AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: Classicus on February 08, 2009, 16:40:24
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CFX 37
Original colour/ black & white pictures from UK "Car" Magazine road test.
Published January 1971.
"H" Car registration = 01 August 1969 ~ 31 July 1970.
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/index.spark?forumID=115841&p=3&topicID=16000798
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(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/CF37g.jpg)
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This car is magnificent and resides here in Southern California North of LA. Just beautiful. Will ask owner if he wants his name on the board. Emmanuel
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I went to see the car yesterday, it is in a private collection, it is magnificent! it did win it's class at Pebble Beach a few years back. Same color as mine, BRG and beige interior. It has a dark green carpet which is stunning, probably the nicest 428 in the world! Again Stunning!!!!!!!!!!
E
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/TF/DSC_0553.jpg)
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/TF/DSC_0512.jpg)
[:)]
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Great find, great pics and superb car ! Well done thanks Emmanuel [8D]
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By the way guys, I just heard the car is for sale, the owner wants $325K. This is the nicest one around! If anyone is interested, please let me know!
Emmanuel [:)]
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Well as the general pound/ dollar rate at this moment is approx. £0.6187, $325k equates to £201,077 !
Long, long overdue [8D] [8D] !!!!
http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html
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Well asking and getting are 2 entirely different things. Even as a Pebble Beach quality car and the best in the world I suspect that's over the current market value, but I guess a multi-millionaire that wants the best might pay that price. The lovely UK Convertible has now been up for sale for at least 18 months since it sold at auction ( and at that time in my opinion the dealer paid far too much for the car ) with no private takers and I doubt that jacking the price up another £ 30 or £ 40 thousand helped to sell it even in what's perceived as a rising market. Only cars that physically sell at a known price give an accurate indication as to market values, and even then you sometimes get a freak result at an auction when 2 or 3 wealthy bidders get carried away and don't want to lose out. In a way it's a shame if the cars suddenly rise into the stratosphere as mere mortals will never again be able to afford one ( lol it's ok if you have one already of course, although the downside is they become too valuable to drive or park anywhere ).
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True of course, but I think there's three new factors that could soon start coming into play as a result of this new asking price.
Firstly the rarity factor. I'm guesstimating that there are probably no more than some 20/ 30 cars known, out of perhaps a maximum of say 65/ 70 possibles left at most worldwide, where there is recent (within a year or so) online proof of any form of owner activity at all, so the chance of any car coming up for sale is severely limited even before you start. Secondly I think this must undoubtedly make it a seller's market. And finally, and yes sadly and most unfortunately for the poor likes of us, the 428 is gradually becoming an investment to be garaged in a portfolio alone and no longer a car to be seen, driven and enjoyed.
Personally though I'm really glad that if nothing else the old threat of becoming yet another Cobra replica has at least gone....
So roll on the Mark II AC Frua 428 ! [8D]
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Fortunately with the proliferation of other forms of Cobra replica's from fibreglass kits right up to 'Shelby continuations' once Frua's got over about £ 40,000 they were no longer viable to break up and turn into cobra's. Maybe if you came across a rolling chassis only for a Frua with the body completely destroyed in an accident or rotted away then it would be easier to fit a cobra body on it. However most of the aceca/cobra rebodies of 428's were done in the 1980's when Frua's were only worth about £ 10,000 and Cobras at that time about £ 70,000 or more. If the 428 shells were too damaged or rusty it was impossible to buy enough suitable panels or unfeasibly expensive to have them made like Emmanuel is now having done. I would have been happy if values had tailed off between £ 50000 and £ 100000 ( I still couldn't afford one these days !!! ) as this would be a respectable level but probably high enough to prevent chassis chops and conversions. Does anyone have a definitive figure for the number of 428's converted to Cobras/Aceca specials ( I think only 1 of the latter is known ? ). No doubt there are still 1 or 2 428's quietly rotting away under tarpaulins somewhere in the world as a small handful still seem to have no details recorded. With any luck they will now be worth restoring.
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It's been a while since any previously unknown 428s turned up, so you should be able to get some idea of existing Cobra etc. conversions from the totals at the bottom of the Register and Archive.
http://acfrua428.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=115841&topicID=20130103&p=3
I suppose the next question is when will someone decide it's worth converting them back to 428s.... ?
