AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: runt on June 17, 2007, 21:17:23
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Hi all, I remember buying the Autocar in '68 (at age thirteen..!)
Still have the mag featuring UPG428F on road test, re-reading it now I wonder whether that car survives, it along with the Cobra was instumental in firing my fascination with AC cars which has never waned.I would love to hear any recent info re this car, thanks in advance,
Paul/runt.[:)]
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Hello Runt
If the car you remember was blue, it was CF 8 which I attempted to buy in London from an advertising executive in 1976. The car was featured in a number of Brit car mag road tests in 1968. It was snatched out from under me by an eclectic American investor from a Chicago suburb called St. Charles, Illinois. I regret that I do not have his name at hand, but I managed to visit him some years later (late '80's, I think) when I was in his area. He was a contractor who built golf courses. One of his other cars was an original F-code '57 T-Bird which I examined in close detail. CF 8 was alive and well at that time.
Best Regards,
Mike Reed/Rheinubung
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Dug out a few b/w period Road Test pics of UPG 428F which I think was the only 428 with such a great UK registration number to begin with ? [:)]
From Autosport. John Bolster Road Test October 4 1968. Not sure why the top lines of text are a bit squashed ! [:I]
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280006-UPG428FJohnBolsterfrontpa.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280001-1.jpg)
From Autocar. 4 July 1968
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280003-UPG428F.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC4280004-UPG428Frearview.jpg)
From Motor. Road Test 28 September 1968.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-UPG428F-BolsterTest.jpg)
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Mike, that is amazing, so pleased to know that the car has survived,its the same with the John Woolfe 427 Cobs, when your'e in your formative years these influences steer you down a certain road and I'm as obsessed as ever all these years later!The 428 sounded to me at the time like the best driving automatic on the market, and though I know the FE is a heavy engine, the Autocar shot of the AC428 cornering looks pretty impressive.
The factory press AC289, KPD150C, was another of my 'sixties icons', I think Trevor Legate mentioned it having been converted to 427 spec at some stage, does this car survive I wonder?
Regards, Paul.
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Classicus, thank you also for posting these, I have never seen Bolster's test before, fabulous stuff!
The 'Motor' test of Sept. '68 I have been after for ages, scouring Evilbay to no avail, if anyone on here has one and wishes to sell, I'll pay well!
Thanks again,
Paul.[:)]
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Hi Paul,
Would some fairly reasonable photocopies do instead of the full Motor article ? It'll take a day or two and the resolution will be about the same as the John Bolster images, but you can easily copy/ paste over to Word and enlarge it up to about 150% plus so it's readable.
Don't know if you're interested but there's also a few other period bits and pieces I've collected over the years as well ? Some I think on the long thread forum "How many Frua left ?", starting 7/3/07, a third of the way down page 2 and my first post. The rest on page 2 of the forum itself - "Some 428 History"....[:)]
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Hi Classicus, that's very kind,yes anything is much appreciated, a copy of the test 'Two seater tearaway' would be brilliant,and any other stuff, at your convenience of course,in many ways I prefer the prose used in these old tests to today's writers..or am I getting old(YES..!)Still amazed that these big FE motors seem to need so much more assistance to keep cool than the small block motors, I have a 396 Windsor in a 'fake snake'(runs for cover), can't believe how cool it runs but of course there is plenty of room round it.
Thanks once again,
Paul.[:)]
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Pleasure, will scan the 6 Motor copies in a day or so [:)]
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Hi Paul
Had a bit of time this morning to scan them, hope the really small print comes out ! [:)]
In Page order 1 - 6....
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage1-1.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage2.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage3.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage4.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage5.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage6.jpg)
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Classicus, that is so very kind of you,a fascinating read for me, starting right from the title 'Two Seater Tearaway'; these were always amusing at the that time, the AC 289 test headed 'The Power Game'; the Aston DB6, 'A Very Grand Tourer'..!
As you have gathered, I have only just discovered these forums, very inspiring to find that many 428 Frua are being maintained in good health, the chassis restoration pics from Emmanueld showing that these cars are basically tough, not having seen one 'in the flesh' for years I had no idea whether many had survived.
