AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum => Topic started by: rstainer on June 03, 2013, 21:18:47
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Aaron Gee sent me this photograph of an FIA Cobra testing at Silverstone three weeks ago:
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/rstainer/MinshawCobra_zps65982427.jpg?t=1370285627)
The cobra is in the style of 39 PH (CS 2131), owned by Jon Minshaw from 02 to 06. 2131's current owner has no knowledge of the car pictured above.
The car's door reads 'Alan Minshaw' but the Minshaws haven't replied to a car identity enquiry.
I'd much appreciate any information that Forum users have or can acquire.
RS
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I saw 39 PH today, and it is alive and well, and currently in Byfleet. Aarons's Silverstone shot looks lovely, but it looks awful new and shiny!
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Somebody brought 39PH for breeding purposes?
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate: Somebody brought 39PH for breeding purposes?
Well you would, wouldn`t you? Breeding stock don`t come much better!
Andy, there aren`t many Cobras that don`t look new & shiny, even the old ones!
Most of the racers look better than new(even the old ones) as they are so pampered compared to their used'n'abused life in period.
Hopefully I might get some info at Cholmondeley, if not before. [:)]
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The car is owned by Alan Minshaw and looked after by Valley Motorsport, Wrexham. Valley grew out of the Demon Tweeks in house race team, Demon being the Minshaw family business.
It would be good if this string could be be kept fairly close its question (information about the Minshaw cobra)and not diverted with philosophical speculation or other observations.
RS
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I would like to point out that I did not take the photo.
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Nice to know I'm becoming philosophical in my old age! I'm been accused of many things in my time, but that's a new one....
Sorry - sliding off track again - bad habit. If I discover anything of a factual nature, I shall return.
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Another shot of the Minshaw Cobra, on track this time, taken from the Sportscar Digest (http://"http://www.sportscardigest.com/hgpca-test-day-silverstone-2013-photo-gallery/") report on the test day:
(http://www.sportscardigest.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_6097.jpg) (http://"http://www.sportscardigest.com/hgpca-test-day-silverstone-2013-photo-gallery/")
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I think we have now established this is a 39PH lookalike replica.
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Have we? What more do we know than in June?
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The register (on the website) sets out the known facts. Aaron's observation is correct.
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There are so many "replicas/copies/ressurections/continuations/ registered as historic vehicles" around around that I sometimes wonder what the name AC actually means and if it has any value when it comes to Cobra's.
I fully understand and the desire to make money and expand a limited supply, but the secrecy around some vehicles, and what seem to me to be deliberate attempts to blur the issue of manufactured date with "historic vehicle registrations" is depressing.
So much so I sometimes think I should dump my MK1V as being a product of an industry trend that disturbs me greatly.
For a long time believer in originality and AC enthusiast, its a depressing situation.
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I've heard that Prozac works well on depression! Seriously though, there will always be those who attempt to turn their home made replicas into bundles of cash, by fudging the truth. It is not just ACs though, as Aston Martins, Ferraris, Jaguars, Bentleys etc all suffer from the same problem. Even buying a MK1 Ford Escort Mexico requires much research as a real one costs 5 times the price of a replica. Then there are fake watches, and perfumes, not to mention ladies handbags and branded clothing. All manufacturers fight hard to protect their brands, but in this world of Eastern sweat shops, it gets more difficult each day. I suggest doing your homework, buying from a reputable seller, and enjoying the fruits of your labours. After you with the Prozac
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Not sure I understand why owning a genuine AC Cobra (MkIV et al) is depressing. I would own one because I want one to drive and because I would enjoy the experience. The fact there are a few less less-than-honest people who attempt to profit from the marque would never deter me. I now know there are dishonest people in every profession, starting at the top level down...but 'twas ever thus!
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FIA Cobra replicas (including clones) are not made 'to make money' or 'attempt to profit' - there's no money in it at all. They are built for two reasons:
- To have much better race performance - a well-constructed replica/clone can be 100kg lighter, 300% stiffer and 50+bhp more powerful than a Cobra in correct period FIA specification
- To enable more aggressive racing by using more expendable machinery.
