AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => General Forum => Topic started by: cobham cobra on April 14, 2009, 12:19:18
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[:D]This is a link to an article on PistonHeads.com http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=19735
It says AC Cars is to launch a new version of the Cobra this week in Monaco. The car is to feature a removable hardtop with gullwing doors. The article says the body will be aluminium with composite structural elements. The new MkVI will have air-conditioning an engine from a Corvette and brakes from Porsche.
The new model is the result of an alliance between AC and Gullwing GmbH and the cars will be built in Heyda Germany.
The news is all over the interweb today, here are a few more links with Mr Lubinsky's quotes.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/13/old-is-new-again-ac-cars-unveils-cobra-mkvi-in-monaco/
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/04/13/ac-mkvi-recreation-of-the-ac-cobra-being-built-in-germany/
I am saying absolutely nothing[;)]
I will now make a cup of coffee, sit back and look forward to the comments[:D][:D]
John.
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Interesting, I see it has wheel studs with fack spinners [nice touch!]. Will that car in the picture pass the IVA [new SVA] not sure, needs quite a few changes. So I'm assuming the car in the flesh will be different. Is Lubinsky doing a World tour? Brooklands, Frimley, Normandy, Matlia and now German.
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Nope, I'm still saying nothing - just sitting here drinking my coffee - J [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by cobham cobra
Nope, I'm still saying nothing - just sitting here drinking my coffee - J [:)]
Lucky for you...I just spat mine all over the keyboard!!![B)][:0]
Not EVERYBODY seems too impressed with the prospect of the MkVI though, see The Truth About Cars (http://"http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ac-cobra-scam-continues/") website for example. [xx(]
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The exposed boot hinges are another nice touch!!
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quote:
Originally posted by SB7019
The exposed boot hinges are another nice touch!!
On a positive note, no-one will ever get to see them for real!
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Nope, still not saying anything.
And I'm especially not going to say anything about the luggage rack that was such a prominent feature of the MkV. I certainly wouldn't make any comment about using it as a roof-rack because it would limit the gullwing doors............and look silly.....but then again.....[;)]
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The body shape cannot be denied though as one of the best and most copied ever...Congrats Messrs Hurlock
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Trevor, oh Trevor, where for art thou??????
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark IV Trevor, oh Trevor, where for art thou??????
He`s beggared off, allegedly working, for a week!
Now we all know he`s a gentleman of (much)leisure...[;)]
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Well I hope it turns into something positive, lets see if at Monaco tomorrow there is a car to show-off and not just the images we have seen in the Press Release.
It's a shame several of the previous threads are so cynical, ok we know the history but what we don't know is the deal with the Germans. Let's wait and see..........
Terry
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I'm just amazed at the vitriolic posts over on Pistonheads about AC and the MkIV onwards and how the build-quality of the cars is no better than a competant spanner-man & how they are not real AC Cobra's - what bunkum - do people seriously think a buyer is going to be hoodwinked into buying a +50k GBP car by the shining light bathed by the AC name & forgo poor quality workmanship - I think not…..
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I find it strange that there is no announcement on the Official AC Cars website (http://"http://www.acautomotive.info/index.html") about anything to do do with a MkVI, and I found this, from Dave Brookes, who builds Dax replicas for a living:
quote:
Dave Brookes on Pistonheads
"The cheeky bu66ers, the rear screen in their pictures is one that I own the tooling for, even the heated screen electrical connections are visible, and the cut out in the top of the blackout perimiter is still there.
There is only one place in the world you can buy those screens from...... Me, and they haven't been anywhere near. )
Someone did contact my manufacturer a few weeks ago to buy 5, but they were shown the door.
Some serious Photoshop work there, even the body is a Dax and the wheels are image split rims.
It just looks like a mix of the GD top, the Cobratops top and my top all mixed together."
So personally, I don`t believe there is a finished car to be seen in Monaco, only these computer renderings of a modified Dax!!![:(!]
Whilst the quality of build for cars such as the 212, Superblower or CRS should be classed with the MkIV, the MkV is a significantly different matter, and as you said :" ...do people seriously think a buyer is going to be hoodwinked into buying a +50k GBP car by the shining light bathed by the AC name & forgo poor quality workmanship - I think not..."
Nobody IS buying the MkV, for exactly that reason. How many times did we see them punted on eBay, not even making the reserves of $15,000. See This MkV thread (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1143") about the 'no-sale' at Coys & Clive Sutton lumbered with cars that just won`t shift.
Please don`t get me wrong. I would LOVE AC Cars to be resurrected with a good car, a good name, and a good future, but IT AIN`T GONNA HAPPEN with that man running the show. Sorry.
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Well I've made a fresh cup of coffee and look forward to today's comments. So when is Trevor back ?[;)]
BTW - have you heard the one about "how do you make a Maltese cross?"
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I'm confused???? Do these "Mk VI" cars replace the Michigan built alloy cars or the new "Old Ace" replicas? Why no Propane powered Aussie six-bangers like he announced some years back (when he was also gonna import Falcon Utes to the UK under the "Verity" or some such brand?) Why is Shelby no longer buying alloy body/chassis units? Certainly not because the skilled workers have all been made redundant after working without full paychecks?
Will the income from these cars allow the final payments from the 2001/2002 CVA to go to the vendors? Will the deposit taken for a replacement MK IV front clip from a former forum member be repaid? Will the judgements and liens from the Frimly works be settled? I for one am confident!![?]
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Welcome to Germany, AC! Will the Mk VI be the ultimate descendant to the AUTO UNION´s silver arrows? The first cars can be seen in the show room´s right there in Saxonia. Lokk at:
http://www.fahrzeugmanufaktur.de/
Obviously they renamed their company to Gullwing GmbH.
To whom it may concern: The saxonians drink there coffee with a lot of sugar!
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quote:
Originally posted by 1984MkIV: Welcome to Germany, AC!...The first cars can be seen in the show room´s right there in Saxonia....
That looks very much like a MkIV to me...[;)]
(http://www.fahrzeugmanufaktur.de/garbage/51/510906/5630712.JPG) (http://"http://www.fahrzeugmanufaktur.de/index.html")
(Click to go to homepage)
Still no reference to the Gullwing/AC alliance on this site, or on the Gullwing GmBH Website (http://"http://www.gullwing-cars.de/") either (although they do mention a "...Cobra axle, which we integrate since a long time in our special Cobra, which we have built in more than 200 units...) , but a good find, Michael.[:D]
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Nik et al,
if you look at the impressum, you´ll find
Jürgen Mohr
Christian Wolf
as general managers. Christian is known in the german Cobra scene. Horst (the Lightweight Horst) told me, he sold his Nena (german singer) preowned Mk IV to Christian. What I don´t know, is wether Jürgen is related to the Mohr-Cobras (another Fake manufacturer). Well, I can try to phone these guys tomorrow, maybe I´ll get some information (my parents were born in Saxonia, that´s why I understand their accent![;)]). Probably I will share the information with the ones, who will pay the beer when I am in the UK next time[:D]! Be careful, I´m as thursty as our V8 engines!
Michael
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By the way, I found the homepage through this adress which I found in a register:
Gullwing GmbH
Prausitzer Strasse 13-15
01594 Hirschstein
DEUTSCHLAND
Landkreis:Meissen
Regierungsbezirk:Dresden
Bundesland:Sachsen
Land:Deutschland
Telefon: (+49) (035266) 88808
Telefax:(+49) (035266) 88955
Branche: Autohandel; Handel mit Kraftfahrzeugen
Koordinaten:lng: 13.287542; lat: 51.248786
(für Navigationssysteme, Geocoding, Mapping, etc.)
The swiss company is related to the other silver arrow fraction.
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Looks more like a sparrow wing than a gull wing
Eric G
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Does anyone have a report on what happened at Monaco? Did a car show up, or was it smoke and mirrors?
Jay
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What is confusing is the link on
http://www.topmarquesmonaco.com/exhibitors/gullwing.shtml,
which leads to the Suiss Company, whilst the adress is again
COMPANY:
Gullwing GmbH
ADDRESS:
Prausitzer Weg 13-15
01594 Heyda
T: 035266 88 80 8
F: 035266 88 95 5
URL: www.gullwing-cars.de
I´m quite sure somebody put wrong information to the net. There is a lot of junk in the web.
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One of these cars look like a Cobra:
http://www.autoarabia.org/tmm/357/
but the wings are missing[:(].
http://www.indiacar.net/news/n107405.htm mentions Jürgen Mohr as general manager of Gullwing (see above).
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quote:
Originally posted by 1984MkIV
What is confusing is the link on
http://www.topmarquesmonaco.com/exhibitors/gullwing.shtml ,
which leads to the Suiss Company, whilst the adress is again
...Gullwing GmbH...Heyda.
I´m quite sure somebody put wrong information to the net. There is a lot of junk in the web.
