AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum => Topic started by: Chafford on July 24, 2011, 20:42:44
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Is this car a Cobra or an Ace?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twKXjrOGKrk
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The cars history is fully described in the ACOC Ace Register (http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/members area/models/ace/AceRegister_2010_12.pdf). The the ACOC registers make clear, the car is neither a 'Cobra' nor a 'Cobra Replica'; it is a modified Ace.
Please post any further enquiry to the Ace, Aceca and Greyhound forum.
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I've had a look at the register, but in my opinion, the only 'Ace' in this car is its 1960 chassis number and title. The car now has a Cobra body shell and chassis, a 289 engine with top loader transmission and Cobra wheels and was built by AC in 1966 at Thames Ditton. It's a Thames Ditton Cobra and should be classified as such.
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Hmmm, interesting example of fuzzy logic, murky waters and personal preference definitions...
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I suppose the question is whether a chassis plate defines the identity of a car. If it looks like a Cobra and barks like a Cobra it must be an .... Ace??
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
I've had a look at the register, but in my opinion, the only 'Ace' in this car is its 1960 chassis number and title. The car now has a Cobra body shell and chassis, a 289 engine with top loader transmission and Cobra wheels and was built by AC in 1966 at Thames Ditton. It's a Thames Ditton Cobra and should be classified as such.
So based on this skewed logic, a Sunbeam Alpine can be morphed into a legitimate Sunbeam Tiger by anyone by changing the running gear, moving the battery, changing emblems and a few other sundry items?
Those are called 'Algers'. I call them fakes.
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Not just anybody... AC, at the Thames Ditton factory...that's why my reply was "fuzzy logic". Really, would that be a fake also? This case is good evidence of how narrow minded this "real or not" conversation really can be...
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
I've had a look at the register, but in my opinion, the only 'Ace' in this car is its 1960 chassis number and title. The car now has a Cobra body shell and chassis, a 289 engine with top loader transmission and Cobra wheels and was built by AC in 1966 at Thames Ditton. It's a Thames Ditton Cobra and should be classified as such.
Well having done some further research, I had better correct my earlier posts [B)] (based on a different source). The components for the MkIII chassis were supplied by AC and the bodywork was reworked as a MkIII from the original car. But in its current form, very much a Cobra rather than an Ace and a very nice car!
http://www.bonhams.com/eur/auction/14261/lot/247/#
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IT is, however, still a re-worked Ace, with an Ace chassis number, as it was never built (and recorded in the production register with the appropriate COB, COX or CSX number) as a Cobra.
Start calling it a Cobra and that will be reflected in the value. Like the Ace-that-was-an-Aceca (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1223") issue, which is still recorded as an Aceca, just because it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it could still be a goose. In my humble opinion. [;)]
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well taken and agreed, but, not a "fake", at least I would not call it that. I'd say that's a term for a Kirkham or Dax. Although I prefer the term "replica" better....It's a little kinder...
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In my humble opinion, unless the conversion was documented at the factory, this car is a reproduction. If AC did it, there was an invoice at the very least. It's too easy to get a MKIII chassis these days. Also the motor has a lot of modern bits like the Japanese nippondenso alternator and the horrible billet expansion box. It's a nice looking car nevertheless, but a real Cobra or Ace it is probably not. There is a guy over here who owns an Ace in crates and has mounted the chassis plate to his Kirkham. There is another area that is suspicious, the seats. Most reproduction seats have a thick backrest like those in the picture. Original Cobra seats were thin. Ace seats I don't know, please advise.
Gus, replica is a better term. A fake is a car that pretends to be an original and is not. A Kirkham with a Ace or Cobra chassis number is a fake.
Emmanuel[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Emmanueld
In my humble opinion, unless the conversion was documented at the factory, this car is a reproduction. If AC did it, there was an invoice at the very least. It's too easy to get a MKIII chassis these days. Also the motor has a lot of modern bits like the Japanese nippondenso alternator and the horrible billet expansion box. It's a nice looking car nevertheless, but a real Cobra or Ace it is probably not. There is a guy over here who owns an Ace in crates and has mounted the chassis plate to his Kirkham. There is another area that is suspicious, the seats. Most reproduction seats have a thick backrest like those in the picture. Original Cobra seats were thin. Ace seats I don't know, please advise.
Gus, replica is a better term. A fake is a car that pretends to be an original and is not. A Kirkham with a Ace or Cobra chassis number is a fake.
