of a minefield...If you have made it this far across the minefield, then well done! John
One thing we do know fersure...each and every Cobra ever built, inlcuding the Daytonas, started life with 'AC' Clutch & Brake pedals!
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John,
Thank you for your reply. The detail I could not see clearly in the photo was whether the car pictured had two emblems on the front. An AC emblem and the early AC/Shelby emblem. Photos of CSX2001 in the US by the first owner show two emblems.
Thanks,
Jim
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h358/cobra289/CSX2001.jpg?t=)
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Not to add some mines to the field...
Just read what Doug Nye wrote in the TNF forum about a similar question:
Perfectly fair comment from the American point of view - but from the land of the cars' origination and manufacture it REALLY pissed us off to see these agricultural hybrids being described as 'Shelby American' products, when all the colonials did ...it seemed to us... was to fit a Ford V8 engine and market the things with the usual heavy application of BS. In period we always talked about these things being 'AC' Cobras until the Daytona Coupe appeared, and that was a proper quality product which absolutely captured even our respect. I dismissed the Cobra roadsters then, and since, as a bit of a laugh, otherwise a bunch of uncultured junk. The Daytona Coupe changed all that. It was only at that point that here in the UK that we began to take 'Shelby American' really seriously - as did, perforce, Mr Ferrari.
Good english lesson also for me.[:D]
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I suppose that is not an entirely fair view either. Shelby, Miles and Remington did do a lot of work to make the Cobra race worthy and reliable with the high power output... The 427 was an entirely new design, involving Ford's computers...
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quote:
Originally posted by Louism
Just read what Doug Nye wrote in the TNF forum about a similar question:
Do you have a link to that forum? Thanks
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quote:
Originally posted by A-Snake
Do you have a link to that forum? Thanks
http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=84603&st=0&start=0
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
I suppose that is not an entirely fair view either. Shelby, Miles and Remington did do a lot of work to make the Cobra race worthy and reliable with the high power output... The 427 was an entirely new design, involving Ford's computers...
For the sake of clarity[;)] here is an additional paragraph from Nye on that forum.
"In the AC Ace chassis/body/suspension combination Carroll Shelby had properly identified potential to accommodate Detroit horsepower in style, with reasonably 'modern' road-holding, braking and handling to match - attributes which seemed a mystery to the US industry of the time. AC Cars at Thames Ditton had the capacity to manufacture in the quantity he required. For the fans of these things it was a match wrought in heaven - neither one would have achieved what the hybrid marque did without the other."
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(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/FirstproductionCobraBadge.jpg)
This photo is of the front of CSX 2000 whilst having the engine and gearbox fitted in the US - photo courtesy 'The Shelby American Original Archives'.
The caption in the book says:
a. '.... the first production Cobra'. The factory ledger records the first production car, CSX 2001, was painted in UK whilst CSX 2000 was delivered unpainted. Therefore, the car in the photo is most probably the prototype, which was despatched from Thames Ditton on 20th Feb 1962.
b. 'The AC Badge ... was soon removed'! A second photo, with the Shelby insignia painted on the bare shell, shows the mounting holes for the original AC badge still unfilled. A third photo shows the boot lid with a hole in it where the badge would be fitted.
Safe to say I think the photo above shows how CSX 2000 left England.
I have looked closely at the original of the photo of the car at Thames Ditton and there is only one badge on the nose. It is not clear whether this is 'AC' or 'Cobra'
There is no indication on the photo which car this is, but it must have been between CSX 2001 (July 1962) and 2017 (Sept 1962) as the photo was published with the UK announcement in October 1962. By that time the Cobra model name had been decided.
I have no recollection or record of cars bearing the elongated badge, or more than one badge, on the nose of cars in the UK. Later photos of COB and COX leaf-spring cars for Europe and ROW invariably show the cars with a single round Cobra badge on the nose - even when new outside the Thames Ditton factory.