Present company excepted! [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by JayEX125...Did a car show up, or was it smoke and mirrors
Bit early yet, but there was a publicity shot on Auto Arabia (http://"http://www.autoarabia.org/articles/357/Top%20Marques%20Monaco%20wows%20the%20local%20press") which clearly shows...a Kirkham?! Certainly ain`t no AC MkVI!!!
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/090309-201620.jpg) (http://"http://www.autoarabia.org/articles/357/Top%20Marques%20Monaco%20wows%20the%20local%20press")
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I thought AC Heritage at Brooklands had the rights to produce new Cobras!!
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The folks standing around all look like waiting to buy the 600+ GTS MkIV version[:D]
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/090309-201620-1.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
I thought AC Heritage at Brooklands had the rights to produce new Cobras!!
I`m pretty sure AC Heritage would be responsible for manufacturing 'Historic' cars bearing the AC name(although not the 'Cobra' name) such as the Ace, MkII & MkIII in Aluminium, as per originals, but they were not involved in the MkV project, nor does it appear they have anything to do with the MkVI.
That said, they did have a couple of MkV`s for sale (http://"http://carandclassic.co.uk/car/C70728/") incomplete, for £23k, or built up to purchaser`s spec. they no longer appear on the AC Heritage Website, (http://"http://www.acheritage.co.uk/") but they are still on Car & Classic (http://"http://carandclassic.co.uk/car/C70728/").
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quote:
Originally posted by 1984MkIV
The folks standing around all look like waiting to buy the 600+ GTS MkIV version[:D]
Oh My Word!!! So they are!
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/090309-201621.jpg)
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For sure Brooklands Motor Company / AC Heritage have the most AC genes of all the guys related to AC. From my point of view they are the legitimate descendants of AC and worth to be supported.
What I liked, was the fact, that the same painter did the paint job on my Mk IV in 1984 working for Brian Angliss as in 2007 working for Steve Gray. That´s what I call British tradition at it´s best!
Not to forget to mention Gerry Hawkridge´s major role in keeping our Cobras alive and running.
These two guys (sorry, I don´t know those, who should be added to this list) do their job by heart. There are to many people envolved into the Cobra scene, who feel better when they are living in the shadow ...
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Nik, another great find in the web. I only miss "Dan Gurney for President" signs.
How about changing the subject of our discussion to the Chevy engine?
This is what I vote for[:p]:
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/FORD_plum.gif)
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Here comes the kit: Take the blue car, put the wings of MEI-GW 198 on it and the engine of the yellow Corvette into it!
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/ac-cobra-001.jpg)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/ac-cobra-002.jpg)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/ac-cobra-003.jpg)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/ac-cobra-004.jpg)
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The correct web address is http://www.accars.de/, that's why you could find no mention on the ac cars web site.
Malta did not manufacture alum bodies, hence MkV's were moulded.
I for one want to be positve and see this work and see MkVI's on the road.
Terry
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me
The correct web address is http://www.accars.de/, that's why you could find no mention on the ac cars web site.
Malta did not manufacture alum bodies, hence MkV's were moulded.
I for one want to be positve and see this work and see MkVI's on the road.
Terry
I too want to be positive, but over the last few years there has been SO much that is not good, it is hard to remain that way.
I`m glad to see that there actually is a car built, and sincerely hope that it is better built than the MkV, time will tell.
I must say, from these photos, the fit & finish appear better than the MkV, but issues of personal taste I will keep to myself.[;)]
Someone should have seen to it that the old AC Automotive website that still suggests AC are a going concern in Malta was taken down, or at least the info on http://www.accars.de/ was carried over, so there is some degree of continuity there.
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Oh all right then .....if everyone else is going to be positive then I want to be positive too[:)]
Regarding Ford vs. Chevy have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB8xCAY-j0k
An electric Cobra with 1000 ft lbs of torque.
New batteries anyone?[:D][:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by cobham cobra
Oh all right then .....if everyone else is going to be positive then I want to be positive too[:)]
Regarding Ford vs. Chevy have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB8xCAY-j0k
An electric Cobra with 1000 ft lbs of torque.
New batteries anyone?[:D][:D]
I wonder how much help Gordon will give me to get one of those, instead of my 55mpg Passat?!
[8D]
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Don't panic, I'm back!!!..............and gone again.......
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quote:
Oh all right then .....if everyone else is going to be positive then I want to be positive
Me too....[:)]
(http://ac428.zoomshare.com/files/CF_24_on_LCD_1_plates_large_pic_.jpg)
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Side vents, boot hinges, profile of rear end etc. look remarkably like a Dax to me.
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Not to be negative, but it strikes me that there are several areas where an SVA (or should than now be 'IVA or BIVA'?) test would be failed, such as lack of fog light, steering wheel 'sharpies', seat back/head restraint heights, indicator side-repeaters & those fake spinners...but it is only a prototype, isn`t it.
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quote:
Originally posted by cobham cobra
Oh all right then .....if everyone else is going to be positive then I want to be positive too[:)]
Regarding Ford vs. Chevy have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB8xCAY-j0k
An electric Cobra with 1000 ft lbs of torque.
New batteries anyone?[:D][:D]
Well, I can follow your train of thoughts from my FORD girl to the you tube video, when I look at the test driver ...[:p]
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I thought that side pies were a "No-No" under most EU rules. Didn't the Vipers need rear exits?
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me
The correct web address is http://www.accars.de/, that's why you could find no mention on the ac cars web site.
Malta did not manufacture alum bodies, hence MkV's were moulded.
I for one want to be positve and see this work and see MkVI's on the road.
Terry
It might work if Mr L's involvement is limited to providing the AC badge.
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Clearly the only part of the car with any connection to AC is the badge. This deal works in the same way that Carroll Shelby allowed Ram to call its replica a Shelby-Ram 427, with profits etc going to Mr.S, which of course is where it all went pear-shaped! AC Cars exists as a business only on paper - where is its factory and its staff, where is its head office? AC will never again build cars, just attach its name to anyone willing to 'do a deal'. And the very best of British luck to all concerned. To produce a statement tht sort-of alludes that AC is back in the car production game is misleading in the extreme, but telling little porkies is what some folk do best.
It's worth repeating that back in 1996, Price Waterhouse sold the ASSETS of the ex-AC company, not the full title as the company was in debt to the tune of £quite a lot. Hence the reason that Ford landed so heavily in the new 'AC' business and swiftly removed the rights to the Cobra title that the new company had not purchased (the much-coveted name not being included in the assets for obvious reasons) and made it 100% clear that no AC product could use the name again. Or else. (Nor anyone else for that matter, not that it has stopped a few other companies based in europe from using the name in advertising literature :-)
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Gentlemen, pardon the intrusion, but it seemed such fun, and educational as a bonus. Trevor and Nik I know through another forum, to the others in this thread, I am a stranger.
Having had a long interest in ACs, including 11 yrs with Autokraft, it would be nice to know the events since 1996.
Is anyone aware of exactly what is going on, and thus, could they explain? I knew of the move to Frimley, then learned about computers and found out about 'Malta'. I know the name Lubinsky, and all that is reported about him. Now I read of AC Heritage, associated with British Heritage, manufacturing Cobras!
This is a polite request by someone who is not in the know, asking someone who is in the know, of a concise definative history of AC since 1996. I accept for legal reasons (!) the word 'alleged' may be used.
Thanks, Peter
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Originally posted by henryst
asking someone who is in the know, of a concise definative history of AC since 1996
1996 Brian is boned out of AC by the bank.
1996 Lubinsky buys "AC"
1997 to present: Downhill with a trail of bruised and battered "Partners. investors, dealers and distributors." Numerous locations let and vacated. Inumerable press releases, "new product announcements", "dealer appointments", "latest deal done", etc.
Do a little googling and the truth will appear......
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quote:
Originally posted by henryst
Gentlemen, pardon the intrusion, but it seemed such fun, and educational as a bonus. Trevor and Nik I know through another forum, to the others in this thread, I am a stranger.
Having had a long interest in ACs, including 11 yrs with Autokraft, it would be nice to know the events since 1996.
Is anyone aware of exactly what is going on, and thus, could they explain? I knew of the move to Frimley, then learned about computers and found out about 'Malta'. I know the name Lubinsky, and all that is reported about him. Now I read of AC Heritage, associated with British Heritage, manufacturing Cobras!
This is a polite request by someone who is not in the know, asking someone who is in the know, of a concise definative history of AC since 1996. I accept for legal reasons (!) the word 'alleged' may be used.
Thanks, Peter
1996 Lubinsky gains control of AC
2001 AC move from Brooklands to a smaller factory at Frimley, Surrey
2005 AC move to Malta to produce AC MkV
2005-6 Commercial deals with Boulder Speedster Company, Autosport Designs and Unique Performance to sell MkV fall through. Plans for new factory at Bridgeport, USA announced but not implemented.