Thanks again for doing that,
Paul.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rheinubung
Hello Runt
If the car you remember was blue, it was CF 8 which I attempted to buy in London from an advertising executive in 1976. The car was featured in a number of Brit car mag road tests in 1968. It was snatched out from under me by an eclectic American investor from a Chicago suburb called St. Charles, Illinois. I regret that I do not have his name at hand, but I managed to visit him some years later (late '80's, I think) when I was in his area. He was a contractor who built golf courses. One of his other cars was an original F-code '57 T-Bird which I examined in close detail. CF 8 was alive and well at that time.
Best Regards,
Mike Reed/Rheinubung
Hello Mike,
I'm not sure if you'll remember me, but I'm Chuck "Number 3" the son of the fellow [Chuck Jr.] who bought the AC coupe in question... Your memory is pretty good, but you are a bit off on some of the fine details.
If I remember correctly... The fellow in London who was selling the car was named Whitlam who lived on Baker Street London (with a number very close to Sherlock Holmes's flat... 121 or 122 Baker if I remember right). For some reason I thought he was a doctor, but maybe it was Mr. Whitlam who had bought it from a doctor. It's been over 30 years and I was like 14 at the time.
Anyway, The car, CF7 by the way:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/dataplate_799.jpg)
, was listed in a US auto magazine's want ad's in late 1975 or early 1976. I saw the ad and showed it to my father who pursued it's purchase/importation.
As I remember, Mr. Whitlam had interest not only for my father but a fellow from Seattle Washington (You, I presume, Mike) and he decided that whomever got him a down-payment first would get the car. Remember that this was a time before FedEx, email and the internet, so buying a car from overseas makes today's eBay look like Tiffany's. The fellow from Seattle mailed a cashiers cheque via 1st Class Airmail, my father Wired $1,000 down-payment via Western Union and my father's payment beat the fellow from Seattle by a day, maybe two at most. So we won the right to buy the car.
So it wasn't so much that my father "snatched" the car out from under the other fellow, but rather he sent money via a quicker method. It could have easily worked out the other way.
Incidentally, the fellow from Seattle later flew over to England and enlisted the assistance of Mr. Whitlam to find him an AC coupe to import. The car the fellow from Seattle bought was Silver if I remember correctly as we had contact with him later in the 1970's... It turned out that he had grown up, and his parents still lived, in a town a dozen or so miles north of us. Later on, in the late 1970's or early 1980's we had the pleasure of a visit from the fellow from Seattle who wanted to "see the one which got away". If I remember correctly he arrived on a black Kawasaki KZ 1000 (or similar) with some very nifty black chrome on it which we hadn't seen the likes of before. Perhaps you'll confirm or correct my memory. ;-)
Anyway, we had Mr. Whitlam take the car to the AC Factory and prepare it for life in America, and he sent it off and we sent off funds for the car (and halfsies on the AC servicing) and because both parties were scrupulously honest, the deal went through without a hitch.
The car was originally a very pale-green metalic color as painted by the factory. Not even British Racing Green, but rather the sort of pale green metallic color you might imagine on a faded AMC Hornet. Not very attractive at all. Either the first owner of the AC [besides the factory] or Mr. Whitlam, choose to paint the car a beautiful medium Blue color from an Aston Martin paint chip set.
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/front_765.jpg)
There are some areas on the tubing around the inside of the bottom of the hood where one can still see the original color. But the car remains the same AM blue color with black leather interior currently as shown.
So the car originally was pale green [metallic], not blue. I wouldn't call my father an investor but really more of a collector... He was a "cut me and I bleed Dearborn Blue" Ford guy who really wanted an Cobra 427 but started looking about 1 year too late as the values jumped from about $8k through $16k to about $33k in the space of a year. The values of the 427's always seemed to jump ahead of his ability to land one.
The T-Bird you remember was not an F-Code T-Bird, but you could be forgiven for thinking/remembering so... It actually is the earlier D-Code Twin-Belt Supercharged 1957 T-Bird, built in January 1957 [instead of the later F-Bird's which were built in May] which he had to race it on the beach at Daytona to get it.