In conclusion, from this evidence for the early CSX Cobras:
a.Just a few cars, and possibly only one, were despatched from UK with AC badges on the nose.
b. As the Cobra model name had not been decided when CSX 2000 was shipped, it is logical that an AC badge would be fitted by the factory.
c. When despatched from UK, the cars had one badge on the nose and one on the boot.
d. Cars between CSX 2001 and CSX 2054 sold in US had elongated 'AC Shelby Cobra' badges fitted before they were sold.
e.There is no evidence that the elongated badges were fitted in the UK.
The minefield has not been cleared!
John
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Here in Alabama U.S.A. (at least here at my residence) it is great that the cars in question are 'AC Cobras'.
CSX2551 waiting for its engine to get reinstalled, note registration plate.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/AC-COBRA.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by A-Snake
Photos of CSX2001 in the US by the first owner show two emblems.
In my search for original parts I meet lots of people that had hands on the cars back when they were the new sport's in town. In discussing very early cars and emblems one person that has worked on Cobras since new on our east coast said the several early cars completed in Pennsylvania had dual emblems like CSX2001 did when the first owner took it home.
Not everyone knows that not every Cobra was sent to California.
For your amusement....
This particular emblem is believed to have left AC installed on CSX2033. I purchased from a man that claimed that he removed it, put it in his tool box, and installed one of Shelby's emblems in its place during an early rework of the car. I have heard period accounts of these being on USA delivered cars that did not go through California until the large emblem (third one down) came out.
(http:// http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/IMG_1858.jpg )
This emblem was also claimed to have been removed from an early Cobra. In this case the man said he helped work on an early car that was stripped down and converted to racing. The emblem found its way into his tool box and all the wear visible is probably from sliding around in the tool box for decades. My opinion, based on years of asking questions and examining old pictures, is these mainly found their way onto cars finished on our east coast by one of two early dealers.
(http:// http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/S1CS-A-1.jpg )
This one is a new old stock one from Shelby. This design is said to have been created to replace the one above. This what is now believed to be the second "production" version. It has a brushed satin chrome plated finish. One of D. Friedman's images shows an earlier version with a radiused outer facing edge and very fine smooth chrome plating. CSX2055 has ones like shown in Mr. Friedman's image. Once service part supplies ran low subsequent parts went back to bright smooth chromium plating but lacked the rounded border like the one shown by Mr. Friedman. I have come across two former Cobra owners with one each satin and bright service part that they bought from the SAI parts department a few years after the last leaf spring car was completed. The parts department seems to have just sent whatever they put hands one without checking to see if they match. The mismatch is why both former owners never installed them. My opinion here is that this design set appeared mostly on early cars finished in California until the smaller round version below came out.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/S1CS-B.jpg])
This is a mint used emblem I came across in 1971. The man I got it from , a Corvette owner/racer, said he vandalized a new Cobra and kept the emblem as a trophy. This is the Peter Brock design. The majority of U.S.A. delivery Cobra received this design and maybe some early 427 Cobras.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/S1CS-Emblem.jpg])
This is new old stock emblem is a Ford supplied emblem, i.e. one for Ford's large suppliers tooled up for and produced in large quantities, that took the place of the one Peter Brock came up with. This one is similar to the one above but different. Most 427 Cobras got this version. The earliest documented existence of this part I can find is in 1966.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-FRONT.jpg])
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Dan,
That is some great minutia! Thanks for chiming in.
Gus
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Hi Dan,
Lovely reg plate!
Your badge info generally accords with Rinsey Mills' summary (see post above).
One issue seems to be whether early CSX cars cars had one badge or two on the nose.
The photos below, located today, are of an unidentified heavily modified CSX Cobra with competition gear and an unusual hardtop.
There are clearly 2 badges on the nose of this car, similar to the photo of CSX 2001. The resolution is poor, but the top badge seems to be the AC roundal, and the bottom one the elongated 'AC Shelby Cobra' badge.
Clearly, when sold in US some early CSX cars had 2 badges on the nose, with others like the Car and Driver test car just one. Badges are a minefield, but on this evidence AC did seem to have a fair share of the credit in those early days, both on the cars and in the media.