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It's probably reasonable when a very nice Maserati Mistral roadster will do in the mid $400k these days. The Frua is rarer but typically US engine cars will do less than so called more exotic engined one. The one exception is the Cobra and we all know where the Frua comes from. So I think people are finally learning that under that steel "bathtub" as a very well know Cobra guy once told me, lies an authentic Cobra coil springs chassis. It's too bad these cars were not built in alloy, they would be way more valuable today, because, 1: less corrosion issues and 2: alloy cars are just more exotic in people's minds.
But when you consider the whole vintage car market, 300 grands is not that much for such a rare automobile. As far as not driving them, all the Cobra guys out here, race or drive them all the time. Unlike a Maserati, which has a fragile drivetrain, the Ford stuff can take a beating and be repaired for a reasonable amount of money. And every suspension bits are available as well, so are brakes!
Emmanuel
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Useful to read the current situation with traced and untraced cars, I feel sure CF42 is alive and well hidden in someone's ( probably not a club member )garage as the renovation on her was finished in the mid 1980's by the person that bought her from me. He was quite elderly so I'm assuming sadly he is no longer around, so perhaps his sons/daughters still have the car if he didn't get bored with it and sell it. I suspect no more 'cobra conversions' will have been done in at least the last 15 years. I'm not sure any will ever be converted back to Fruas as the cost of re-lengthening the chassis and fabricating all of the unavailable body, trim/chromework, glass and interior parts would be prohibitive if not impossible.
Emmanuel, prices have suddenly jumped of certain cars in the States in the last 12 months or so, hence I guess in terms of rarity $ 300,000 is not insane for a perfect Convertible although I suspect he won't achieve that figure. I had no idea Maserati Mistrals could achieve that figure in America, in the UK you'd be very lucky to achieve anywhere like $ 150,000 for a roadster and $ 60,000 to $ 100,000 for a Mistral Fastback Coupe , I'm not sure about the rest of the European market values as they are of course left-hand drive like the USA.
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Brett hi, yes the Mistral roadster is achieving big money these days, I think because of the fact just a handful were made. The coupe on the other hand is quite reasonable. Lots of them have been converted to carburettors and that will seriously impact the value of the car. As for the Frua, corrosion was a big problem and also the fact that the cars were so cheap for a long time. Probably quite a few of them were owned by people who could not afford to service them properly of who just did not care. What I call the Midas or Pep Boys crowd. These shops do more damage to an automobile than years of neglect. I remember years ago when I was in school, a friend of mine who had a little Fiat Spider needed a muffler, he took the car to Midas for a replacement and when I saw it afterward, they had made holes in the boot to attach the new exhaust, I was amazed.
For rust repairs it's the same thing, it can be done right and it can be expensive or it can be done cheaply and it will make things worst in the long run.
In the case of my car, I believe it must have been sitting for years in some back alley or in the grass. Then some unscrupulous owner decided to do a "cosmetic" job on it, install a new interior and sell through auction for big bucks. I see no other explanation. This happens a lot in the vintage car market.it's like the matching number scheme here in the US. I am thinking about vintage Corvettes and jaguars, people will pay a big premium for this and unless you have documentation from new, with follow up with service bills on a regular basis through the life of the car, I will assume it's BS. I have seen cars which were not matching one day and were the next day. Yet people fall into this all the time!
Emmanuel [:)]
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The good thing about CFX37 is that it's ownership in the US is well known, the same people here in Los Angeles, have owned it since 1982 and re-sold it to each other. I believe it came from Switzerland. Being in Southern California for so long it has not been subjected to corrosion. As you know, we don't have salt on the roads and it rains just a few times a year over here. This is the only place I know where you can actually unbolt an exhaust system on a ten year old car.