2008 AC factory in Malta closes
2008 Small scale classic Ace and Cobra production announced at AC Heritage (UK) and AC Autokraft (USA)
http://www.acheritage.co.uk/RestorationandNewBuild.html
http://www.acautokraft.com/
2009 Announcement to produce AC MkVI in Germany
http://www.accars,de
If you want a genuine AC, go to AC Heritage.
2008
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
1996 Lubinsky gains control of AC
2001 AC move from Brooklands to a smaller factory at Frimley, Surrey
2005 AC move to Malta to produce AC MkV...
You missed a bit.
2004 AC move from Frimley to Normandy, Guildford, to produce 'recreations' of the RS Ace & MkII/MkIII Cobra...
So, from this:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/frimleybetterdays01.jpg)
...To this:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/Normandy.jpg)
'Affectionately' known as 'The Scout Hut'...
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Hello AC folks,
it´s nice to do wildcatting and fooling around with all of you. Let me remind you, that we are all part of the AC community. What aroused my interest of the Mk VI is the question, what is going on with the brand AC. Even if for sure and naturally there are different opinions who might be the best inheritor of the AC brand it is a matter of fact that the name AC is related to the company who owns the right to use the name.
There may be good times and bad times in the centenarian history of a company, but one of the more important things is that the companies survives.
To cut the long story short, it is time to acquaint you with some facts:
There was a very strong reaction of the press on the AC´s press release – of course there is an unvaining interest in Cobra´s.
The idea of the Mark VI is to build a practicable car (reminds me a little bit of the Superformance Daytona Coupe idea).
How often did you climb in your Cobra with the roof on it? How did you feel? Like a contortionist entering a snake?
So, that´s why the Mk VI will have a Hardtop with “Flügeltüren” (the “Flügeltürer” may be trademarked by Mercedes, the “Gullwing” is trademarked by the Gullwing GmbH). Easy to enter, possibly waterproof and you can go 150 mph with a top on the car. Did you try this with your softtopped Cobra? Carbon will lead to a light hardtop, which is easy to remove.
Does make sense from my point of view.
The body will be made from Carbon like the Mk V.
The Chassis will be lengthened by 2 inch. That doesn´t affect to the shape, but will result in more space for the passengers. There will be a new frame and new axle technology.
The project is still at it´s beginning, that´s why first deliveries will not be within this year. Delivery will be on a first come – first serve basis.
Target is a price below 100k€.
The Chevy engine will be the first choice because of the lower price compared to a Ford engine, the availability of parts and equipment and the better fit (e.g. for the steering).
There are further plans to create a 289 shaped 50th anniversary model in three years.
These are first hand informations from a telephone call to Christian Wolf, general manager of the Gullwing GmbH, who is related to Cobras since 25 years. As I reckoned, Jürgen Mohr, his partner, is the one involved in the Mohr Cobras.
Concerning Greg Lubinski he stated, that he is led by his personal opinion and not by the opinion of others.
I had a very enjoyable call with him and from my point of view, he is a kind person. Because of that and because I like Cobra shaped cars to be alive under the AC badge and I like the Mk VI hardtop and interior design (o.k., 15 inch wheels on my Mk VI), I ended the phone call with my best wishes for the success of the project. And that´s where I stand for.
“Facts” recalled from my memory in all conscience.
What I don´t know and didn´t ask is the relation of the AC Heritage and AC Autokraft activities to the Mk VI project. I guess, these are to totally different things (classic shape AC ACE / Cobra on one hand – modern shape AC Cobra on the other hand; Cobra stands for the body shape not for the Cobra trademark).
Michael
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Hi Michael
If Jurgen Mohr has been talking with Greg Lubinski then I'm obviously on the wrong forum.
However, if he refers to a Mr. A. Lubinski then the comment "he is led by his personal opinion and not by the opinion of others" sums up the current situation perfectly. Couldn't have put it better myself! (can I quote him??)
BTW even refering to the body shape as a 'Cobra' will bring down the big corporate lawyers from Ford. Ford own the name, end of story.
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Trevor,
"LubinskI" or "LubinskY"...?????? And who is "Greg"
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Sorry, my mistake! I correct to "Alan Lubinsky"
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I`m interested to know what the unique process that Gullwing use to manufacture their bodies, described as "Handmade aluminium-hybrid bodies," is. Or is that only for their Merc replica and the Cobra wil be Carbon, as told to Michael, above?
I read Michael`s comment as meaning that Christian Wolf has formed his own opinion about Mr. Lubinsky, rather than relying on heresay & comments from people (like myself, admittedly) with only third-hand knowledge. Whether that constitutes a lack of 'due diligence' or shows a strong belief in his own judgement of character only time will tell.
From that, I can understand Michael getting the feeling that Herr Wolf is a kind person, and I too wish him (and Jurgen Mohr) well for the times ahead.
Maybe we have had it wrong all this time, and the only reason that Mr Lubinsky`s ventures have all failed was that he had the wrong partners.[:0]
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
with only third-hand knowledge. Whether that constitutes a lack of 'due diligence' or shows a strong belief in his own judgement of character only time will tell.
[:0]
But I have "first hand" knowledge. I wish anyone involved good luck..................they'll need it!
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
I`m interested to know what the unique process that Gullwing use to manufacture their bodies, described as "Handmade aluminium-hybrid bodies," is. Or is that only for their Merc replica and the Cobra wil be Carbon, as told to Michael, above?
I read Michael`s comment as meaning that Christian Wolf has formed his own opinion about Mr. Lubinsky, rather than relying on heresay & comments from people (like myself, admittedly) with only third-hand knowledge. Whether that constitutes a lack of 'due diligence' or shows a strong belief in his own judgement of character only time will tell.
That´s exactly what I understood.
quote:
From that, I can understand Michael getting the feeling that Herr Wolf is a kind person, and I too wish him (and Jurgen Mohr) well for the times ahead.
Maybe we have had it wrong all this time, and the only reason that Mr Lubinsky`s ventures have all failed was that he had the wrong partners.[:0]
To be honest, there weren´t so many successes in AC´s last 50 year´s history. One sucess were Brian Angliss´ cars, and I´m happy to have one because of the built quality.
But I have confidence in the capability of the german´s building cars [:)]. Let´s see what the new episode in the miraculous AC and Cobra wildlife will bring to us.
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I'm still saying nothing, this is only a suggestion http://www.joeharmondesign.com/
[;)][;)]
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This may be one of those cases for the enthusiast world to not set their expectations too high....less disappointment; though I think we all want the marque to live; that way.
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quote:
Originally posted by 1984MkIV
Hello AC folks,
it´s nice to do wildcatting and fooling around with all of you. Let me remind you, that we are all part of the AC community. What aroused my interest of the Mk VI is the question, what is going on with the brand AC. Even if for sure and naturally there are different opinions who might be the best inheritor of the AC brand it is a matter of fact that the name AC is related to the company who owns the right to use the name.
There may be good times and bad times in the centenarian history of a company, but one of the more important things is that the companies survives.
To cut the long story short, it is time to acquaint you with some facts:
There was a very strong reaction of the press on the AC´s press release – of course there is an unvaining interest in Cobra´s.
The idea of the Mark VI is to build a practicable car (reminds me a little bit of the Superformance Daytona Coupe idea).
How often did you climb in your Cobra with the roof on it? How did you feel? Like a contortionist entering a snake?
So, that´s why the Mk VI will have a Hardtop with “Flügeltüren” (the “Flügeltürer” may be trademarked by Mercedes, the “Gullwing” is trademarked by the Gullwing GmbH). Easy to enter, possibly waterproof and you can go 150 mph with a top on the car. Did you try this with your softtopped Cobra? Carbon will lead to a light hardtop, which is easy to remove.
Does make sense from my point of view.
The body will be made from Carbon like the Mk V.
The Chassis will be lengthened by 2 inch. That doesn´t affect to the shape, but will result in more space for the passengers. There will be a new frame and new axle technology.
The project is still at it´s beginning, that´s why first deliveries will not be within this year. Delivery will be on a first come – first serve basis.
Target is a price below 100k€.
The Chevy engine will be the first choice because of the lower price compared to a Ford engine, the availability of parts and equipment and the better fit (e.g. for the steering).
There are further plans to create a 289 shaped 50th anniversary model in three years.
These are first hand informations from a telephone call to Christian Wolf, general manager of the Gullwing GmbH, who is related to Cobras since 25 years. As I reckoned, Jürgen Mohr, his partner, is the one involved in the Mohr Cobras.
Concerning Greg Lubinski he stated, that he is led by his personal opinion and not by the opinion of others.
I had a very enjoyable call with him and from my point of view, he is a kind person. Because of that and because I like Cobra shaped cars to be alive under the AC badge and I like the Mk VI hardtop and interior design (o.k., 15 inch wheels on my Mk VI), I ended the phone call with my best wishes for the success of the project. And that´s where I stand for.
“Facts” recalled from my memory in all conscience.
What I don´t know and didn´t ask is the relation of the AC Heritage and AC Autokraft activities to the Mk VI project. I guess, these are to totally different things (classic shape AC ACE / Cobra on one hand – modern shape AC Cobra on the other hand; Cobra stands for the body shape not for the Cobra trademark).
