AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => 428 Frua Forum => Topic started by: cmaddox3 on October 13, 2007, 22:52:41
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Hello Gents!
I was looking at some old pictures of Olé UPG 428F just now and I saw [again] something that has bothered me for as long as my family has owned eld CF7:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/frua/old_upg428f.jpg)
If you look at an old photo [like the one above] from one of the Motoring magazine tests you'll notice that in the center of the nose there is an AC Badge...
However:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/front_765.jpg)
I know that CF 7 arrived in the US minus the center nose badge. [ It also appears that the driving/fog lamps have been relocated outboard of their earlier position on the front bumper -- Perhaps for better airflow?]
It appears that CF 7 once had a badge [as per reviews of CF 7]... while I'm normally not one for adding "Chrome" to a car, especially a design like Mr. Frua's, which doesn't need it, I would really like to know more about the center badge with the idea of having the option of restoring the car to it's original factory appearance.
Is it a "Vented" badge, or is it simply ornamentation?
Is it possible to source one of these badges and how would I go about doing so?
Also, what is everyone's opinion about adding/restoring something like this to CF 7? Is it a bad idea [value or sans-restoration wise], would it be a good idea [in particular if it's a small hidden vent]? Etc. I know that CF 7 being an early example, lacks some of the elements added to later examples [the P.Frua badges by the front quarter panel vents, and the AC vents behind the fuel fillers, but it appears to me that CF 7 was originally equipped with the center nose badge...
It also occurs to me that my dad managed to biff up CF 7's right front bumper back in the late 1970's [it's why it appears a bit wavy or less than straight in the color photo above]... I'd like to swap it out if possible if the part is available and price is reasonable/
Does anyone know if it's possible to source front bumper's for the 428?
Lastly, while I am pretty sure I have a complete brand new set of Avon's for the AC which my Dad managed to procure back in the day, I know for a fact that one of the Lucas [I believe] Fog/Driving lamps shattered and has no glass in it and is hence probably non-operational.
Does anyone have ideas for sourcing such lamps [preferably in the US but Britain would be fine too]?
At some point soon, I hope to find someone to assist me with the "reawakening" of CF 7 and I'm starting to think about getting some pieces and parts lined up that I'd like to have be part of the rejuvenation...
Thank you everyone for reading and thank you in advance if you have any insights to share. I don't know when I'll be able to move forward with "re-firing" plans, but Every little bit helps!
Cheers!
Chuck
P.S. Sorry for the long post, thanks for following along this far, but it's been awfully quiet in here lately. Perhaps this thread can become a quasi-permenent "Trading Post" area? Just a thought!
P.P.S. Perhaps another idea for a thread would be sources for parts for these cars... Where can one find replacement turn and tail lamps, etc...? What do you think? -- Chuck
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Chuck have a look at my post from a while ago alternatively look here for the badge; http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb29/clifford_039/?action=view¤t=DSC05475.jpg
Personally I think that you should definately replace what is missing from the original but not add any of the later cosmetic features that did not start life on your car.
I have the same driving/fog? lamps on mine but have removed them for the time being for cosmetic reasons. They are from memory standard Lucas issue, I can post a photo if it helps. In theory they should be obtainable in the UK.
The parts sourcing issue seems to be something that never really gets off the ground on this forum. Generally replies are made saying that whatever widget you require "comes up regularly on Ebay" (then you don't see it there ever again)or else nobody replies. It's worth being a club member - the last list of club parts did include some body panels although enquiry met a doubtful response from the member responsible who I believe is handing over the role. The really interesting bits (ie badges, bumpers, any thing unique) all seem to be unavailable however look at the club guide and you will see some reference to other parts suppliers. Brooklands Motor Company must have a fair idea of the specialist stuff, Hawk cars / Kirkham seem to have much of the Cobra compatible parts for engines, running gear etc.
Again there has been talk of rear lights matching Fiats but nothing more specific. Certainly my switches match those used on Austins but with a black rather than chrome surround.