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/twinbelt.jpg)
Anyway, my father passed away a number of years ago and when he died he had about 12-13 cars squirreled away at various places. His first love was the early V-8 Fords, in particular the '32's and he had a small business he ran on the side [of Golf Course building] making, straightening and customizing 1930's era Ford frames ranging from simple setup to complete boxing and adaption of Jaguar or Corvette suspensions... Of the cars my father had, I managed to convince her to keep four of them [and believe me, I had to lobby long and hard for those four] and among the ones we kept are the D-Supercharged Bird and the AC. So as I say, he was more of a collector than a "buy this because it'll be a good investment" sort of guy.
They are kept in a secured, heated garage and are in pretty good shape, but they haven't run in a number of years as my sister and I have been sending the funds necessary to get them back to driving trim to the U.S. Government in order to settle the Estate taxes from our parents. As a result we have had to take the restorations much slower than we would like.
The D-Bird and the AC are among the more problematic to restore because each one is so bloody rare. The AC production figures I could quote but they are probably well known here, the D-Bird... They only made either 12 or 14 of the D-Code Supercharged T-Birds, one of which is in the Museum in Dearborn, the other was sold in Georgia in the early 1980's and no one knows if any others survive. I am very good friends [as my father was too] with the editor of the Chicagoland T-Bird Club newsletter and he knows of no other D-Code Supercharged Birds which survive to this day. So we want to take any efforts to get these fellows streetable very cautiously.
Anyway, On a lark this morning I did a search on AC 428 and happened across this forum and later this query and I thought I'd post a "shout-out" for you all.
Incidentally, one of the ways we know the car we have was the car used for testing [aside from the folks at AC telling us so] was the wrinkles in the leather driver's seat on page 3 top of the Motor Test 30/68 article:
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428MotorRoadTestPage3.jpg)
[Yeah, that one!]
... is exact as the wrinkles on the drivers seat in CF7. The factory told us that this was the factory loaner/test car for several years until one of the folks on the waiting list got antsy and was offered CF7, which he took them up on. While it was owned by AC it was frequently used for testing variations in the interior and other items. One thing you'll note that currently CF7 is sans the AC nose badge. This is the way we received it, and later examples had a small vent located within this badge. CF7 also is sans the small "Logo vents" behind the fuel filler and sans the Frua badge behind the side panel vents behind the front wheel. All of the vintage articles show the same configuration (save for the first picture on the Motor Road Test article for some reason...).
I'll note that a number of years ago, Brookland books had a compilation of articles on the AC 428 (as well as some AC 289 and AC 427 filler articles) offered for sale in book form. I'm not sure where my copy is, but if I should run across it, I'll scan them and make them available for the peanut gallery.
In the meantime, I do have a [rather HUGE] PDF article I can share on my webspace:
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_Article_AQ_v29-n4.pdf
Which is a 6 megabyte PDF document of a very nice writeup on the AC 428 by Automobile Quarterly. It'll take some time to download even with high-0speed internet, save it and open it with a PDF reader. [at least that's my adice]
Mike, I would love to get back in contact with you if for no other reason to catch up with you (irregardless of if your the fellow from Seattle or not] and perhaps to swap some old stories... Please email me! We'll talk!
Whew, this turned out to be a long post too!
I'll sum up. We were told by the factory that UPF 428F was CF 7. CF 7 is resting currently secure and awaiting the funds that will allow it's reawakening.
Hope this is greeted as good news.
Cheers and I look forward to learning more from you all in the future!
Chuck [Number 3]...
P.S. Pre-emptive thought/statement, not for sale. Don't bother asking...
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Here is a screen snap thumbnail [10% of it's actual size] of that 6meg PDF I linked to previously...
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AQ_Article_snap.jpg)
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_Article_AQ_v29-n4.pdf
I also ran across these scans which may be interesting to you all...
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_poster/ac1.jpg)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_poster/ac2.jpg)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_poster/ac3.jpg)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/AC_poster/ac4.jpg)
Interestingly tnought this timeline mistakenly has the AC version of the "Cobra Coupe" pictured whith the description of the Shelby/Peter Brock built example on the third page under "Racers 1964"... The "Brows" over the wheel wells are the biggest givaway on that. I'd love to know what happened to that one! I'd expect there would be other errors to be found as well.
Cheers!
Chuck
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Lots of errors - like claiming that 39PH is a '427' (good grief!!) and the car on the first page, AOR692A, did not start life as a Cobra (unless I'm much mistaken). As for calling the AC Ace 'feeble', I would suggest that the so-called author stays well away from Thames Ditton!