Emmanuel[:)]
For the sake of clarity, I called Sunbeam Alpines that are converted and touted as Tigers, fakes. They are typically known as 'Algers'. The JAL # plate etc is affixed to it from a real Tiger.
I was not referring to the modified Ace in question as a fake.
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A Snake.
Cobra seats have a curved back rest where as Ace Seats have a flat back. Not sure but the side support could be different and the number of pleates in the Seat Swab and Back could differ.
Refer to Original AC Ace & Cobra by Rinsey Mills
I believe you will find most Cobra Copies ( Fakes / replicas / Continuations .. What Ever !! ) fit modern Cobra style seats as they are readily available and far cheaper than buying repro seat frames and having them correctly upholstered.
Keith
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If the car in question is not logged or classified in the AC Chassis Register as an AC Cobra (or Ace-Cobra if we're being pedantic) then it is 'something else'. In this case it's an Ace.
Spent today watching an AC Ace being built into a Cobra in ever single respect - it is still, and will always be, a 'modified AC Ace' as that was it was originally. Might be a 'Cobra' in every single detail, but when it comes to selling time (the crunch) it is what it is - a modified Ace. Any other description can be interpreted as fraud.
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quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
If the car in question is not logged or classified in the AC Chassis Register as an AC Cobra (or Ace-Cobra if we're being pedantic) then it is 'something else'. In this case it's an Ace.
Spent today watching an AC Ace being built into a Cobra in ever single respect - it is still, and will always be, a 'modified AC Ace' as that was it was originally. Might be a 'Cobra' in every single detail, but when it comes to selling time (the crunch) it is what it is - a modified Ace. Any other description can be interpreted as fraud.
Always a pity when this happens - what's the chassis number of the Ace?
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The Bonhams listing indicates "This car started life in 1960 as a standard AC Ace Bristol" but also indicates the car has an "AE" ID number. After that I'd question the accuracy of the rest of the info.
The listing also indicates that while the suspension components were provided by AC the suspension mods and framework were not done by AC and so it really does not have a Mk III chassis, just various bits and pieces with the rear suspension modified as necessary to get the handling characteristics they desired.
In addition IMO the front flares make the car a pretty ugly modified Ace. Not nearly as pretty as a true Mk III.
John
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quote:
Originally posted by AC Ace Bristol
A Snake.
Cobra seats have a curved back rest where as Ace Seats have a flat back. Not sure but the side support could be different and the number of pleates in the Seat Swab and Back could differ.
Refer to Original AC Ace & Cobra by Rinsey Mills
I believe you will find most Cobra Copies ( Fakes / replicas / Continuations .. What Ever !! ) fit modern Cobra style seats as they are readily available and far cheaper than buying repro seat frames and having them correctly upholstered.
Keith
Thank Keith, but it was Emmanueld that had the question on seats, not I [;)]
However to add to your reply, not all Aces had flat back seats. Some of the very late cars were delivered with the same seats used in 289 Cobras. There were Aces being delivered even after 90 or so Cobras had been delivered to SAI.
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Bonhams estimate is ACE money
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinghorse
Bonhams estimate is ACE money
Back in 2006
quote:
Originally posted by TLegate
Spent today watching an AC Ace being built into a Cobra in ever single respect - it is still, and will always be, a 'modified AC Ace' as that was it was originally. Might be a 'Cobra' in every single detail, but when it comes to selling time (the crunch) it is what it is - a modified Ace.
Given the current high prices for Aces, I can't see that it makes any financial sense to rebuild an Ace as a Cobra. Personally, if I were in the market for such a car I'd spend my money on an AC Heritage built new Cobra rather than on a rebuilt Ace. Less explaining to do and an additional AC would be created as a result.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Personally, if I were in the market for such a car I'd spend my money on an AC Heritage built new 289 Roadster or a AC 427 Cobra rather than on a rebuilt Ace. Less explaining to do and an additional AC would be created as a result.
Fixed your post. AC Heritage can not produce a Cobra [;)]
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Did it occur to you that 'financial sense' might not be a part of the decision? Clearly not.....
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Keep in mind when this car was modified. The AC engine broke and was replaced by a Triumph 2500 in 1965 and then wrecked and converted to a Cobra in 1969.
A friend purchased a wrecked but running and drivable Ace Bristol in 1965 for $700. (Very good condition other than there were NO straight body panels!) Another $300 repaired the body.
I purchased RS5024 in 1973 or so for $1,800 US and sold it a couple years later for $2,000.