I don't believe that any user of an FIA replica/clone would add to this list or shorten it. Further, a replica/clone cannot be passed of as an original to a careful buyer; all that's required is a thirty second look at the ACOC or SAAC register.
Finally, any ideas about the Minshaw cobra? I don't think it was raced at all this year.
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[/quote]
We will have to see if the car turns up at a race track next year,
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This car, a Replica of unknown origin first seen at Spa in Sept 2011, carries the identity 'CSX2562'. The original CSX2562, last known owner Shelby American Corp, is believed to have been destroyed in the 60s.
It is driven from time to time by Andrew Haddon and is on the front cover of last month's ACtion .
RS
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It was also co- driven by Shaun Lynn at the Silverstone Classic, and is closer in appearance to his Cobra than it is to 39PH, but maybe similarities are only skin-deep?!
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It is truly amazing that so many street 289 Cobras which were written off in the mid-60's in the USA have been "found" in the UK decades later. And what's more, it turns out they weren't street cars at all - they were FIA-type race cars with split trunk (boot) lids and hard tops and alloy wheels, etc. You might begin to think some of these cars could be utter frauds, or would that be going too far? [xx(]
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My view, if we all understand the origins of the car and history (even if new) I'm cool, you should pay for what it is worth. If a replica is advertised as a true 60's race car with racing history, original chassis / body then that is what it should be, not a replica. My SP250 race car has the original body / chassis (with a few patches due to racing incidents but we know it is the original from 1959 which makes it special (well in my eyes)
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With the FiA HTP, it is quite legal(within racing regulations) to build a brand new Cobra/E-Type/250GTO etc. etc. to original spec, and with the value of original race cars going ever-more stratospheric, it is understandable that one would prefer to race a replica(in the truest sense of the word) than said original, but is it really neccesary to "find" them as Ned describes above? It would certainly ease the differentiation John mentions above!
I`d rather see a full grid of (pukka) replicas, than an empty grid of originals!
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Fully agree, there are so few FIA cobra's from the 60's if one got destroyed it would be a big loss so I can understand the owners view point. My Daimler raced between 1960-64 in over 140+ races and won the national SCCA tight twice in different groups (EP and CP) no other Daimler and very few cars have ever done this, so quite important for me to look after for the future.
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... And congratulations to you for your efforts, even in extremely trying circumstances on occasion! I didn`t realise there was so much racing history to your Daimler, a true legend in it`s own lifetime!!!
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The nub of the matter is: What is historic racing?
The MSA defines it as: “Competitions under a set of rules that preserve the specification of their period and prevent modifications of performance and behaviour which could arise through the application of modern technology.”
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, these considered words are not realised in practice. None of the leading cars are built to correct historical specification: a more-recently constructed cobra can have 65 more bhp, much greater torque, 50+ kg less weight and 300% more stiffness.
This leaves owners of correct cars in a quandry:- Do you improve them?
- Are you willing to tangle with aggressively driven winner-takes-all cars that have no intrinsic historical value?
- Are you happy to remain a mid-field runner?
- Do you restrict yourself to the very limited number of historic events that accord with the MSA’s definition?
- Or do you simply give up?
The majority of newly-issued Cobra FIA HTPs are for cars built in the 21st Century. If you want to race a 21st Century car is it not better to buy one, rather than develop a form of hybrid motorsport that drives out cars built to correct historical specification?
RS
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There is also the matter of appropriating the VIN of a long-lost car to which one has no claim for use on a brand new one. Not an admirable practice if we want to maintain standards in the collector car arena.
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Robin, you raise a good point. My Daimler in period raced with Weber down draft and an MGA slip diff. The car was good for 240BHP, but when we ran at Revival had to put back to Sebring specification (the car raced at Sebring 12Hr in 1960). Look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NseJJ7qiAjM#t=71 go to 1:06 and you will see the Daimler racing, the car also would beat corvette's see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9PlcdfpBIk 1:05.
My experience is the reverse of Cobra increase in performance. I can not remember seeing many Cobra's in period having one wheel off the ground due to stiff chase like modern racing. I personally think everyone should be open then we at least know.