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Hi Chuck, this is very good news,as CF 7 is certainly a piece of history, being color blind I never could figure out what shade her paint was from the very dark cover pic on Autocar of 4 July '68!
I see that 'Motor' mention a later model featuring the inverted 'u'shape transmission shifter, the last 428 I saw on the road years ago had that, I wonder how many had one like CF 7.
Thanks for sharing this with us, very happy to know CF 7 is in the hands of a caring keeper.
Paul/runt.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
Hi Chuck, this is very good news,as CF 7 is certainly a piece of history, being color blind I never could figure out what shade her paint was from the very dark cover pic on Autocar of 4 July '68!
Hiya Paul,
Pleased to make your acquaintance...
As I said, the parts of the hood frame that weren't covered or oversprayed still show the original color. It's the sort of bland plain color that one might expect to see on a low-ball U.S. Governement "lowest" bidder car. Our reaction to it was "Bleech", If I hadn't seen the color, I'd be in the camp that save for Pig-snout Pink there isn't a color that an AC 428 wouldn't look good in. But I think it'd be hard for even a AC 428 to overcome that shade of green. We were glad it was painted a far better color.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
I see that 'Motor' mention a later model featuring the inverted 'u'shape transmission shifter, the last 428 I saw on the road years ago had that, I wonder how many had one like CF 7.
I don't know but I suspect... Since CF 7 was a fairly early production example, I'd dare say that this was the pattern at least up through CF 7 on the Automatic equipped cars. Interestingly enough, the "T" shaped Automatic gear selection shifter is nigh identical with mid-to-late 1960's Ford US production shifters of the Mustang/Cougar/Torino/Cyclone mold. In fact the "safety lock out" remains on the :"left wing" of the "T" just as it was on US LHD models, to activate it, one has to use their left "pinky" finger or press in with their left palm on the left side of the "T" instead of using their right thumb as it was originally designed for. Another charming "quirk" of the cross-bred nature of the beast. I would imagine that the adoption of the "Inverted U" shaped shifter was meant to address this quirk for what was a hand-built luxury vehicle.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Thanks for sharing this with us, very happy to know CF 7 is in the hands of a caring keeper.
Paul/runt.[:)]
When I was a kid growing up, my favorite Hot Wheel was a Brown Maserati Minstral. Sort of like this one (but more of a metallic Brown:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/hot_wheels/MM/brown/20070617-Maserati-1.jpg)
Of course the AC is better!
=)
Cheers!
-- Chuck
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Chuck,I remember that 'T' shifter on a '70 Muzzie I owned in '79;and can imagine how awkward it might be on a rhd,though of course parking is the only time you'd touch it,I assume with 480 ft/lbs you leave it in 'D' all day long?
I've noticed through the years that the motor was rated at '345 bhp gross',this seems a bit low bearing in mind the 10.5 :1 c/r..?
Were the iron heads of much smaller porting than today's alluminum items? As Emmanuel's car shows, this engine has masses of potential,I just would have guessed nearer 400 horse as installed in the AC 428.
As a VERY enhusiastic non-owner, a big thank you from me to everyone on these forums, a fount of knowledge and great to know that many others love these cars!
Paul/runt.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
Chuck,I remember that 'T' shifter on a '70 Muzzie I owned in '79;and can imagine how awkward it might be on a rhd,though of course parking is the only time you'd touch it,I assume with 480 ft/lbs you leave it in 'D' all day long?
Well... I would imagine that it would be pretty awkward if the shifter and spring were new and stiff. Fortunately, the one on CF 7 is pretty well worked in and it possible that someone at some time took it apart because it doesn't take a great deal of effort to push it in with one's pinky.
As for times when one would use it... In my experience about the only times one would want to use it would be if:
a] one wanted to control shifting points from start,
b] one wanted to force an immediate gear kick-down for acceleration whilst underway.
c] one wanted to use the engine for "Compression braking".
There would probably be a bit of an advantage of taking matters in to one's own hand on those.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
I've noticed through the years that the motor was rated at '345 bhp gross',this seems a bit low bearing in mind the 10.5 :1 c/r..?