Emmanuel
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You are right Emmanuel as many exotica were 'refreshed' in the 1980's and 1990's as the prices went up. People did not have the money or interest to substantiate doing 'proper' body off chassis restorations as the intention was to 'pretty' the cars up and make a profit in a rising market. This holds true for almost any medium value performance machine, and from a dealer's point of view it would no be possible to do a full restoration, just cosmetic improvements. There were less likely to be inferior repairs done on high value cars such as Bugatti's but they also tended to attract a differnt kind of owner to a Maserati, Iso, AC, Jensen, Aston etc. I take your point on the American obsession in recent years with 'matching numbers' Chevrolets, Mopars, Fords etc of the muscle years especially the rarest models. In recent years this has had a knock-on effect even here in the UK with buyers asking if a car is 'matching numbers' even if they don't really understand what it means or which makes/models can actually have matching numbers. I would say it is unlikely that anyone here would restamp blocks on their American car to achieve this result although there may well be some imported muscle cars with re-stamped blocks. There is probably a slight premium on the more desirable American cars here with matching numbers although not as much as there might be in USA. Thankfully common sense normally prevails. In fact we own a 1972 Corvette Convertible here with matching numbers ( at least the engine is, maybe not date matching engine ancillaries as I haven't checked ). It's fairly rare here as it's a Targa Blue 350 cu.in convertible with factory hard top and air conditioning. Not many over here and she is pretty good condition although not show condition.
But I'm still waiting for my lottey win so that I can buy your car when you get bored with it LOL !
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Brett hi,
Thanks, I hope my car turns out as nice as CFX37 above. The front left wing is taking forever as they have had problems shaping the lip. They tried 3 times to to it in one piece and it turned out to be impossible due it's shape. There are too many angles and when you shape one side the other goes. So now they have done it in 2 pieces, the front and the rear which were welded in one piece. Then there is an inner lip which needs to be welded right in the middle of the wheel arch. The other side is already done as only 2 small patches were required and the inner part was in good shape. By the way, the 72 vette, nice car, still a steel bumper car, they were the best looking.
Emmanuel [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by lyonheart84...here in the UK with buyers asking if a car is 'matching numbers' even if they don't really understand what it means or which makes/models can actually have matching numbers...
I saw an advert for an Ace Bristol "with matching numbers", but an 'AE' chassis number, which denotes AC, rather than Bristol engine. When I phoned them, they said "...it means it`s a correct engine for the car..."
After a fairly lengthy conversation, in which I mentioned informing the Trading Standards Authority, they decided to re-word the advert![B)]
Genuine ignorance, or trying to pull a fast one, I don`t know, but to be honest, I think the former! [}:)]
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LOL @ nikbj68 probably ignorance, I've found people thinking the same about American cars, that matching numbers means it's a correct type / size engine for the particular model, many don't realise that part of the engine number sequence actually matches part of the chassis number sequence. Whereas on something like a Jaguar / Triumph / MG matching numbers means the engine number matches the original Factory Records perhaps in the form of a Heritage Certificate or in the case of the Jaguar what is recorded on an original chassis plate.
@ Emmanuel yes I also prefer the look of the 72 Corvette as the last year with chrome bumpers front and back, also in the UK cars manufactured before 1973 are currently exempt from paying annual vehicle road tax, not a huge saving but still a nice feeling.
With reference to the front wing/fender lip manufacture I think you will be very interested to take a close look at the original factory wing/fender that I am sending Jeff, as you can clearly see ( as it is still in primer ) and has not been prepared for paint, the seams where the wing was assembled from several smaller sections which are welded together to make the complete unit.
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All news to me being hopeless about all things mechanical as usual [:I] For the Register anyone know what would be the "matching numbers" for the 428 ? Or Convertible and Fastback if they're different....
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@ Classicus if there is such a thing as matching numbers on a Frua, and it's been too long since I owned mine to remember the information given on the chassis plate, matching numbers means that a car still retains the ACTUAL ORIGINAL ENGINE block it left the factory with, i.e. has not been damaged beyond repair or removed from the car and changed for some other reason. I don't rememember if the chassis plate on 428's also showed the engine number ( a current owner will be able to confirm or deny this ) and I seriously doubt if there are any existing factory records showing the engine numbers fitted into each car. If the Frua chassis plate shows the engine number as well as the chassis number it would be a simple matter to inspect the engine block for it's number and see if it 'matches' that shown on the chassis plate and therefore would be 'matching numbers' and therefore the original block the car left the factory with. Thankfully on a car as rare as the Frua in my opinion it would not make any difference to the value of the car if the engine had been changed either to another 'correct' Ford 428 cu.in or an 'upgrade' 427 cu.in or 460 cu.in. It might however devalue the car if the engine was changed to a smaller block Ford 302 cu.in or 351 cu.in or even to a Chevrolet or Chrysler engine as this would be a considerable deviation from original.