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Gerry, I would suggest the 3 wheeling is more due to springs and roll bars, which competitors are free to modify under the rules. We made a torsional rigidity jig in our workshop, and put our cars on it. Shock horror, that the chassis is a major suspension component. It twisted like a ripe banana. That explained why they work better on tall profile cross plys, than low profile radials. They are much more forgiving if the tyre is not presented squarely to the track as the chassis twists and untwists.
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I’m not sure of this. A ripe banana (a useful analogy) is unlikely to take up three-wheeling no matter how its springs and roll bars are adjusted. What makes it three-wheel is changing the banana itself, adding up to 300% more torsional rigidity. It’s the hybrid banana that drives out the original.
RS
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The art of chassis stiffening was proven at the Revival circa 2003/4/5 when a few Cobras began to be....modified, shall we say....and the lap times of those one or two cars over a (not-so-modified) standard-spec Cobra was notable, by several seconds per lap. The owner of 39PH, a race driver of considerable experience, was a little amazed when a similar car went hurtling past on the outside of a corner, front wheel about six inches clear of the deck. He then realised it was not a level playing field.
If you trawl through the period Shelby American files of Dave Friedman, very few photos show a front wheel off the deck, other than the first race Cobra that was twisting itself into knots! Those were the days before sleeved chassis..
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As Andy suggests, 3 wheeling comes largely down to a difference in front and rear roll stiffnesses. It's true that this is transmitted via the chassis, but even a very flexible chassis (e.g. 500ft-lbs per degree) would only equate to a small fraction of an inch at a wheel under high cornering weight transfer. 3 wheeling spectacles aside, chassis stiffness comes in handy!
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Just for the record, I have several photos of me in the Orange Cobra when I was racing in AMOC Intermarque in the '90s, with the inside front showing an inch of daylight. That was before anyone started mucking about with chassis stiffness. Also I believe I have seen a photo of Bill Bridges' Hairy Canary (one of THE most original Cobras to be found) lifting a front wheel last year at the revival with Ludovic Lindsay at the helm. It was also of interest that our Orange Cobra would trade places with John Pogson in his competition Ferrari F40, which was an out and out racing car. We indeed had a finely honed banana!
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I’m with Trevor on this one. The Friedman/Christy definitive pictorial history, Carroll Shelby's Racing Cobra, has over fifty photos of race Cobras cornering at the limit: not one is three-wheeling.
The MSA’s historic racing definition (earlier in this string) includes “....prevent modifications of performance and behaviour which could arise through the application of modern technology.” I simply do not see how a car that three wheels now but didn’t in period does not have modified behaviour; further, I can see no reason to modify the Cobra's behaviour other than to achieve performance gain.
What, therefore, is historic racing, if it isn’t racing cars as they were? It would be interesting to see a succinct practical definition that its proponents could put, via the MSA, to the FIA.
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I must disagree with the prior note regarding the originality of the Hairy Canary, which was used as an example of an original Cobra that could corner on three wheels. Following its restoration here in the US back in the early 90's, I talked at length with the shop that did the work, and they noted substantial effort had gone into stiffening the chassis at that time. This supports Robin's assertions that the cars simply did not evidence the ability to lift an inside front wheel as originally built.
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I bow to superior knowledge, but also suggest that fresh 2014 Dunlop Ls and Ms have much more grip than tyres in period. That could change the suspension dynamic. Hell I'm sure I have a photo of me in my Ace Bristol on Dunlop L 250x15s with the inside front barely kissing the track, and I guarantee there is absolutely no chassis or body stiffening on my car. Bishop cam steering and 150 bhp is all you need! I'll see if I can post a photo, if that is allowed in the Cobra section.
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Andy.
I have plenty of photos that attest to you ability to lift a wheel in an Ace - though had always put it down to your penchant for pleasing the crowds!
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I think Robin is right. Historic racing has moved from enthusiasts racing old cars to a sort of WW11 re enactment scenario in many ways, with professional drivers mixing it with the amateurs in the top series.