Michael
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I would suggest that since Mr Shelby referred to his Cooper Monaco cars with Ford engines as 'King Cobras' that the Cobra name does not stand for the body shape, though most folk, on hearing the name, will indeed visualise an AC body and chassis with a big American engine.
Peter
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excellent point!
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quote:
Originally posted by henryst
I would suggest that since Mr Shelby referred to his Cooper Monaco cars with Ford engines as 'King Cobras' that the Cobra name does not stand for the body shape, though most folk, on hearing the name, will indeed visualise an AC body and chassis with a big American engine.
Peter
May I kindly remind you that it´s me who was given the honour of becoming Pedant of the Month in February 2009 in C&SC and ask you to deference respect to that fact when posting your comments [:(!]!!!
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/1984MkIV/Bild092.jpg)
[^][;)][:)]
Cheers
Michael
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Well, I would say 'Hats off to Michael!'...but that`s not quite in keeping, is it?!
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Heritage
Ac-tions speak Louder than words .....Give the company a chance to evolve , We would certainly assist if it helped the brand back into the premiership of Auto production and give you guys something to be proud of ...... Our Ac Heritage Brooklands venture 'Project New Era'.... will ADD value to all things AC. We must look through the telescope from the other end [:D]
I agree totally with half of what you are saying. [;)]
The AC Heritage Project(which I will visit this year) is a fantastic Showcase for AC, and a venture of which to be rightly proud,
but personally I don`t see re-badging a German-built Kitcar does anything positive for the AC name, history or future.
There are a number of you in the industry (Brooklands Motor Company, Gerry Hawkridge, Lawrie Kett, Robin Woolmer etc.{apologies for ommisions})
who truly carry the torch for AC, but until there are significant changes at the highest level, I can`t see 'the current AC' being worthy of that,
even when viewed from the correct end of the Hubble telescope [:(].
It saddens me to say it, as a life-long enthusiast of the marque, and I am by no means knocking for knocking`s sake, but the company named AC bears so little resemblance to the 'real' AC we know and love as to be unrecognisable, and I can`t see a way to bring it back. [xx(]
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Correction:
Shelby did not name it the King Cobra, that term was coined by the public and/or press.
It's been an interesting read! Have any of you ever considered inviting comment from either Lubinsky or Ac Heritage? Or has commentary been invited, but not granted? I can appreciate all of the laughter and comments, but there is only one owner of the brand, factory included or not and I believe Steve Grey is the owner of the "official" outlet and repair facility. I can appreciate the skepticism, there is definitely a nice "paper trail" online of questionable past events. But, as a club, representing the brand, is it not better to try to embrace and collaborate?
Gus
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You'd think. However, the modern expression 'public relations' has not filtered through to a lot of folk. Sometimes the silence can be deafening....
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Meyjes...Have any of you ever considered inviting comment from either Lubinsky or Ac Heritage?...Gus
The posts on this site from user "AC Heritage", such as this one:
quote:
Originally posted by AC Heritage - 11 May 2009 : Ac-tions speak Louder than words .....Give the company a chance to evolve , We would certainly assist if it helped the brand back into the premiership of Auto production and give you guys something to be proud of ...... Our Ac Heritage Brooklands venture 'Project New Era'.... will ADD value to all things AC. We must look through the telescope from the other end
...Are indeed from Steve Gray, for and as AC Heritage, as you describe.
As for 'Factory' input or comment...John Owen posted on a few occasions regarding the Malta 'era', but other than that, (http://www.chessandpoker.com/forums/images/smilies/tumbleweed.gif).
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The latest (August) edition of Octane magazine announces two "new" Cobras. Pages 12 to 13 announce the Carroll Shelby sanctioned South African built Superormance MkIII and the AC Cars MkVI.
Pages 58 to 62 have a road test on the MkVI a write-up of the factory in Heyda near Dresden and an interview with Jurgen Mohr - AC Car's commercial director.
I have also spoken with Keith Adams today, he's the assistant editor with Octane and he sounded very impressed with the company, the factory set-up and the car he drove.
Cheers - John.
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quote:
It saddens me to say it, as a life-long enthusiast of the marque, and I am by no means knocking for knocking`s sake, but the company named AC bears so little resemblance to the 'real' AC we know and love as to be unrecognisable, and I can`t see a way to bring it back.
What's a 'real'AC, because I'm sure my idea/interpretation will differ from many other owners. Do you consider cars made by AC (Scotland) plc as 'real' ACs? Don't compare the compaines just the term a real AC. I consider the cars built in Malta and those from Germany as real ACs
Terry
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quote:
Originally posted by terry3000me:quote:
It saddens me to say it, as a life-long enthusiast of the marque, and I am by no means knocking for knocking`s sake, but the company named AC bears so little resemblance to the 'real' AC we know and love as to be unrecognisable, and I can`t see a way to bring it back.
What's a 'real'AC, because I'm sure my idea/interpretation will differ from many other owners. Do you consider cars made by AC (Scotland) plc as 'real' ACs? Don't compare the compaines just the term a real AC. I consider the cars built in Malta and those from Germany as real ACs
Terry
Hi Terry.
I certainly do consider Scottish built ME`s to be 'real' AC`s, as they were basically a shift of production of the 'then' current AC designed product.
As AC moved from the Hurlock era, via Autokraft to Frimley, there was still a tangible 'bloodline', but by the time we get to the Frimley/Normandy stage, that link has become watered down, albeit that AC was still (but only just!) a manufacturer at this point, which to me makes these cars 'Real' AC`s...Even the Maltese MkV`s were (To a greater or lesser degree, in my humble opinion.)still an AC product, just made somewhere else. Since the closure of the Maltese factory unit, AC is a name, on paper, but not a manufacturer.
But now, we have a well-established Cobra replica being built by (by all accounts) an excellent and respected firm, being rebadged as an AC, in much the same way that the Smart Roadster (http://"http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/First-Official-Pictures/AC-Ace/") was intended to be several years ago.(What ever happened to Project Kimber?)
Carroll Shelby now endorses the Superformance Daytona Coupé and Cobra Roadster, but just because he puts his name to them, does that make them a 'Shelby' product? Personally, I say, No. It`s a paper exercise, as is Badging a Mohr(Gullwing GmbH) Cobra replica as an AC.
Should, for example, AC have entered into this partnership not with Gullwing GmbH in Heyda, but instead with Pilgrim in Sussex, who make the 'Sumo' Cobra replica, would we recognise that from henceforth as a 'real' AC?
Again, Personally, I say no.
In a similar vein, The Brabham family took exception to their name being used for the "Formtech" GmbH (formerly Super Aguri) entry into the 2010 Formula 1 championships.
but each to their own, and whilst I`m happy to defend my opinion, I have no desire to force it upon anyone, and can happily agree to disagree.[:D]
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I casting my vote in favour of the above posting - and then some!! Not that I'd ever make that public knowledge of course :-)
I also favour erasing the 'Malta/Mk5' two-step from history as that was nobodys finest hour. The '5' thing was only classified as a car as it had a wheel at each corner, albeit temporarily....
And badge engineering is just badge engineering.
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Nik,
Nicely put.
John.
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and well thought out!
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quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Legate
I casting my vote in favour of the above posting - and then some!! Not that I'd ever make that public knowledge of course :-)
I also favour erasing the 'Malta/Mk5' two-step from history as that was nobodys finest hour. The '5' thing was only classified as a car as it had a wheel at each corner, albeit temporarily....
And badge engineering is just badge engineering.
Hmmmm... What about slapping an AC badge on a Kirkham? Now that would be the closest thing to the Angliss era that you can get these days. Oh, hasn’t Shelby already done that? I guess badge engineering is badge engineering no matter who does it.
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There's a lot of engineering about!
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Originally posted by Trevor Legate
There's a lot of engineering about!
This is a note I have sent to the editor of Octane today.
Dear Mr Coucher,
The latest AC Mk V1 and the curse of the Cobra.
I read your recent article about the AC Mark V1 and was surprised that there was no mention of the most recent predecessor the AC Mk V. In fact you speak of predecessors and refer to the mark IV but nothing about the Mark V.
Whilst the prospect of another ‘new AC’ is of course exciting, you have done your readers a disservice by omitting any overview or the history and in particular the recent past, i.e. the Malta period. As the official distributor and UK dealer for the Mark V I am well qualified to fill you in on this troubled chapter in the chequered history of the AC and the Cobra. From the various company failures to the legal wrangles even with the great Carroll Shelby personally.