Can anyone identify the car below? The hardtop has a very square profile at the rear, and the roof section looks to be detachable, rather like a Targa top. The bonnet is also unusual.
John
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/UnknownCSXCobra2badges.jpg)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/jospr/UnknownCSXCobra2badgesReduced.jpg)
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John,
That is a photo of CSX2001. Notice the parking lights mounted more outboard to make way for the driving lights. I think I can find some other photos of the car when it was in this guise.
Jim
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Here is a story done by SAAC on CSX2001
http://saac.memberlodge.com/resources/0109/0109-csx2001.pdf
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quote:
Originally posted by A-Snake
Here is a story done by SAAC on CSX2001
http://saac.memberlodge.com/resources/0109/0109-csx2001.pdf
Jim,
That is fantatic- thankyou. Another brick placed back in the wall! The photos also clearly show the twin badges, including the AC Script on the boot!
John
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Okay, more from my collection. This AC script was purchased from someone that claimed it came from a European delivery Cobra that also got a more familar Cobra emblem transplant.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/IMG_2213-Copy.jpg)
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CSX2001, a little better images.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/CSX2001-when-new.jpg)
A person that I find very reliable tells me that Hugas (spelling?) did the first few Cobras his shop completed this way. He tells me that at least two cars got the unusual roll bar seen in the first owner's new CSX2001 home movies. Can't prove it but interesting.
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Can anyone confirm that this was indeed the style used in period?
[/quote]
Dan,
The earliest record I have of the use of script badges of this style and size was on Cobra variants in the 1960s. Its use continued right through AC 428 and AC 3000ME production, that is until about 1987.
Regarding its use on Cobras, the photographic evidence shows that style of badge invariably fitted on the boot lid of COB and COX AC Cobras and AC 289 Sports, and on the front of the AC 289 Sports.
Its use on CSX Cobras is less certain. But, the photos of CSX 2001 (Jim's article page 39) clearly show this style on the boot lid of that car circa 1965, which suggests it may have been original fit in 1962. If so that was probably the first or second example, depending on the factory fit to CSX 2000.
How long that situation continued I don't know, but I would be surprised to find any evidence of an AC badge as original fit on the body of the coil-spring CSX series. The clutch and brake pedals are of course a different matter!
The only example of this badge I have seen off a car came from the boot lid of a AC 3000ME. This was a pressing, held in place by two prongs, not bolted. On that example, there was a muti-digit part number, visible from the reverse side inside one section of the pressing.
John
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Dan,
That is probably as good as any evidence we shall see. The second elongated 'Shelby AC Cobra' badges would have been fitted in US I believe.
From Rinsey Mills' book 'Original AC Ace and Cobra', 45 leaf-spring cars were shipped to the US east coast. Some or all of these may have been dealt with differently to the cars shipped to the west-coast.
John
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I note that two photographs taken by me of CSX 2301 on Pages 56 and 62 have been used without any acknowledgement!!
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quote:
The only example of this badge I have seen off a car came from the boot lid of a AC 3000ME. This was a pressing, held in place by two prongs, not bolted. On that example, there was a muti-digit part number, visible from the reverse side inside one section of the pressing.
I have two of these script badges, given to me by a girl whose father had died. She said they had come from a Cobra he had restored (the worst one, pitted, below, I assumed came from the bonnet and the other the bootlid). Re John's note above, these have three prongs, and no part number inside:
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/P1080852_Small.JPG)
(http://www.seabirding.co.uk/images/P1080853_Small.JPG)
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Here's the web addresses of the home movies of CSX2001 when new.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf9u4kBoYws&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_WH-Y3puA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8IhwInXjpM&feature=related
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quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
I note that two photographs taken by me of CSX 2301 on Pages 56 and 62 have been used without any acknowledgement!!
Did you supply the photos ?
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Here's a Ford in-house film, narrated by and featuring Carroll Shelby.
His short introduction, explaining how he started his manufacturing career, may be a little light on AC's contribution. But bearing in mind the subject was really (at the time this film was made) the future prospects of the GT 40 and Ford racing, I think he can be excused.