When you see a (admittedly very well driven) Cobra beating GT40's at the LeMans Classic you realise just how far these technically advanced cars have become ie little to do with how they raced in period and would be slaughtered if they were. The spectacle is the greater for it though.
It is possible to build a very stiff chassis that looks original but in fact has stronger, thicker main tubes and gusseting inside. Metallurgy has moved on. Once the end is capped off, no one will know.
On the question of three wheeling, the Hairy Canary was three wheeling on every lap of the Godwood RAC TT, lifting the inner wheel a good 9"" off the ground at Lavant. Many things could be responsible here. Whilst the car is certainly original in terms of the continuous history argument, it has had a good deal of surgery and this is no secret in AC circles. I saw some pictures of it a couple of years ago in the AC Heritage archive that show the 'before'.
However, Andy is right that fresh sticky modern rubber compounds and a certain driving style could produce the desired effect. Also, if you have ever played around with a race car it is surprising the difference that ride heights and spring rates can make, as well as the updated modern dampers that are available with custom valving. The latter can really stiffen a car up. These days there is a lot more understanding of chassis dynamics by professionally prepared Cobra teams than there generally was in the '60's. this knowledge is translating into quicker lap times than in period, although the 'cheat' cars are also benefiting from a little bit more than this.
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"...fresh 2014 Dunlop Ls and Ms have much more grip than tyres in period....that could change the suspension dynamic."
I can't find any evidence to support this suggestion. Dunlop's aim, agreed with the FIA, is to produce a tyre with a performance as close as possible to period tyres. As far as I can see Dunlop's 204 compound does just that.
I cannot find a single modern image of a Cobra made by AC in period running on Dunlop Ms or Ls and three-wheeling that has a correct period chassis and three-point forward-braced roll bar.
All Ned and I can do is examine the available evidence that points to only one conclusion: leaf-spring Cobras did not have the ability to lift an inside front wheel as originally built. Putting it the other way round, if a Cobra is three-wheeling, it is not built to period specification (including Homologation #115 specified modifications); it has performance and/or behaviour modifications through the application of modern technology.
RS
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"...it has performance and/or behaviour modifications through the application of modern technology."
It doesn't automatically follow that modern technology is involved. Understanding of the old technology becomes gradually wider spread over the years, too.
Regarding 3 wheeling, as I explained earlier, simple mathematics shows that chassis stiffness is a very small factor. An infinite increase in stiffness will only increase wheel lifting by a minute amount. I've measured twist on my 2 Litre using the car's static weight to twist on 3 wheels, and this produces 0.1 inch deflection at the wheel. Most car chassis from the 1930s onwards can be made to 3 wheel if you provide a big difference in front and rear roll stiffnesses.
The pertinent question is "why would you want a big difference in front/rear roll stiffness?" It's probably pointless on a beam-axled car. It makes sense on a Lotus Cortina because the front roll-centre is lower than the rear one. On an AC Cobra, it may be a question of sharp handling, balance, etc. Maybe also as a knock-on effect of other mods (old or new tech)?
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Ian,
With respect, this is not the point. The MSA’s historic motorsport definition is very clear: “Competitions under a set of rules that preserve the specification of their period and prevent modifications of performance and behaviour.......”
Three wheeling, no matter how achieved, is a modification in behaviour. There only two ways it could be shown not to be a modification in behaviour:- By providing evidence that Cobras three-wheeled in period, and demonstrating that Friedman/Christy’s 50+ race Cobras cornering at the limit photos don’t show the full story
- By providing evidence that today’s drivers can get their cars to dance in ways that yesterday’s (Bondurant, Sears, Gardner, Miles etc) couldn’t.
To repeat, I simply do not see how a car that three wheels now but didn’t in period does not have modified behaviour; further, I can see no reason to modify the Cobra's behaviour other than to achieve performance gain.
What, therefore, is historic racing, if it isn’t racing cars as they were? Perhaps the three-wheelers (Ian, Andy + any others) could come up with a succinct practical definition that would put this more recent behaviour into the 'historic' category.
RS
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I was simply addressing a technical issue raised by others in this thread, and not the overall topic.