Back in 2005 there were similar fanfares when having gone bust in the UK , Alan Lubinsky brought about the transfer of the old presses to Malta where with the help of the government of Malta a 40,000 square foot factory was the base were the Mark V was to be built. As a petrol head motor dealer and a genuine Cobra enthusiast I went out to Malta to find that there was much promise and seemingly the resources to build a modern Cobra. The Mk V also had more legroom and power steering. Notwithstanding the very public chequered past I agreed to become the UK distributor. Regretfully after bringing just 3 of these cars into the UK it became clear that there would be much remedial work to bring these up to a condition that we could contemplate selling on as a functional motorcar. It has taken me 2 years and many thousands of pounds with established Cobra specialists to enable all 3 cars to be sold. The factory seemed always underfunded and closed down. It was reported in the Maltese Star that Alan Lubinsky had fled the country and was being pursued for 500K Euros lost by the Maltese government. I was told that the AC brand was warehoused in an American company. So it figured that it would be reapplied to another ‘Cobra’. I never heard from Lubinsky again until I bumped into him and the Gull Wing crew at the recent Top Marques show in Monaco. The car you have road tested was there also not with the Gull Wing roof . That does look like a great idea and would love to see one in the flesh.
Most Cobra aficionados would agree that it was the Mark III that was the finest hour for the Cobra and it is this that most replica Cobras and most iconic with the side exhausted 427. In your short leader article you refer to the ‘Superformance Cobras’. Globally there are two Cobra replica bodies that are well regarded, the Superformance and the Kirkham.
Certainly the Superformance body and rolling chassis is first class and is manufactured in South Africa in a factory led by enthusiast Jimmy Price. This high quality composite body is now used by Carroll Shelby in the US to install the drive train and sell as a Shelby continuation Cobra. Equally the Superformance rolling chassis is completed into a turn key car in many countries. We are in the throws of selling one for a client at present and it is a solid well built body. New Superformance Cobras imported from the USA can be bought from around £60K LHD and the UK RHD supplied cars from £69K.
Kirkham manufacturer a very high quality pressed aluminium body in a former Polish military aircraft factory. Most of these bodies go the USA. These end up in finished cars from around £70K
Finally a UK Cobra manufacturer Gardner Douglas should not be forgotten. They make their own excellent get coat body and fit the same Corvette LS 6.2 motor that Gull Wing are going to fit to the new AC. Gardener Douglas actually carried out essential works to one of the AC Mk V’s we had and they are a first class organisation. They offer finished cars from £50K.
We will continue to sell Cobras either classic original cars or some of these very high quality replicas. We are yet to hear formally about the Mark V1 but the suggested price of £93500 seems to represent over £30K more that an excellent replica which seems a high price to pay for a stick on AC badge . Then that is I suppose the royalty for the brand. Let’s hope that the Gull Wing team are well enough funded for the car to be built and succeed although I am not sure how many takers there will be at that price point.
For details of Cobras we have sold recently see
http://www.clivesutton.co.uk/carsavailable/cobra.php
Any queries please call.
Kind Regards
Clive
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Mr. Sutton,
May I say you are rather more diplomatic in the description of your dealings with "AC" than say, Duncan Hamilton was. Or for that that matter, the aforementioned Mr. Price who's quote regarding Mr. Lubinsky to the New York Times was "I would never, ever recommend him to anyone for anything" after being burned twice.....
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Thanks for sharing the contents of your letter with us, Clive.
Diplomatic, as Rick (MarkIV)says, but candid, too. Maybe a shock or 2 there for some!
Can we assume that you may not be acting as an agent for the MkVI?
It would be interesting to know what (if any) differences there are between the MkVI & the 'Mohr' Gullwing Cobra, and what was the pricing of it before the AC 'alliance'?
I presume that one can no longer buy a Gullwing Cobra, and I have to agree with Clive`s opinion that they may well be pricing themselves out of the market...and who better to judge the value of the 'premium' of the AC badge.
Again, it`s time to draw up a seat, settle in, & see where this chapter of recent AC histery History leads.
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Diplomatic ; Maybe ! This is a factual response to a magasine who have covered the 'new MkV1' in a vanilla style and as i am 'still contractually' the UK distributor for AC (albeit with no product to distribute) I had to ensure that the letter was not'sour grapes' or potentially libelious. There are many things that could be said about Lubinsky but that is not my style. Try wikipedia and the history of AC there is much there!
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However good it may be both the price and the connection with previous models will be stumbling blocks.No mention of the ever faithful John Owen the former UK engineer whose die hard loyalty to the brand and brand owner caused him so much personal grief than when I last saw him when he flew into the UK to try and get one of the my 3 Mark V's running (unsuccesfully!) he cut a forlorn Gollum like figure.. Ah the venom of the Cobra !
quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Thanks for sharing the contents of your letter with us, Clive.
Diplomatic, as Rick (MarkIV)says, but candid, too. Maybe a shock or 2 there for some!
Can we assume that you may not be acting as an agent for the MkVI?
It would be interesting to know what (if any) differences there are between the MkVI & the 'Mohr' Gullwing Cobra, and what was the pricing of it before the AC 'alliance'?
I presume that one can no longer buy a Gullwing Cobra, and I have to agree with Clive`s opinion that they may well be pricing themselves out of the market...and who better to judge the value of the 'premium' of the AC badge.
Again, it`s time to draw up a seat, settle in, & see where this chapter of recent AC histery History leads.
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It wasn't close contact with the 'Cobra' (sic) that created such misery - only people can do that....
And the very best of luck to the good folk at Gullwing. Methinks they'll need it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Clive Sutton
Diplomatic ; Maybe ! This is a factual response to a magasine who have covered the 'new MkV1' in a vanilla style and as i am 'still contractually' the UK distributor for AC (albeit with no product to distribute) I had to ensure that the letter was not'sour grapes' or potentially libelious. There are many things that could be said about Lubinsky but that is not my style. Try wikipedia and the history of AC there is much there!
And there is a lot of cr*p on the Wilkipedia website,concerning the Cobra !!...[:)]
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Having read the many posts on this topic I would like to add my small thoughts on one or two of the statements made. Essentially, I believe Mr. John Owen always tried his best and was a hugely loyal employee and supporter of the AC brand. He also did a great job with the CRS and Superblower models, however each has their detractions. However the Mk V cars were of a very poor build standard and cannot be in anyway be compared to the two model I have just mentioned. I know, because I critiqued two when they were are Gerry Hawkriges premises. They were hand lay-up carbon/fibreglass mating which lacked any consistancy of thickness and subsequently led to uneven and very poor panel gaps and finish. The general build quality was also sub-standard. I did not drive one so cannot comment upon that part of them, however from the build quality as delivered would decline such a task if offered. The extensive remedial work subsequently carried out may have made them a better product, but I have not seen one since.
Should it not be considered by other AC Club members that the last of the true Factory production built cars died with the CRS and Superblower models? One note I read was also about the Superformance Cobra which is hugely popular in the States and looking at one recently, offered a very well built and finished product to a very high standard. However it has one huge problem, its body shape is very wrong and proportionally incorrect, especially when you compare it with a MkIV Lightweight which is probably the best looking of the late generation cars. This leads us on finally to the MkVI, based upon my earlier question, should not a real AC be made in England using a Ford engine and built by the same group of talented men/women who built the product up to 2002?
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I am sure you are right about John Owen's loyalty and support to the AC brand as he was the sole AC DNA'd employee in Malta.
You are correct that 2 of the Mark V's were at Hawk for a while and Gerry did do some initial work on one of the cars. However we used about 5 specialists to do various works to the vehicles and certainly 2 of the cars ended up in a very acceptable condition.Not comparable to the earlier cars but to a standard that we were happy to sell to a retail customer. The remaining vehicle was much improved and 'functional' but we disposed of it by auction .
Whereever an AC is manufactured, there is a large market as we discovered when we'launched the Mark V' but found we couldnt deliver them a properly built car by a properly funded manufacturer. I have a fair size database of regular sports/luxury car owners who would jump at the chance.. Alas they will probably never realise their interest..
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
Having read the many posts on this topic I would like to add my small thoughts on one or two of the statements made. Essentially, I believe Mr. John Owen always tried his best and was a hugely loyal employee and supporter of the AC brand. He also did a great job with the CRS and Superblower models, however each has their detractions. However the Mk V cars were of a very poor build standard and cannot be in anyway be compared to the two model I have just mentioned. I know, because I critiqued two when they were are Gerry Hawkriges premises. They were hand lay-up carbon/fibreglass mating which lacked any consistancy of thickness and subsequently led to uneven and very poor panel gaps and finish. The general build quality was also sub-standard. I did not drive one so cannot comment upon that part of them, however from the build quality as delivered would decline such a task if offered. The extensive remedial work subsequently carried out may have made them a better product, but I have not seen one since.
Should it not be considered by other AC Club members that the last of the true Factory production built cars died with the CRS and Superblower models? One note I read was also about the Superformance Cobra which is hugely popular in the States and looking at one recently, offered a very well built and finished product to a very high standard. However it has one huge problem, its body shape is very wrong and proportionally incorrect, especially when you compare it with a MkIV Lightweight which is probably the best looking of the late generation cars. This leads us on finally to the MkVI, based upon my earlier question, should not a real AC be made in England using a Ford engine and built by the same group of talented men/women who built the product up to 2002?