Hmmm... with the 428 torque is really this plant's strong suit, not brute horsepower. If I remember correctly, the 428 has a longer stroke/smaller bore than the 427 so it's not as "free-revvin'" of an engine, which probably also explains the AC 428's comparatively modest top end: lower Redline and only three gears. Considering how much more slippery and "swoopy" the Frua (especially the coupe) compared to a Cobra 427 one would think that a Frua Coupe would have it all over the "MGB on Steroids" shape of the Cobras. But the 428/C6 combo doesn't have the long legs to go along with the slippery shape.
But we'll always have better fuel economy!
Among other things the real "trick" part of the 427, at least in my opinion, are the cross-bolted mains. They really add to the sturdiness of the bottom end of the 427's block. A far superior arrangement to "traditional" 4-bolt mains.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Were the iron heads of much smaller porting than today's alluminum items? As Emmanuel's car shows, this engine has masses of potential,I just would have guessed nearer 400 horse as installed in the AC 428.
Well, truth be told, since we've had the car about the only thing we've done to it was to change the main bearing's and put in a radio. So I really wouldn't know first hand how the heads/headers would compare with modern parts. However, at one time my Dad had a 427 Tunnel Port engine and the difference between it's ports [both intake and exhaust] was simply mind-blowing.
To explain the difference [as best as I can remember 20 years later] one could take an Eisenhower Silver Dollar [about the same size as the older pattern 10p or 50p coin] and bridge over the ports on a standard medium-riser/side oiler 427. With the Tunnel-port there was a solid 5-10mm all around the edge of the coin... [again that's as best as I can remember]
quote:
Originally posted by runt
As a VERY enhusiastic non-owner, a big thank you from me to everyone on these forums, a fount of knowledge and great to know that many others love these cars!
Well, I was pretty enthusiastic about the AC since I found out about it, still am! My father though was the real gearhead in the family and he knew a lot more about the nuts and bolts of the why's and wherefores on the mechanics. He was an old school hot-rodder.
As I mentioned previously, my collecting focus is on chronographs.
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/cm3articles.html
When that is the topic, I get to be a little more useful as a resource personally.
For example... Speaking of 1967's... Here are a couple of other 1967's...
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/competitors/autavia_v_speedmaster/DSCN1714_640w.jpg)
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/competitors/autavia_v_speedmaster/autavia_v72_v_speedy_c321.html
But I'll try to share when and where I can around here. I too am exceedingly happy to have fount a place to talk and learn more about the AC Frua's... Back in the 1970's we had thought that [at that time] there may have been as few as 6 or so AC 428's in the Weastern hemisphere. It nice to know a few others have made it over here. It'd be great to have a reunion some day.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Paul/runt.[:)]
It has been a pleasure conversing Paul...
-- Chuck
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UPG 428 F. Autocar Road Test 4th July 1968
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Autocarroadtest0001.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Autocarroadtest0002.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Autocarroadtest0003.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Autocarroadtest0004.jpg)
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Autocarroadtest0005.jpg)
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Stunning, Chuck that Omega is perfection.
I have read a couple of tests on Cobra 427 with Holman & Moody tunnel port heads, output from those engines must have been in the region of 500 horse, didn't realise porting was THAT big!
Classicus, that Autocar test is another gem, CF 7 was quite a busy car at that time!"Under way the AC 428 responds to the throttle like no other car we know"..!Great stuff!
Paul.[:)]
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Hello Chuck:
It was an amazing deja vu experience to read your detailed report of your history with CF 7; thank you very much.
Yes I am the very same guy from Seattle who visited your home in St. Charles... the very same guy trying to buy CF 7 from Mr. Whitlam in London. In fact, when I flew over there, he was kind enough to meet me, drive me out to AC in Thames Ditton, then buy me an excellent tandoori chicken.
I am listed in the phone book for Bothell, WA (suburb of Seattle) as Michael S. Reed on 53rd Ave. S.E. My e-mail is Rheinubung@msn.com. I hope you'll contact me and we can have an interesting conversation.
Best Regards,
Mike
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
Stunning, Chuck that Omega is perfection.
Hiya again Paul,
Actually my 1967 "Pre-Moon" Speedy is a bit on the rough side compared with my others, even my older ones...