The best advice ought to come from the members who have recently restored a car - but maybe they started with more or less complete cars.
I'd like to obtain certain new rubber mouldings and my Frua side badges are looking rather tired still I guess that having such a rare car results in scarcity of both parts and demand for such parts.
I wish you well on a planned restoration - if I can ever shift my surplus cars I may be in a position to start improvements of my own vehicle rather than fire-fighting the breakdowns and wear-outs (see my latest post)
Cliff.
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Have a look at this for the replacement light..
http://www.holden.co.uk/displayProduct.asp?pCode=LR8/C
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Try ' www.s-v-c.co.uk ' for Lucas driving/fog lights lower cost than Holden!
Robin
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Thank you both Clifford and Robin. I'll be investigating both sites you submitted soon. Might not be a bad idea to have spares.
BTW, what's the forum's concencus... Fogs or Driving lamps [or both]?
[I might be persuaded to install both for the Rallye look, but, it might detract fromt the classic lines... Hmmm.... Overheating is an issue too. Probably just stick with one or the other. I'm thinking driving as we shouldn't be driving such rare cars in fog!
-- Chuck
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Talking of driving/ fog lamps and overheating I've always wondered how the owner of ELH 185 J ever got anywhere !! [:0]
Query number 9). on the register.
(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/classicus/AC428-Reg.ELH185J.jpg)
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Chuck, I agree with Clifford as to the badge, and as for the lamps, these were of course fashionable addenda on all kinds of GT and sports cars of the 'sixties/seventies period, personally, I would say aesthetically the car is not improved by them, but.. as CF 7 is a historically significant factory demonstrator, I would fit a new set of that type (available in the U.K. as mentioned) and go for driving lamps; jmho!
The bumpers, others on here better qualified than I may suggest a source.
Paul.[:)]
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Some articles I found that might help ? [:)]
1. http://www.classiccarsmagazine.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=190
2. http://www.automedia.com/Confirming_a_Matching_Numbers_Vehicle/res20010101bn/1
3. http://www.automedia.com/Reviving_Original_Emblems/res20021101er/1
4. http://www.classiccarauto.com/impala/articles/restorable_car.shtml
Cass
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Is this the correct type of badge?
(http://images.andale.com/f2/114/108/32001686/2007/8/23/ACConvexed.jpg) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AC-CONVEXED-CAR-BADGE-CHROME-BONNET-C272_W0QQitemZ260172252264QQihZ016QQcategoryZ72185QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
It`s on eBay(click on pic), but has only a few hours left to run, finishing at 8:10pm tonight(UK time!).
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Is this the correct type of badge?
(http://images.andale.com/f2/114/108/32001686/2007/8/23/ACConvexed.jpg) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AC-CONVEXED-CAR-BADGE-CHROME-BONNET-C272_W0QQitemZ260172252264QQihZ016QQcategoryZ72185QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
It`s on eBay(click on pic), but has only a few hours left to run, finishing at 8:10pm tonight(UK time!).
Hi Nik,
Unfortunately, that isn't what I think it is. I wouldn't minded getting that one, but unfortunately, by the time I visited the forum, the auction had closed. I'll keep a sharper eye out though!
-- Chuck
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quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3
Hi Nik,
Unfortunately, that isn't what I think it is. I wouldn't minded getting that one, but unfortunately, by the time I visited the forum, the auction had closed. I'll keep a sharper eye out though!
-- Chuck
Don`t say I never do anything for you! Click the pic!
(http://i4.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/be/06/c12d_2.JPG) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ORIGINAL-AC-CLASSIC-CAR-ROUND-CHROME-BADGE-COBRA_W0QQitemZ200164665549QQihZ010QQcategoryZ9903QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
2 days to go on this one, it appears to be original, not a repro like the other one, and the guy has another, should you miss this one!!!