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Thanks indeed for the clear explanation, I'll leave things as they are.
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My chassis plate only indicates a 7 liter engine, and a casting date. It could be a 428 or a 427. As with "original" Cobra roadsters, it really does not matter - improvements are considered a good thing, as long as the basic in-period components are intact.
Frua 428's were not fully developed, so it's my opinion that any non "chemical" (reversable) improvement is potentially a good thing.
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Emmanuel, as a postscript to your photographs above of CFX 37 and for the total anoraks among us ( !!! ),
when the interior was retrimmed ( it looks a superb re-trim, any idea when that was done ? ), the switches on the central dashboard were re-installed upside down ! Fortunately probably none of the judges at Pebble Beach would have known this or it might have resulted in a dropped point lol !
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Brett, the 460 is a different engine, much larger in size and of low power. It would not fit in the Frua engine bay without major surgery. It is of the "385" family which include the 429 and boss 429. The "385" engine family replaced the FE family in 1971. My car has an engine number stamped on the chassis plate, but it does not correspond to anything, it's not a Ford number as well so I don't know maybe AC stamped their own number somewhere, it could be that some countries required it, so it explains why some cars have a number on the chassis plate and some don't. There is no such a thing as a matching number Frua or Cobra for that matter since Ford did not have engine numbers at that time. However, they had engine date codes, which are well known to Ford collectors. However, AC I suspect used whatever engine they could find (possibly at the best possible price). Jeffrey's car if I remember correctly has a 67 police interceptor block, (he will correct me if I have the wrong date) while his car is a 69. Mine is a 71 and the block was a service block which makes sense since the 428 was phased out in 1970. The engine I use now is a 67 Ford Fairlane 427 Side Oiler with a custom made steel crankshaft which has the same stroke as the 428 resulting in a 454 cubic inch capacity or 7.5 liters. The crank was machined with rod journals slightly smaller to accommodate Chevrolet big block rods which are longer and give a better rod angle. I used Oliver Nascar steel rods which are probably overkill for my 550 hp.I bought the block from a drag racer who had it in reserve for 30 years. The 427 block has much bigger bores than the 428 and in side oiler form, has another oil gallery which goes directly from the oil pump to the main bearings giving priority oiling to the rotating assembly, it's also a high nickel block making it stronger. In racing, in the early 60's the early Ford FE s engine, 390, 408 and 427 experienced rod bearing failures under extreme conditions and Ford developed the Side Oiler as a result and solved the problem. AC built a few early Fruas with 427 and then used 428 engines. I understand the 427 could be ordered with a premium. Another advantage of the late 427 blocks is that they also had oil passages to the litters to accommodate hydraulic litters for those who so desire, early ones were solid lifters only. I wanted my car to be able to withstand spirited driving with a manual box for extended amounts of time. A little anecdote, the FE powered GT40 s that won Le Mans in the late sixties did so with completely stock 427 engines using a single Holley carburetor. Amazing!
CFX37 was restored by a well known shop here in Orange County. I don't know who did the interior.
Emmanuel [:)]
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Hi again Emmanuel, yes I did know the 460 was different, I was just generalizing about big blocks for the registrars benefit, I've also come across a number of the ( less desirable ) centre oiler 427's over the years. I knew your car had a 427 as I'd read all the previous correspondance. My father owned 3 genuine GT40's at the same time ( !!! ) in the late 1960's but they were road going versions with the 289 Engine, but quick enough for the road in those days. Your car will be quite some machine with that kind of power! I believe CFX37 was at Pebble Beach in the mid 1990's so must have been restored a long time ago. I would imagine AC bought a batch of blocks from Ford, but I seem to remember that engine supply difficulties interrupted Frua production as well as other problems. I'm fairly sure that only the prototype convertible CF1 had a 427 fitted but 1 or 2 others may have slipped out to customers with special influence or for road test / publicity purposes.