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by SB7019
The exposed boot hinges are another nice touch!!
On a positive note, no-one will ever get to see them for real!
Famous last words Nick, you saw one in the flesh today !!
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
......
But now, we have a well-established Cobra replica being built by (by all accounts) an excellent and respected firm, being rebadged as an AC, in much the same way that the Smart Roadster (http://"http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/First-Official-Pictures/AC-Ace/") was intended to be several years ago.(What ever happened to Project Kimber?)
Carroll Shelby now endorses the Superformance Daytona Coupé and Cobra Roadster, but just because he puts his name to them, does that make them a 'Shelby' product? Personally, I say, No. It`s a paper exercise, as is Badging a Mohr(Gullwing GmbH) Cobra replica as an AC.
Should, for example, AC have entered into this partnership not with Gullwing GmbH in Heyda, but instead with Pilgrim in Sussex, who make the 'Sumo' Cobra replica, would we recognise that from henceforth as a 'real' AC?
Again, Personally, I say no.
.......
Thanks Nik, one could not express it better!
I owned a Mohr replica end of the nineties. Good car. While looking for a replacement in 2001, I had the opportunity to test drive a few of the better made German replicas. CN was a top quality manufacturer at the time and I believe they still are today. Very similar to the Mohr, likely to use UK made chassis and suspension components. These are superior motorcars, also regarding handling. This was eight years ago. They have even certainly improved since.
Nevertheless I didn't buy one as I found the MkIV in 2002 (just marginally more expensive than a good new replica at the time) and this being a true AC.
However good a Mohr may be today, putting an AC badge on it does not make it an AC.
I'ld rather put my money into a high quality Surrey made continuation Cobra produced by the AC Heritage venture.
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Ok...Several points to address here!
Aaron, yes. I take it all back. Well, no actually.[:p] My opinion that 'AC' wouldn`t be able to build another car successfully still stands, BUT I said that before it was clear that the respected German company would be building the MkVI on their proven replica platform.
John Owen was at the ACOC 60th Anniversay meeting with Alan Lubinsky & Jurgen Mohr,although I don`t think they ventured down the hill from the AC Heritage centre where a Mercedes replica & the MkVI were on display) and looked well and at ease, not at all Gollum-like!
Jurgen Mohr was pleasant to chat with, explaining to me many(too many for me to keep track of!)of the improvements and developments made to what was originally the Dax Supertube upon which his respected replica is based. Now making their own uprights & wishbones, using a 'vastly' superior diff, sat nav, traction control, aircon, even the door latches are of their own making; Jurgen Mohr has my respect and I certainly wish him well.
Having seen the MkVI put through it`s paces at Mercedes Benz Brooklands track, it certainly appears to perform well, but you could build 2 very nice Dax` for the same money, or have a Gardner Douglas with the same engine, or a Kirkham and change...[:)]
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It has already been established that the new MkVI is based upon a Dax supertube chassis with various suspension and braking upgrades along with a Chrevrolet engine. It is to be built by a company of some repute and skill in its field of replicas. These being the facts, it must therefore be asked that the vehicle being named a MkVI must be a new version of an already established car with a continuous blood-line back to the original 62 first build car. However the most important fact of blood-line is not there, because the new vehicle shares no similarities with the models that precede it. However good a car it may be or become it is not a new version of an already existing car.
I recently took my CRS to the Octane photoshoot and had an opportunity to view the MkVI. There were an excellent number of variants of the Cobra marque from an early MkII up to a Superblower and my CRS. There were also two new superb 427 cars built by AC heritage. It was very obvious to all who looked that the shape of the larger bodied AC cars, that each had a continuity in shape and form from the beautiful aluminum 427 cars, to the Lightweights/CRS and Superblower models and back to the CSX car. Each of these genuine cars also had the most impeccable overall finish. However this was not the case with the MkVI which had very odd proportions which in my opinion was very unflattering and did not look anything like previous versions. I'm sure this styling is intentional but it did the car no favours. Also the car lacked the bodily finish one has come to expect from any previous AC built product. Again the car seen may be a pre-production car and this may improve. Surely this new car would be better sold with its own name rather hanging off the coat-tails of its genuine AC predecessors.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68...John Owen was at the ACOC 60th Anniversay meeting with Alan Lubinsky & Jurgen Mohr,although I don`t think they ventured down the hill from the AC Heritage centre...
My apologies, I do these chaps a disservice!
Fancy a game of 'Where`s Wally?' Photo courtesy of Peter de Rousset-Hall(via Cobham!), I was obviously far too busy with Kevin Kivlochan to notice Alan Lubinsky, Jurgen Mohr & (possibly)John Owen looking around the ME`s.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3471/3728407201_2288ac045f_o.jpg)
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
There were also two new superb 427 cars built by AC heritage.
Are these AC Heritage cars genuine ACs - do they have the rights to use the AC badge?
It seems very strange that there are effectively two AC companies - one in the UK and one in Germany!
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Hmm, all these places where all these AC's have been made.
No-one has yet mentioned the MEs made in the old Cooper works at Byfleet.
Peter
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Yes, I agree, and no one has as yet even given a thought to what the MKVII may look like.
Maybe Mr Lubinsky is just trying to create media attention and provoke discussion before launching the real deal!!!!!!!
I found this photo in a secret location file that may just hint to future production.
It certainly has a hint of retro style.......
But a more modern twist and paint scheme have been added........
The bonnet scoop and roll bar you may say are older features from previous models, but they do help to give the car a more modern look......
Its smaller without the refined lines.......
But much more frugal than previous cars.......
Alledgedly even cheaper to run than a "Smart" car!
Maybe production for this could be a winner!!!!
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt244/ak1023/MKVI.jpg)
[8D]
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Here's the link to the online version of the 'Octane' article:
http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/news/octanenews/238744/ac_mkvi.html
And a few photos of the Mk VI from the same article:
(http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318592_25.jpg )
(http:// http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318598_25.jpg )
(http:// http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318595_25.jpg )
(http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318589_25.jpg )
(http:// http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318586_25.jpg )
(http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318583_25.jpg )
(http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318580_25.jpg )
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WOW...This must mean there are 2 of them, at least!
The MkVI that was at Brooklands was registered MEI 06012.
Of course, designs change from time to time, and it was only a few years ago that the 'AC Mk6' was intended to look like this,
when manufactured in Connecticut and Malta:
(http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/AC/76551255350.jpg)(http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/AC/76551256540.jpg)
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no this are red german dealer number plates with 06...., you can put them on every car you want, so it can be the same car.
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quote:
Originally posted by AKL 1333no this are red german dealer number plates with 06...., you can put them on every car you want, so it can be the same car.
Aaah, thanks for that, Jürgen. So it is THE MkVI rather than 'a' MkVI!
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner-Stevens
I recently took my CRS to the Octane photoshoot and had an opportunity to view the MkVI. There were an excellent number of variants of the Cobra marque from an early MkII up to a Superblower and my CRS. There were also two new superb 427 cars built by AC heritage. It was very obvious to all who looked that the shape of the larger bodied AC cars, that each had a continuity in shape and form from the beautiful aluminum 427 cars, to the Lightweights/CRS and Superblower models and back to the CSX car. Each of these genuine cars also had the most impeccable overall finish.
Not forgetting the original COB and COX cars!
I'm not sure about the continuity /genuine argument - there was a 12 year gap between AC stopping production of the 289 Sports and Autokraft starting production of the MkIV. Just as the early MkIV was an Autokraft badged as an AC, so the MkVI is a Gullwing badged as an AC! And the very earliest Autokraft efforts weren't even AC badged!
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[/quote]
Not forgetting the original COB and COX cars!
I'm not sure about the continuity /genuine argument - there was a 12 year gap between AC stopping production of the 289 Sports and Autokraft starting production of the MkIV. Just as the early MkIV was an Autokraft badged as an AC, so the MkVI is a Gullwing badged as an AC! And the very earliest Autokraft efforts weren't even AC badged!
[/quote]
Strangely a certain car from the 70's wasn't badged, but nobody ever doubts that the "246 Dino" was a Ferrari.
The MKIV is in a different league and has far more pedigree than what is currently being proposed. My car for instance was produced while the Hurlocks were still involved with AC, and produced with there blessing and licence.
I have to say its a very, very strange statement from you.
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You can see it in this way, but this is only the half of the truth, the MKIV is made on the original toolings, sometimes by the the same men with the original technics of the 60th Cobras, it is powered by Ford and its also Made in England, the only difference is that its made in Brooklands, just ten miles from Thames Ditton and that the Owner of the company was not Mr. Hurlock, it was Brian Angliss. In my opinion that is not comparible with the MKVI or the MKV. They are completly different from the CSX or COB cars.