Damn, I`m good![;)] [8D]
[edit] The other one he has doesn`t look quite as good:
(http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/be/06/e591_2.JPG) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ORIGINAL-AC-CLASSIC-CAR-ROUND-CHROME-BADGE-COBRA_W0QQitemZ200164665921QQihZ010QQcategoryZ9903QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3
Hi Nik,
Unfortunately, that isn't what I think it is. I wouldn't minded getting that one, but unfortunately, by the time I visited the forum, the auction had closed. I'll keep a sharper eye out though!
-- Chuck
Don`t say I never do anything for you! Click the pic!
(http://i4.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/be/06/c12d_2.JPG) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ORIGINAL-AC-CLASSIC-CAR-ROUND-CHROME-BADGE-COBRA_W0QQitemZ200164665549QQihZ010QQcategoryZ9903QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
2 days to go on this one, it appears to be original, not a repro like the other one, and the guy has another, should you miss this one!!!
Damn, I`m good![;)] [8D]
[edit] The other one he has doesn`t look quite as good:
(http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/be/06/e591_2.JPG) (http://"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ORIGINAL-AC-CLASSIC-CAR-ROUND-CHROME-BADGE-COBRA_W0QQitemZ200164665921QQihZ010QQcategoryZ9903QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem")
Nik,
Snipe bids posted! I'll keep everyone posted. I don't be believe they are the right ones, but I'd love to have them just the same. Thanks for the shout out!
-- Chuck
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Good luck, Chuck. At the very least, you can fit an original, period badge until you can find one of the vented ones.
Nik.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Good luck, Chuck. At the very least, you can fit an original, period badge until you can find one of the vented ones.
Nik.
That's what I figure! Thanks again Nik, and I would never ever even imagining saying you never've done anything for me!
=)
Tally Ho!
-- Chuck
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
Don`t say I never do anything for you! Click the pic!
Nik,
I snagged them both. One went a little on the high side £26, the other low £3.19... The nicer one will be reserved for the car, the lesser one will be the "test mule"... I figure it would probably be best to paint the surround of the badge around the "AC" either black or the same color as the car. I'll post snaps when they arrive.
Thanks again! Owe you one!
-- Chuck
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quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3
I snagged them both. One went a little on the high side £26, the other low £3.19... The nicer one will be reserved for the car, the lesser one will be the "test mule"... I figure it would probably be best to paint the surround of the badge around the "AC" either black or the same color as the car. I'll post snaps when they arrive.
I`d say that`s a good result, average $30 each!
My instinct would be black surround, to match the steering wheel, but maybe(maybe!)(Wimbledon)white would work? colourmatched doesn`t strike me as too 'period' looking, but hey, it`s not my car![:D]
quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3Thanks again! Owe you one!
- Chuck
Yeah, next time I`m in your locale, you can take me out for a blast!
[8D]
Nik.
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quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68
quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3
I snagged them both. One went a little on the high side £26, the other low £3.19... The nicer one will be reserved for the car, the lesser one will be the "test mule"... I figure it would probably be best to paint the surround of the badge around the "AC" either black or the same color as the car. I'll post snaps when they arrive.
I`d say that`s a good result, average $30 each!
My instinct would be black surround, to match the steering wheel, but maybe(maybe!)(Wimbledon)white would work? colourmatched doesn`t strike me as too 'period' looking, but hey, it`s not my car![:D]
Well, here was what I was thinking:
(http://www.acautomotive.info/picts/acclock.gif)
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/front_765.jpg)
You see what I mean? If the surround was painted the same color blue as CF 7, it might look ok...
quote:
Originally posted by nikbj68quote:
Originally posted by cmaddox3Thanks again! Owe you one!
- Chuck
Yeah, next time I`m in your locale, you can take me out for a blast!
[8D]
Nik.
I'll have to have CF 7 streetable for that, but at this point at least the White Bird is good to go:
(http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/motorin/White_Bird/Brian_Bird_home_740.jpg)
So we'd have something to drive...