It might also help explain the overly AMERICA FIRST!! aspect of the "controversy" regarding the Cobra.
I think he (Shel) comes off pretty well, considering...
(considering it's a scripted sales tool for Ford - I'm sure Shelby didn't actually write the script, though certainly had a hand in it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Pjw6Iiwxg&feature=related
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You can clearly see the AC script at 2:22 on the unfinished nose of the Cobra under construction.
I can't recall for sure but think that the AC script was used on the RS cars. My photos of RS5024 do not show the emblems clearly.
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quote:
Originally posted by aaron
quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
I note that two photographs taken by me of CSX 2301 on Pages 56 and 62 have been used without any acknowledgement!!
Did you supply the photos ?
No! I took the photographs at Phoenix Park, Dublin in 1965. I passed copies on in the 1990s when one of the Radford Racing Cobras, CSX 2260 or CSX 2301, was advertised in Motor Sport.
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
You can clearly see the AC script at 2:22 on the unfinished nose of the Cobra under construction.
I can't recall for sure but think that the AC script was used on the RS cars. My photos of RS5024 do not show the emblems clearly.
The RS cars had the AC roundel, as on most Aces. RS5020 below
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p222/AEX674/RS5020010962.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
I note that two photographs taken by me of CSX 2301 on Pages 56 and 62 have been used without any acknowledgement!!
DAYTONA..
Great photos !! and a great multi-page feature on CSX2031.
Glad someone (Daytona ) captured the moment, without your input a moment in AC History would have come and gone, Never to be appreciated by future custodians of our ACs.... Ace and Cobra..
Appreciated by us all. [;)]....[:)]....[^].
Keith ..[;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
quote:
Originally posted by aaron
quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
I note that two photographs taken by me of CSX 2301 on Pages 56 and 62 have been used without any acknowledgement!!
Did you supply the photos ?
No! I took the photographs at Phoenix Park, Dublin in 1965. I passed copies on in the 1990s when one of the Radford Racing Cobras, CSX 2260 or CSX 2301, was advertised in Motor Sport.
I guess someone else has passed copies of the photos on again,might be worth contacting the guy who ahas put this book together.
Is this book worth buying ?
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This was my opinion:
quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes
Just got the book, gents.
It's a nice lay out and with piccies I have not seen in other publications. It is the "myopic" American view as someone put it before.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, a few too many piccies involving cars owned by Comer and cars driven by Comer. As I mentioned before, I feel this is more to establish Comer than to write a proper historical review on AC and Shelby cobras.
A different angle was to include some of the people from SAAC and look at their POV.
Like Trevor did, a large section in the end of the book discussing the replica/kit industry. I wonder whether this is instigated by Motorbooks as it would open the book up to the large number of Kit owners, who would feel they are finally getting some overdue respect for keeping the dream alive...(I happen to feel that way and was very pleased with Trevor's accounts of the current "Cobra" market)
It is definitely not as detailed as Trevor's book and I think the lay-out is similar.
All 'n all not a bad deal at some 25 bucks (don't know how you can make money on that, as the quality of the print is very nice).
Now I need to make time to read beyond the text that goes with the pictures...
Gus
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[/quote]
Is this book worth buying ?
[/quote]
There are lots of photographs I haven't seen before, they are of excellent quality and well laid out - yes, it is worth buying.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Daytona
Is this book worth buying ?
There are lots of photographs I haven't seen before, they are of excellent quality and well laid out - yes, it is worth buying.[:)]
I agree, some really nice pictures but you should be careful reading the picture caption unless you are interesting in stories about his "beautiful wife" and "fishing". Seems to me a little bit too much self-adulation.
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Got my copy yesterday,looks good value for the money.
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Sadly there will not be any photos of me or my gorgeous wife in my next book. (Despite popular demand :)
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But it's not "that kinda book"[;)]
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I should have said 'Cobra book'. Silly me - but it flushes out the perverts.....
Mind you, the market for motoring books ain't wot it was ;)
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For £23.00 it is very good value for money,personally I dont care if there are a few pics of him and his wife in the book !!