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quote:
Originally posted by AKL 1333
You can see it in this way, but this is only the half of the truth, the MKIV is made on the original toolings, sometimes by the the same men with the original technics of the 60th Cobras, it is powered by Ford and its also Made in England, the only difference is that its made in Brooklands, just ten miles from Thames Ditton and that the Owner of the company was not Mr. Hurlock, it was Brian Angliss. In my opinion that is not comparible with the MKVI or the MKV. They are completly different from the CSX or COB cars.
There were no ex-AC panel men at Autokraft, to the best of my knowledge. Only one ex-Thames Ditton man was employed, Gene Carter, who did tube bending and welding. Many of the body bucks were indeed ex-AC, but some were new. Two AC employees came to Autokraft when ACs (20th Century) were packing up, one to finish wheelchairs, one to run the 'AC' stores. A nice chap called Brian. Many Autokraft men were ex-Panther.
It should be remembered of course that Autokraft used the AC name legally for a while, after which they were for a time joint owners of that company with Ford (who I believe had a majority shareholding) and the Hurlocks, so continuity was maintained. The Hurlocks sold up soon after.
Peter
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The Mk VI does look very much like a Dax, and considerably different from the CRS which in my opinion is a better looking car:
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w203/londres2012/AC-302-MKIV-CRS.jpg)
(http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_637/car_photo_318598_25.jpg )
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The 'Mark V1' and the 'continuation Heritage' appear to have one common theme ; royalties for Lubinsky's company for use of the AC brand. Had the Kimber project gone forward there would have been a third 'genuine AC' in the shape of the Smart roadster. There lies a similarity with the great Carroll Shelby who takes royalties on 'Shelby continuation ' and production Fords ! Taking the unfortunate stewardship of the brand to one side there is clearly room for a 'genuine continuation aluminum bodied car' as Mr Gray apparently has some of the original factory templates and a long history with AC's so one would presume that he can stick the AC moniker on his cars ( subject of course to paying suitable fees for the brand!). Although I ought to have a jaundiced view following the MAlta Mk V debacle, I also believe that a modern AC should exist and if the Gullwing people are properly funded then the GM LS3 motor is an excellent unit aand combined with the stated specification the car could be successful. Perhaps they should pay less royalties for the badge and put the car out at around £70K.. What is of course of interest to any potential customer is how the new car fairs against the established replicas and by that I mean essentially the Superformance and the Gardner Douglas. The latter has already been using the GM power unit and is more in character with the Mk V1 . From what I understand Lubinsky refused to allow a direct comparison with the 2 key replicas which eventually will happen (provided of course some Mk V1 cars actually arrive in the market place.!) In the meantime we have now sold our remaining Mark V's after having them in stock for over 2 years and we will continue to be active with genuine and replica Cobras and AC's . In my view at around £70K there is a ready market for a car such as one of these as a weekend car.We have a database of people who enquired about the MarkV when we first had it but were never able to offer them a funcitonal car. We are looking into producing our own high quality car in the UK in association with proven specialists. Ironically as the 'UK distributor for AC we still have had no formal word on the Mk V1..
quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Ok...Several points to address here!
Aaron, yes. I take it all back. Well, no actually.[:p] My opinion that 'AC' wouldn`t be able to build another car successfully still stands, BUT I said that before it was clear that the respected German company would be building the MkVI on their proven replica platform.
John Owen was at the ACOC 60th Anniversay meeting with Alan Lubinsky & Jurgen Mohr,although I don`t think they ventured down the hill from the AC Heritage centre where a Mercedes replica & the MkVI were on display) and looked well and at ease, not at all Gollum-like!
Jurgen Mohr was pleasant to chat with, explaining to me many(too many for me to keep track of!)of the improvements and developments made to what was originally the Dax Supertube upon which his respected replica is based. Now making their own uprights & wishbones, using a 'vastly' superior diff, sat nav, traction control, aircon, even the door latches are of their own making; Jurgen Mohr has my respect and I certainly wish him well.
Having seen the MkVI put through it`s paces at Mercedes Benz Brooklands track, it certainly appears to perform well, but you could build 2 very nice Dax` for the same money, or have a Gardner Douglas with the same engine, or a Kirkham and change...[:)]
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Originally posted by Clive Sutton...What is of course of interest to any potential customer is how the new car fairs against the established replicas and by that I mean essentially the Superformance and the Gardner Douglas. The latter has already been using the GM power unit and is more in character with the Mk V1...
And add to that list the Dax, to which the MkVI is most closely comparable in many ways! The Superformance is not exactly established over here, despite their reputation & popularity in the U.S.
One interesting comparison I can make between the MkVI & the Gardner Douglas is how they breathe.
They both use the same LS motor, but Gullwing chose to site the MkVI`s air intake above a panel which would appear to cut off the supply of nice fresh, cool air, whereas GD have chosen to draw air in from the nose:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3742725975_5417ccbe83.jpg) (http://"http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3742725975_5417ccbe83_b.jpg")(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3528/3742727643_10aec50501.jpg) (http://"http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3528/3742727643_10aec50501_b.jpg")
(click pics for larger images)
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by Clive Sutton...What is of course of interest to any potential customer is how the new car fairs against the established replicas and by that I mean essentially the Superformance and the Gardner Douglas. The latter has already been using the GM power unit and is more in character with the Mk V1...
And add to that list the Dax, to which the MkVI is most closely comparable in many ways! The Superformance is not exactly established over here, despite their reputation & popularity in the U.S.
And not forgetting the Hawk built aluminium Kirkham - probably closest to the original of all the current cars and a beautiful car in 289 form.
(http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/289_st/gallery/289st05.jpg )
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford...And not forgetting the Hawk built aluminium Kirkham - probably closest to the original of all the current cars and a beautiful car in 289 form...
Oh I was absolutely NOT forgetting the HawKirk...just comparing apples and apples. I was in that very car on Tuesday(thanks, Trevor!)and it just IS. It looks, feels and smells right in every way.[8D]
I must admit, if I had somewhere between £50-100k to spend on a 'weekend ride', it would be a Hawk/Kirkham FiA, or if it could be done in budget, a 39PH replica, which Hawk already do in their own guise...
Oh dammit, I will do an extra line on this week`s Lottery![:I]
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What I really miss is the discussion, if these cars are the true descendents of the Cobra.
(http://www.shelbyautos.com/Content/page_csx4000_top.jpg)
(http://www.shelbyautos.com/content/page_csx7000_bottom.jpg)
(http://www.shelbyautos.com/Content/page_csx8000_top.jpg)
Michael
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Michael
A Shelby Cobra is a Shelby Cobra I guess - some were built in the 1960s and some were built yesterday. Some of the original cars suffered from - errrm - 'indifferent' build quality as did some of the more recent attempts! But not the bodies supplied by Superformance I hasten to add. (And that Series 1 in the background was not a success, as has been well documented, though it remains the only 'Shelby' that was built from scratch, not based on an existing model.)
In terms of quality with more than a passing resemblence to the original cars, the Kirkham is the best of the descendents. In the theoretical 'blindfold' test, you'd be pushed to tell that Hawkham apart from a '60s original. I had an awful drive to the meeting, struggling along the M25 in a truly horrendous cloudburst, roof up and driving blind for far too long (!!) but the drive home was just the best once I was on the country roads, top down and just cruising happily along, minding my own business. Luvverly! It's also worth pointing out that no two Cobras drive the same anyway, as was discovered by somebody who recently drove fifteen original cars in one day. Variations in tyres, shock absorbers, diff, engine tune, carbs and a host of other details make every car unique.
BUT the Gardner Douglas shown above is an equally interesting variation on the Cobra theme. I don't think of it as Cobra, just a very nice sports car in its own right, the ideal tool for blatting across Europe in a degree of comfort while returning circa 30mpg from its unstressed 6-litre engine. What's not to like? It just echoes the classic coke-bottle shape of the Cobra but has taken its own branch on the tree of Cobra evolution. And for around half the price of a certain 'competitor'!?
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Difference between all these very good expensive replicars (Kirkham – closest to the original, Superformance, Gardner Douglas, Dax, CN – German variation based on Dax Supertube, Hawk, Mohr etc) and the ACs, up to the Mk V, is that the former are replicars, whereas the latter are cars that were engineered and manufactured by a company called AC. Look through the range of cars represented in the ACOC. Up to the Mk V (not yet listed), last and only car beyond the Brooklands Ace, they were produced in a factory run by AC. The Mk V bodywise is an evolution of the 212 S/C. Even the Malta venture however small it was, was a factory owned and run by AC people. Doing engineering, getting successful homologation for market introduction, manufacturing and assembling etc. Even if the few Mk Vs turned out were not totally sorted and work had to be carried out by the distributor before they could be sold.
The Mk VI Gullwing is a completely different story: take an existing good replicar based on the Dax Supertube chassis, which over years has evolved into its latest Mohr variation, the Gullwing venture adding the specific hardtop, make a deal with its producer for rebranding by simply replacing the car’s badges, run an aggressive info campaign by putting the car under the butt of a number of key journalists and make the world believe that this is the new evolutive AC Cobra. Yes it is sold as an AC . People owning the company and the right to the name can do whatever they like.