-- Chuck
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I have just discovered this forum and find it very interesting. I have owned CF6 - manual convertible - for nearly six years and have got my 'to do' list down to a manageable size! Perhaps I can add some info to this thread.
Front badge : I couldn't see Clifford's photobucket picture because my screen said 'illegal operation, shut down......' but then I understand cars more than computers. I think CF6 has a standard front badge setup. The badge is 2 3/16" diameter and looks like the ebay pictures and identical to the AC badges on Ace and Aceca- cast brass and chromium plated.The front panel has a hole surrounded by a chrome bezel on a rubber seating. The bezel is, in mm presumably ex Frua, approx 68.7 OD, 61.5 ID, 13.8 top depth and 25.0 bottom depth. The badge is mounted independently of the bezel and not in the plane of the front panel leaving a gap at the bottom, maybe 1/16", but I see this as an odd way to mount it rather than 'ventilated'. The background of my badge is painted black but I think it should be all chrome and unpainted. Without taking it apart I can't see how it is all assembled but I wonder if the hole in the front panel is necessary.
Fog/Spot lights : A subjective view but I think the beauty of the car is spoilt by the ugly lights and number plate. If I owned CF7 I would certainly transfer the lights to the stores. Italian plates were always small and they usually didn't make provision for standard size UK plates.CF6 has a small, probably illegal, plate just below the bumpers.
Rear lights : CF6 has Altissimo lights which were fitted also to Alfa Romeo Guilia 1600Ti and Super 4 door saloons 1962 to about 1965 - see police cars in the Italian Job film ? I think they were also fitted to some early Fiat 124 Spyders but not certain. Do all 428s have Altissimo? Some of the Guilias were fitted with lights by Carello which are better engineered than Altissimo; they are not identical but would fit the 428. I got Altissimo lenses from Classic Alfa in London - see Classic Alfa website. Run by Richard Norris - a nice chap and very helpful.
Rubber seals : I have given up on finding direct replacements. Do we know a keen 428 owner in Italy who might track them down? I did source in the UK sections for the 1/4 lights (a tricky job but OK) and 1/4 light frame to windscreen pillar (OK but needs a bit of detail development).
Parts sourcing : I agree with Clifford that we ought to pool our knowledge of parts which were not unique to AC and therefore could be available via another application.Some years ago Action published a list of Ace and Aceca crossreferences (eg Aceca door handle = P4 Rover and a Reliant) I have also seen a similar listing for the 3000ME. If we could get a 428 list started this would surely encourage others to add to it. I see a letter in the current Action along the same lines but think it is most likely to be achieved in this forum. Perhaps one of you with the IT skills could co-ordinate it but the contributions would be from many and would be peer reviewed and potentially changed before the listing became final.
Hope this contribution wasn't too long and that it may have been helpful.
Michael
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There is a company over here in Los Angeles which makes custom rubber seals for old cars. They have got hundreds of patterns for all kinds for cars of every origins and every countries but they need the original (even damaged) as a model. If you are interested I can give you their coordinates. On the Frua, the front quarter windows are the same as the Maserati Mistral, they have the same part numbers, so the seals are probably the same as well. (I had my car next to one, so I know for sure) The roll up glass is different however. After they make the correct pattern, then the original would not be needed anymore for reorder.
Front badge:
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q271/Emmanueld_2007/IMGP1406.jpg)
regards,
Emmanuel
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Hi Michael and welcome [:)]
Any chance of a couple of good colour pics and some background details etc. of CF 6 sometime to add onto the 428 Register ?
Thanks
Cass
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quote:
Originally posted by Classicus
Hi Michael and welcome [:)]
Any chance of a couple of good colour pics and some background details etc. of CF 6 sometime to add onto the 428 Register ?