My c.1959 CK2915-3:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/watches/speedmaster/CK2915/ck2915-3_1_800.jpg)
And my 105.003-65 are in better shape:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/105.003-65.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by runt
I have read a couple of tests on Cobra 427 with Holman & Moody tunnel port heads, output from those engines must have been in the region of 500 horse, didn't realise porting was THAT big!
Well, I can't remember if the claimed figure was 515 or 575 Horses to be honest, and that may have been gross not net. But I doubt many many had Power Steering or Air Conditioning installed!
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Classicus, that Autocar test is another gem, CF 7 was quite a busy car at that time!"Under way the AC 428 responds to the throttle like no other car we know"..!Great stuff!
Paul.[:)]
They sure know/knew how to smith words!
-- Chuck
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Chuck,these are restored by yourself, or in original condition? Whatever,they are remarkable, if you'll pardon my lowering the tone of the conversation, what kind of value could these command now?
Back to CF 7,this has been inspiring, told my wife:"I'm speaking to the owner of a car I've loved since I was thirteen, in 1968!" Also, great that Mike and yourself are in contact, power to the internet!
The evolution of the Ford 'Total Performance' lineage though the 1960's V-8s has always inspired me, like most enthusiasts I admire all kinds of Yankee V-8s but the Ford small block for example sounds SO different to a Chev; what with the firing order etc., if we listen to the chase in 'Bullitt', McQueen's 390GT Muzzie sounds nothing like the Charger R/T noise,apparently the soundtrack we hear there is NOT the 390 FE, but a GT40 soundtrack overlaid..! (Small or Big Block, I know not.)
The Supercharged 312 in your father's T-Bird is clearly the start of the Y Block performance options, an inspired period for Ford!
I'm wondering if anyone on here has one of these rumoured early Fruas with a 427 fitted from new..?
Paul.[:)]
Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
Chuck,these are restored by yourself, or in original condition?
As far as I've been able to tell both examples are in original condition as shipped from the factory in Bienne Switzerland back in the day. I'm sure both watches have been serviced through the years and may well have certain "wear" parts replaced much as any of us would replace a brake pad, wiper blades or tires.
I have had the 105.003 overhauled by a trusted watchmaker as it had "Chrono Hour Creep" where the Chronograph Hour hand will creep forward even when the chronograph is stopped. One can actually see in the picture I had included in my previous post that the hour register isn't zeroed. That's CHC... It's been fixed since I took that snap.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Whatever,they are remarkable,
Thank you. I feel the same way about them. The 105.003 [the second one] in particular is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the "Speedmaster experience". This is the same model that Ed White wore when he did his Space walk on Gemini 4 and later survived the Apollo 1 fire.
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/1stspacewatch.jpg)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/white_letter.jpg)
The reason I prefer the 105.003 is that it's very plain compared with the models before and after it. It's the cleanest and plainest Speedmaster ever made and it has a quiet elegance about it. Like a Movado Museum watch, it's just plainly elegant. It doesn't need to shout about what it is.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
if you'll pardon my lowering the tone of the conversation, what kind of value could these command now?
Well, It's really hard to say with the CK2915-3 [the one with the silver colored main hands] as they are pretty uncommon and don't show up on eBay especially often. The "Dash-1" and "Dash-2"'s are the real pricey one's which have "Broad Arrow" hands.
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/watches/speedmaster/CK2915/Gernot/20041208_ck2915-1lg_600w.jpg)
Now that watch [which is a CK2915-1 or what many of us collector's will call a "Dash One" is probably worth anywhere from, Hmmm... I'd say about $12,000 up to about.... [fumbling for the auction final results...] Well, they had two Dash-Two's sell at the big Omegamania Auction back in April: 106,200 Swiss Francs and 94,400 Swiss Francs respectively... That's 64,231.28 Euro and 57,094.47 Euro respectively.
However the highest price I've seen for a Dash One or Dash Two on eBay was $26,000 or so... I archived the auction for future reference:
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/26100_CK2915_ebay.pdf
But that was several years ago.