The market reality will tell whether the car is accepted by customers.
What we at the ACOC have to make our minds up on is whether or not we will accept this car as an AC. I don’t know enough about the club’s bylaws to make a statement on this, but personally I would be disappointed if such rebranded replicar would be regarded an AC as much as the Mk IV & Superblower, Brooklands Ace, Mk IV CRS, 212 S/C, Mk V.
This is an ACOC Forum – and I know it is open to non-ACOC members, so there may be quite different views on this.
Constant/ACOC member since 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Legate
Michael
BUT the Gardner Douglas shown above is an equally interesting variation on the Cobra theme. I don't think of it as Cobra, just a very nice sports car in its own right, the ideal tool for blatting across Europe in a degree of comfort while returning circa 30mpg from its unstressed 6-litre engine. What's not to like? It just echoes the classic coke-bottle shape of the Cobra but has taken its own branch on the tree of Cobra evolution. And for around half the price of a certain 'competitor'!?
And they even do a version based on the MkIV shape - taken from a real MkIV I believe!
My only gripe with the MKVI is that for £93,500 you would expect the shape to be spot-on - the DAX based shape has lost the original curves.
As to whether the MkVI should be accepted as an AC, if Mr Mohr is an AC enthusiast and his car is built to high standards then I can't see any reason for excluding it. The 'Octane' article suggests the car is built with real care and to a high standard.
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That`s Exactly how I see it, too...
It`s very hard to see how AC Cars can make this statement (http://"http://www.accars.de/") in their official press release: "The AC MkVI, a faithful recreation of the ultimate sports car icon - the AC Cobra, is now being produced in Germany for worldwide sales...says Alan Lubinsky. “Why would anyone buy a replica when they can own an authentic AC roadster that is lighter and better and has been engineered and built to such demanding standards?” "
Ironically, even the press release for the MkVI is a replica, with only minor tweaks (such as substituting the name of Doug Hasty with Jurgen Mohr and the model change from 'V' to 'VI') to tell it apart from the press release for the MkV in April 2006 (http://"http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/01/ac-cars-signs-deal-for-u-s-distribution-of-real-cobras/print/")(April the first?![:o)]).
Constant, I appreciate that you had your Mohr Cobra several years ago, but how does it differ from the MkVI, for example, is the interior very different?
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Everybody will have his or her own take on the situation and the only thing we can agree on is that everyone will probably disagree. For me, if it looks like a Dax, smells like a Dax and quacks like a Dax...it's probably not an AC!
And in all seriousness, the fact that the title on the cover of the current issue of Autocar states "New AC Cobra" would have me diving for cover in case that ever lands on a lawyers desk in Dearborn. The Cobra name was not removed from AC's ownership before the 25-year agreement had expired for nothing - the legal eagles obviously read the terms under which AC was purchased from Price Waterhouse in 1996 (and that's another issue...) Even the use of the word 'Cobra' on the current website treads a fine line (association by implication?) Whaddever, not my problem.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
That`s Exactly how I see it, too...
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Constant, I appreciate that you had your Mohr Cobra several years ago, but how does it differ from the MkVI, for example, is the interior very different?
Nick, I assume you refer in your first sentence to my statement, not to Chafford's?
My Mohr Cobra was a car from the 90'ies. Already at the time they were Dax based. Good solid car but nothing in comparison to the Mk IV.
Body and cockpit wise these cars have not changed much. Just look at replica sites and compare Dax, Mohr, Mk VI Gullwing. They have since certainly evolved in matters of chassis and suspension. From my experience of driving other replicas in 2001, some had superior handling, I would even pretend superior to the Mk IV's. And since 2001 another 8 years have passed, so other upgrades may have been included. Look at the Dax site. They have some interesting suspension features. One of the better handling cars in the 90ies was the Contemporary, using E-Type front and rear suspension elements. They had very limited appearance though in Europe.
The Mk IV is essentially a 1982 car with basic chassis design from the 60ies. And that's part of its attraction, for me.
However good a Dax, Mohr, CN, Superformance... you name them may be today, for me putting an AC badge on them does not make them an AC.
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quote:
Originally posted by MkIV Lux...Nick, I assume you refer in your first sentence to my statement...Just look at replica sites and compare Dax, Mohr, Mk VI Gullwing...However good a Dax, Mohr, CN, Superformance... you name them may be today, for me putting an AC badge on them does not make them an AC.
Yes, Constant, I was agreeing with you, Mr.Chafford posted whilst I was writing! (I type very slowly!) [;)]
It is not easy finding information on the Mohr replicas, but I admit my research has been less than exhaustive.
As Trevor says, it is a debate that will rumble on for a long time to come, but I trust none of us will fall out over our differences!!![:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Legate
Even the use of the word 'Cobra' on the current website treads a fine line (association by implication?)
But presumably OK to describe ACs originally sold as 'Cobras' as such - i.e. the original 60s cars and (some)MkIVs.
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AC may be able to describe themselves as manufacturers of the original Cobra, but not being licensed to use the name now, could be open to litigation for describing the MkVI here (http://"http://www.accars.de/") as: "...an open-top sports car based on the design of the Le Mans winning AC Cobra with many of the original car's characteristics while incorporating modern technology. The cars are not imitations - they are new generation of AC Cobra incorporating relevant advanced technology." [B)]
And which AC Cobra upon which this (and the MkV before it) is based, won Le Mans??? [B)][V]
Shelby took Factory Five to court, because the metatags in their website(which are not visible on the page,)would direct someone 'googling' "Shelby", "Cobra", "427" or "S/C" to their website, I don`t recall the result. Maybe there isn`t one yet.
Also, many replica manufacturers can`t refer to "AC" or "Cobra" cars in any context, even historic... simply refering to 'the original cars fom the sixties' or similar.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
...... The cars are not imitations - they are new generation of AC Cobra incorporating relevant advanced technology.[/i]" [B)]
...
Interestingly this ad makes no direct association between the name "Cobra" and the "AC Mk VI". The above statement may well be read as "new generation of (the former) AC Cobra".
Mr Lubinsky is certainly smart enough to leave this association to the journalists. And they of course have done it.
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The factory five suit was settled. Factory five was allowed to use the cobra "dress" IE the body shape, but not the name. Hence came a big sigh in the world of replica/kit manufacturers, because if Shelby could still claim ownership of the trade dress, he would have gone after everybody else. The Superformance "continuation" shelby was born out of this. Superformance settled with Shelby by agreeing to pay royalties to Shelby. I believe Trevor details this in his book.
Anyway, I hear the Kirkham name far too few in this blog. Let's face it, there is NOOO comparison between any of the other manufacturers and Kirkham, and most aluminum Shelby continuation cars are re-badged Kirkhams. Without AC producing any cars at this time, I guess that makes Kirkham the next AC. Same principle: Some one supplies the chassis and body, Shelby shoehorns in a drive train and puts his name on it.
for the sake of the brand, would hope the German affair is successful, but from the outside looking in it smells way too much like history repeating itself and another lawsuit in the making....Although I must say, how "AC" is a German built car and how "cobra" is a GM powertrain?
Hmmm, maybe I should throw in a couple of inflammatory comments to assure this blog keeps going for another few pages!!!
Gus
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Feel free Gus!!!!! We can take it! He said, with tongue firmly in cheek......and I do agree re Kirkham for what it's worth. If you need a 'Cobra' in your life, who you gonna call...?
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Following close on the heals of Aston Martin and its commercial tie up with Toyota to make the £20K Aston derived from the Aygo, a great follow on for the deutcher lubinsky consortium could the 'Mk V1 GWIZ. A modern day city electric variant complete with external loundsprechers blasting sampled sounds of the 427 exhaust tone. Only one problem, they might get sued by Brabus who got there first with the Brabus tuned Electric Smart.. Then to quote the classic line from the film 'Life of Alan (whoops I meant Brian!) ' What have AC ever done for us ?
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That oughtta get 'em going again!!
Gus
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Autocar have just tested the MkVI...And they like it. A LOT.
(Click pics for video reports.)
(http://www.autocar.co.uk/contentImages//Car/AC/MkVI/217994504370234x155.jpg) (http://"http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=242755&CT=V&FLT=34|")
They Decided to Drag race the MkVI vs a Corvette ZR1... which will win? `Vette`s 640BHP vs The MkVI`s 430BHP...
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/MkVIvsZR1.jpg) (http://"http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=242107&Page=2&CT=V")
And for those of you who think the MkVI looks like Tim... think again!(Clcik pic)
(http://images.autocar.co.uk//Car/AC/MkVI/AC-MkVI-2179945643102620x411.jpg) (http://"http://www.autocar.co.uk/ac/mkvi")
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Sorry, but in the video the car looks like a kit-car to me. A nice kit-car but a kit-car.
I just sold my first cobra kit-car and was hoping to leave that community. Now it comes back to me [xx(]