Thanks
Cass
Agreed! It's GREAT to know that such a close brother of CF 7 is among the found! Even though we have the complete opposite configuration [trans/bodystyle]... BTW... Where [roughly - metro area/state/region] is CF 6 hailing from these days, Michael? CF 7 Resides in the Western Chicago Suburbs...
-- Chuck
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Hi Chuck:
CF-21 has an AC emblem exactly as shown in the magazine photos of CF-7. Because I bought CF-21 very soon after your dad bought CF-7 (and from the same seller), your car most likely suffered the fate of mine during shipment from the UK to USA: all the badging was methodically removed by the third-world sailors who crewed the transport ship (they were Greek in my case). When I got the car in San Francisco, the front emblem, the two emblems in the vents by the two gas-filler doors and the large AC emblem on the rear fascia near the tailight were ALL gone.
I wrote to AC and they were supremely helpful; months later a smallish cardboard box showed up in my mail from Thames Ditton and inside were all my missing emblems... no charge! Not even postage!
Those guys were great.
I don't know how to insert digital photos with this reply, but I'll send you a photo by e-mail.
Best Regards,
Mike Reed
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Hi Mike
Very interesting to read on another thread about Jim Feldman's long journey over to you and his keenness on getting the exact parts he wanted ! Is there any chance of him joining the Forum sometime as I've just uploaded details of both his cars CF 14 and CF 40 onto the Register - "The Gentleman's Express Club". Unfortunately it now sounds as though it's out of date already and he's just kept the convertible ?
quote:
Because I bought CF-21 very soon after your dad bought CF-7 (and from the same seller).....I don't know how to insert digital photos with this reply, but I'll send you a photo by e-mail.
Another problem that is beginning to emerge on the Forum is that one or two more recent owners of early dashboard cars (refer to anything about CF 9 in particular), and equally just as anxious to restore their own cars to as original a condition as possible, are having some difficulty in finding any exact pics to refer to.
So it would be really helpful if you could possibly include any interior and exterior colour pics of CF 21 as well, also to fill your blank entry on the Register at the same time. As you'll see we've already got quite a large number on there already !
Finally the usual way we all upload pics onto the forum is to start by opening a free Photobucket account.
Firstly click on
http://photobucket.com/register.php
Secondly click on the link below and then follow the instructions in the fifth post down by nikbj68. Any problems don't hesitate to ask.
http://www.racecar.co.uk/acoc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=145&whichpage=1
Hope to hear back from you soon [:)]
Cass
Intriguing name Rheinubung...
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Chuck
If you speak very nicely to Andy Shepherd the "AC 428" registrar and get a few interested members together he may well get some reproduced, The very subject was discussed at one of last years Council Meetings, Where Andy produced the correct badge and offered to carry out a feasiblity study to get some made.
As the old saying goes " If you don't ask, you don't get !" Don't ask, you don't want !!
Seriously, Make things happen Ask Andy.... the Impossible he Achieves, Miricles take a Little Looonnnngerrr.
Keith
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It's funny I just noticed that my front AC badge is the same as the 2 rear side badges on my friend Jeffrey's coupe.
Emmanuel
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Cass and Chuck
I don't think I can manage pictures but I shall borrow somebody's seven year old to show me how and post some later. In the meantime some background.
CF6 has lived in the northeast corner of Hampshire since I bought it in 2002. It is a manual convertible in dark blue with black trim, on 6 1/2" Minilite wheels and has a 3.071 (43/14) axle. According to the history file which came with the car, the engine was replaced in 1969 after overheating and seizing (there's a surprise!). The Ford part number cast in the iron cylinder heads and the Ford engine tag suggest this replacement is 428CJ spec - is this normal or did they just happen to have a Cobra Jet spec engine at Thames Ditton at the time?