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You are correct, Emmanuel. Engine casting date and chassis plate agree: 1967. And it is a police interceptor reinforced Block with a "C" cast - same as the Shelby Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet Mustangs.
follow this link, and scroll down to C7ME-A with a "C". The pictures are of my block.
http://mustangtek.com/block/Block.html
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Brett, your right it was restored in the 90's but the current owner does not drive it and this is Southern California so it still looks brand new! Jeffrey loves his Police block, too bad he has got the taxi package camshaft to go with it! [:D][:D][:D][:D]
Emmanuel
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hahaha Emmanuel that was cruel to make the taxi camshaft comment, but I think Jeff will be laughing! Every Frua was rated at 345 BHP and 462 lbs ft Torque by AC but I suspect they all varied if different specification 428 blocks were used as none of the cars were dynamometer tested when new !
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No, it's an old joke I have with Jeffrey because he had his engine apart with the crank assembly off to be re-balanced and he let Dennis the engine builder talk him into doing nothing with the cam. We don't even know if the cam is original or if is a cheap aftermarket, it could be a pickup truck one made to give all the power and torque at low rpm. It's ultra smooth but dies at 4 grands. To be fair, the car has plenty of power but a nice modern hydraulic cam would have awakened it. Specially with those nice aluminum heads and the Holley 735 carburetor. I had the same set up on my 428 engine with a Crower hydraulic cam and the car would pull al the way to 6 grands in a big hurry!
Emmanuel [:)]
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Emmanuel gets endless pleasure teasing me for not putting in a new cam - and Dennis (the engine builder) did talk me out of changing the cam. His point was: I am not planning on racing the car, the engine runs well; so 'don't fix what ain't broke'.
Also, he felt it was better to do things incrementally, as it is easier to get things right if there are fewer variables in each step.
There's no reason to think the existing cam is not original. (Unfortunately, I did not look for the part number on the existing cam) The engine has very little wear, but does show signs of having been opened before.
We shall see. I expect it will be necessary to pull the engine when I put in Air Conditioning. When Emmanuels car is back on the road, we will be able to compare how they perform. Comparing them will be very helpful for me in deciding wether or not to change the cam.
I know what Emmanuel thinks. He is frequently correct about these things.
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I think Dennis was correct, if it ain't broke don't fix it ! Sometimes modern parts can be disappointing in quality. AC certainly engineered the Frua for massive torque which meant low stress on the other running gear. I'm not sure the original Salisbury differential will stand up too long to 500 BHP being used constantly. With modern heavy traffic, more and more bad drivers on the road, and rising gas prices maybe standard power is enough for a car being driven just a few times a year........
It will be interesting to see how you engineer in air-condtioning.
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The Salisbury differential is very strong. All the original cobras were equipped with them. (as far as I know)
Mike McCluskey makes a (kirkham supplied?) Aluminum cased version of the original. I saw them being assembled when my diff was on the bench. They seem to be up to the task, though they are not bullet-proof.
Apparently some people choose to use an improved Torsen diff. Strength, weight and power handling - depends on personal preference.
The availability of high quality parts for these cars is one of the great strengths of owning a Frua. Thanks to the great popularity of Cobras, all the running gear is available better-than-new! Materials, engineering - yet fits without having to alter anything.
Kirham makes high quality exact reproductions. There's an old fella here in Southern Cal who's workshop is full of original parts, and was part of 'ol Shel's team in the day. You want it? He's got it. If you can get him up to find it.
Now if only someone had the body panels...
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By-the-way; for me, this car is not for everyday use. It's best use would be for a tour. Either in a rally, or just an informal trip up the coast. Pebble Beach in August.
The Copperstate 1000 is a rally for which Frua's would be eligible. (1974 or older)
The cut-off date for the Colorado Grand is 1961. The California Mille accepts cars that were in existence in 1957 (A Jaguar 1961 xk150 would still be eligible, for example).
Unfortunate, as these are both really excellent events.
One of these days, I'll get to "Cars and Coffee" in Irvine, California. About a hour drive for me on an early Saturday morning.
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Jeffrey, let me correct you on the aluminum diff! The one you saw at McCluskey is not the Kikham one. My Kirkham was equipped with an aluminum diff and it was porous. Dennis pinned it a few times but it was still leaking. The only way to fix it would have been to coat it on the inside. I even sent it back to Kirkham and they swapped the cases, it was still leaking afterward, compared to the original cast iron design, they omitted two seals and that why the leak. The one you saw over there is a McCluskey one and it is awesome, no leak there.
Emmanuel [:)]