My Dash Three example, I paid $3,300 for it back in the spring of 2003 and it's probably worth something closer to what the CK2998's went for at Omega mania which was... 30,680 Swiss Francs and 21,240 Swiss Francs or 18,555.70 Euro and 12,846.26 Euro respectively. The highest price I've seen on eBay for a CK2998 was about $14,000 fairly recently:
http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/auctions/14100USD_CK2998_230024151138/eBay_CK2998_1959_OMEGA_SPEEDMASTER_230024151138.pdf
But that one had EVERY SPECK of original boxes and papers that a collector could ever dream of. I only have the watch, so mine wouldn't be worth quite that much, even though my dial is in better "non-turned" condition. "Turned means the dial has changed from it's original black to a Chocolate Brown...
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/omega/archives/auctions/14100USD_CK2998_230024151138/f8_3.JPG.jpg)
But it has an original bracelet. Mine is in much better shape though... So maybe it wouldn't be too far behind.
As for the 105.003's. They are quite a bit more common... They can probably still be had in the $3,500 to $6,000 range without too much scrounging. But the Omegamania auction was like Tsunami in the watch collecting world and we're still trying to make sense of where values will settle out to be in the future.
I guess this goes to show that there certainly is a lot to the Speedmaster topic.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Back to CF 7,this has been inspiring, told my wife:"I'm speaking to the owner of a car I've loved since I was thirteen, in 1968!" Also, great that Mike and yourself are in contact, power to the internet!
The internet is an amazing thing. I have people I consider friends in about 20-25 countries and every week I get unsolicited emails from at least a dozen countries seeking my assistance or advice on chronograph topics. It amazes me that a Department of Defense program meant to ensure communications after a nuclear war has probably done more to bring the world closer together than all of the Peace marches combined!
quote:
Originally posted by runt
The evolution of the Ford 'Total Performance' lineage though the 1960's V-8s has always inspired me, like most enthusiasts I admire all kinds of Yankee V-8s but the Ford small block for example sounds SO different to a Chev; what with the firing order etc., if we listen to the chase in 'Bullitt', McQueen's 390GT Muzzie sounds nothing like the Charger R/T noise,apparently the soundtrack we hear there is NOT the 390 FE, but a GT40 soundtrack overlaid..! (Small or Big Block, I know not.)
Well of course, the 390 isn't a small block Ford. It's a FE just like the 406, 427 and 428... The 428 is really just a bored and stroked 390 for the most part.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
The Supercharged 312 in your father's T-Bird is clearly the start of the Y Block performance options, an inspired period for Ford!
Actually, it probably was the pinacle of the Y-Block development. I don't believe that Ford ever shipped a more powerful version of the Y-Block. The Dual-Quad E-Bird's developed 275 and 285 HP [Manual/Auto] and the Supercharged version was rated at 300hp. But I personally believe that to be conservative. My dad certainly walked away from me in my 1969 Torino GT Convertable [390] during a driving Thunderstorm (him on Bias ply Wide-Whitewalls, me on brand new BF Goodrich T/A Radials.]...
quote:
Originally posted by runt
I'm wondering if anyone on here has one of these rumoured early Fruas with a 427 fitted from new..?
It's possible I suppose. I suspect that CF1 was a 427 as the really early articles I've seen call the car the AC 427. But I don't really know.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Paul.[:)]
Paul.
Again, it's been a pleasure chatting P!
-- Chuck
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Chuck, I can see the 'understated'feel of the 105.003 appearance you're stressing, truly classic, and what an amazing story re Edward White's Speedmaster.
For the T - Bird to outdrag a Torino 390 GT certainly is a powerful indication of Ford underrating the output of some of the performance engines, someone on the 'CobraClub' forum advised me that the 428 'Police Interceptor'rated at 345 horse,was reckoned at the time to produce a genuine unstressed 360 -370 which sounds more like it, but of course as you mentioned, TORQUE is the attraction with all these leviathans, my 396 Windsor made 460 ft/lbs on the dyno, goodness knows what kind of reading that tunnel port 427 gave..!
Paul.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by runt
Chuck, I can see the 'understated'feel of the 105.003 appearance you're stressing, truly classic, and what an amazing story re Edward White's Speedmaster.