Non standard items include: Edelbrock water pump, Performer RPM heads and Performer 390 inlet manifold, fabricated exhaust manifolds/headers, 2 off Kenlowe 8" engine bay extraction fans, larger coolant expansion tank, heater removed (summer motoring only) but separate screen demist system, inertia reel seat belts, battery isolator in place of fuel filler, aluminium fuel tank with integral filler - capacity 20.25 gallons imperial ( 24.3 US gallons), revised boot lid gas strut geometry so lid is self supporting and stays open in a wind, Spax dampers and stiffer coil springs all round.
CF6 was first registered ULN 461F on 27 May 1968 to the first owner in London. Second owner in Sussex 1987 to 2000. Third owner in Berkshire 2000 to 2002. Indicated mileage is 42,000 but I reckon true mileage is more like 60,000. In 1995 it had a fortunate(!) spin which damaged all 4 corners and an insurance company paid out £35K, which was enough to cover a complete body rebuild which got rid of most of the corrosion.
Michael
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Hi, God knows what engines AC installed in customer cars! However, you can check for sure what motor is in the car. To my knowledge, AC only installed the basic truck 428 motor and a few 427s.
1) The 428 CJ first came out in 67 following the demise of the 427.
2) Unless you pull the oil pan and look at the engine block and the rods you can't determine if the engine is regular 428 or CJ or SCJ. CJ and SCJ blocks have ribbed main bearing castings. SCJ engines have Lemans rods and different engine balance, SCJs' were installed in 4 speeds Mustangs with short rear end ratios for extra reliability at high rpm.
3) The 3.08 rear end suggests that your car came from the factory with a manual box.
4) Edelbrock performer aluminum heads and water pump are a great modification to these engines, they run cooler and are compatible with modern low octane unleaded fuel. Headers are a great addition because the original manifolds are extremely restrictive. If you engine is equipped with the proper Holley 735, power should easily exceed 400 horsepowers.
Your car seems great to me, check out this interesting site on 428 CJ specs.
http://www.428cobrajet.org/id-main.html
Regards,
Emmanuel [:D]
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Emmanuel
Thanks for your helpful comments. Re carbs - CF6 has a Carter with manual choke fitted by the previous owner. It's marked with a tag top front 'Carter AFB Competition Series'/W WEBER cast in left side (a joint venture?)/stamped 9755 S 0220 at front right hand of base. I have not been able to identify it but it seems to work fine. Would you chaps over there rate it good, bad or indifferent for a 428?
Re rubber seals, thanks for your offer - I would much appreciate the contact details of the Los Angeles supplier so I can send them a sample and see what they may be able to do.
Regards
Michael
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Michael,
This is a newer "competition series" (post-1985) carburettor. While some of the units say Carter, they were actually produced for Federal Mogul by Weber. The Federal Mogul/Weber/Edelbrock AFB-clones should not be confused with the genuine Carter AFB carburetors. It is an evolution of it and most parts are not interchangeable. This is a 750cfm unit and it never came stock on a Ford. I think they are only sold by Edelbrock now and manufactured by Magneti Marelli Powertrain USA Inc. a successor company to Weber. If the carb is properly setup, it should run fine. However, It might be a tad too large for a 428 motor with a stock cam. For me the Holley is superior but it is a matter of taste and habit. Holleys can be tuned just about indefinitely!
http://www.edelbrock.com
Good luck!
Emmanuel
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Can't help you on other matters but I did investigate the under bumper lights recently for another reason.
I discovered that they were supplied obviously in pairs but oddly they were often fitted as fog on nearside and spot on the offside.
They were known as 'Square Eights'. Originals were all chrome but the later versions had a black plastic body. I even managed to find a part number as they were manufactured by Lucas. However, when I contacted Lucas I was told they hadn't been made for a few years. In the end I counted myself very lucky to pick up a very smart pair on ebay for approx 150 US $
I have seen others on ebay UK since and also on the elan.net site as they were fitted to Lotus Elan +2's and many of those cars are parted out these days.
Good luck,
David
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Why not try ' www.s-v-c.co.uk ' they do a range of lights which may suit & are at reasonable cost!
Robin