Hi Paul,
In my opinion, if one can only have one, that's the model to have. Often we in the chronograph collecting community compare various brands and models to cars. Most often, the Speedmaster is compared to the Porsche 911. Mainly because the Speedmaster is celebrating it's 50th year of continous production this year and for the most part the main model which has become known as "the moonwatch" hasn't changed to a great extent in those fifty years. The 911 has been in production for over 40 years and if one were to drive a 1964 or 1965 model and see a brand new 911 going the other way, they'd recognize one another. Both designs have stood the test of time.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
For the T - Bird to outdrag a Torino 390 GT certainly is a powerful indication of Ford underrating the output of some of the performance engines,
Well, in my defense, I was only 16 years old at the time, and I hadn't had a lot of experience on the road (even thought I had been running construction equipment since I was 10). My Dad had been driving decades and probably had 60,000 miles behind the wheel of that car (I probably had a couple thousand behind the Torino's wheel). The tires on my Torino were probably half again as wide as the Wide Whites on the Brown Bird, so the Bird wouldn't have had as much slicing through the puddles while my clod-hoppers would skip over the top like a rock on a pond. Now if we were on some corners, maybe I would have been able to catch up some. Still, the only other times I had someone walk away from me in that Torino were a pair of 455's... A Olds Toronado on a sloppy road, and one of my lifelong friend's 1971 GTO Judge 455 with Ram Air IV heads. I know I got beat other times too, on a straight track but not so handily. I couldn't keep up with a Sunbeam Tiger on a curvey patch of road either, but I suppose that's not a big surprise either!
quote:
Originally posted by runt
someone on the 'CobraClub' forum advised me that the 428 'Police Interceptor'rated at 345 horse,was reckoned at the time to produce a genuine unstressed 360 -370 which sounds more like it, but of course as you mentioned, TORQUE is the attraction with all these leviathans, my 396 Windsor made 460 ft/lbs on the dyno, goodness knows what kind of reading that tunnel port 427 gave..!
Well, I can tell you that the Blown Bird was strong and would keep on getting stronger as the blower did it's thing.
quote:
Originally posted by runt
Paul.[:)]
Cheers!
Chuck
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Chuck,
It seems a small world especially when I was scanning this thread. We used to live in St Charles, for five years, and when I acquired my 428 CF64 its history had it in Vancouver for many years.
We now all live (428 included) north of Sydney on the Central Coast of NSW Australia.
Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by Englishman
Chuck,
It seems a small world especially when I was scanning this thread. We used to live in St Charles, for five years, and when I acquired my 428 CF64 its history had it in Vancouver for many years.
We now all live (428 included) north of Sydney on the Central Coast of NSW Australia.
Peter
Hello Peter,
Pleased to have met your acquaintance... It is indeed a small world. Then again Mike from Seattle grew up in Elgin... How's that for small world? When did you live in "the Pride of the Fox"? The town's pretty much the same, although it's grown quite a bit. We now have two high schools and three middle schools, and I live within 5 miles of two Border's Books, and a Barnes and Noble Bookstore if you're familiar with those chains. The bridges are still a chokepoint during morning and afternoon rush hours and when the High Schools have let out.
While it's sad that an AC 428 escaped North America (especially for someone who would love to have a convertible, or Stick, or Left-Hand Drive) version someday, it's good to know CF64in good hands and perhaps gets a chance to make some fast runs.
Cheers!
Chuck
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Chuck,
We lived in Corron Glen off Corron Road 1994 through 1999 and our daughter graduated from one of the High Schools there.
I used to have a beer or two with Dave Corron at the Silverado in Wasco.
CF 64 is a fastback that started its life in the UK how it got to Vancouver I have no idea but would dearly like to find out. I have its Canadian history and that is about it.
Cheers
Peter
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quote:
Originally posted by Englishman
Chuck,
We lived in Corron Glen off Corron Road 1994 through 1999 and our daughter graduated from one of the High Schools there.
I used to have a beer or two with Dave Corron at the Silverado in Wasco.
It is a small world indeed... I went to High School with Ned Corron he was in the class that graduated a year behind my class. I live closer to town on the north side but still east of Randall.
It's still a great place to live although we have to endure the Bloomingdale Gold Corvette meet over at Pheasant Run for a long weekend every summer, with the attending mouse motor fumes and blue smoke... X-p
quote:
Originally posted by Englishman
CF 64 is a fastback that started its life in the UK how it got to Vancouver I have no idea but would dearly like to find out. I have its Canadian history and that is about it.
Cheers
Peter
LHD or RHD? Stick or Auto? Inquiring minds want to know!
Cheers!
-- Chuck