I have a suspicion that the reason RS5024 has not surfaced is that given the cost $4,000 vs. $10,000 it was modified into a replication of a Cobra (no body work required other than small fender flares). For $5,000 you had for all intensive purposes a leaf spring early Cobra.
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I also note that the car in question did not sell in 2006(at Bonhams),and other Aces from a quick check of "motorbase",shows 2 Aces in 2006/7 sold for £72k,and £115k at auction. I dont think Cobra's were changing hands then for Bonhams suggested price range-likley double.
A Mk2 again from motorbase sold for circa £240k in 2006
What is facinating about the Bonhams listing is what people do to their cars after incidents,especially when a model or its sucessor is still in production.Another interesting points of this thread to me and likley should be on the ACE/ACECA site,was the original engine breakage -I thought it was a Bristol engine (As per the Bonhams listing) and thought the Bristol bottom ends quite reliable,so had a interest in how it "broke".It appears that the chap then went on to break the Triumph engine as well....
That in itself might be good reason to go V8 powered.
Financial sense and cars as Trevor points out dont work,unless you are lucky.Enthusiasts dont always make the right decisions for their cars at the time. What might have seemed sensible in the 70's is now frowned on.
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinghorse
I also note that the car in question did not sell in 2006(at Bonhams),and other Aces from a quick check of "motorbase",shows 2 Aces in 2006/7 sold for £72k,and £115k at auction. I dont think Cobra's were changing hands then for Bonhams suggested price range-likley double.
A Mk2 again from motorbase sold for circa £240k in 2006
What is facinating about the Bonhams listing is what people do to their cars after incidents,especially when a model or its sucessor is still in production.Another interesting points of this thread to me and likley should be on the ACE/ACECA site,was the original engine breakage -I thought it was a Bristol engine (As per the Bonhams listing) and thought the Bristol bottom ends quite reliable,so had a interest in how it "broke".It appears that the chap then went on to break the Triumph engine as well....
That in itself might be good reason to go V8 powered.
Financial sense and cars as Trevor points out dont work,unless you are lucky.Enthusiasts dont always make the right decisions for their cars at the time. What might have seemed sensible in the 70's is now frowned on.
Agreed this would be better on the Ace site.
The point you and others have made about decisions taken in the 60s and 70s is a good one. However given the Ace's value and rarity today, I just can't fathom why someone would want to destroy an original car to create a replica of something else. Sticking an Ace chassis number on a Kirkham merely invites ridicule, and papers for historic racing don't depend on a historic chassis number.
Anyway there's no accounting for taste. Let's hope a 2.6 isn't being used as a basis for this new creation![V]
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The said vehicle under discussion is for sale here for £135k:
http://dealerservices.autotrader.co.uk/281674/used-cars.htm Brooklands Exeter.
States here
" Finished in Guardsman Blue with Black Leather and originally sold by the AC factory as an AC Ace with the 6 cylinder AC Engine"
not Bristol engine (unlike Bonhams listing in 2006)
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I had a very nice chat with Steven Walls from Brooklands of Exeter not long after the AceBra was consigned to them back in March, to suggest some amendments to their description, which at the time I think had little or no reference to it`s Ace origins. In conjunction with the Motorbase listing (http://"http://www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/2038364049/")(supplied by an ACOC 'cobraexpert' within minutes of my call) he was happy to amend. As far as I know, the AC is on a commission sale basis.
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Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm
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$200,000 */- for this car is probably about right considering that AC Bristols have been selling for mid to high $200,000 recently.
The 1968 COX car at Hexigon (for $620,000 US)sounds a little high considering that true CSX 289 Cobras have been going for $500-700,000 US at auction recently.
It looks to me that modifying a desirable car causes a 20-30% reduction in value (if not more). But at the end of the day it's all dependent on what buyers are will to pay if they find something desirable.
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The point you and others have made about decisions taken in the 60s and 70s is a good one. However given the Ace's value and rarity today, I just can't fathom why someone would want to destroy an original car to create a replica of something else. Sticking an Ace chassis number on a Kirkham merely invites ridicule, and papers for historic racing don't depend on a historic chassis number.
Anyway there's no accounting for taste. Let's hope a 2.6 isn't being used as a basis for this new creation![V]
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In many cases, an original car may not be "destroyed" as mods have occurred over many years that have taken the car to a completely different configuration. A case in point is AEX1078 which currently sits as a chassis that had a V8 installed and suffered from significant other changes over its life For <$3k, I can have another V8 power train, or can go back to original (with different AC engine) which will likely set me back on the high side of $20K. Which makes financial sense? If I want to drive and enjoy my car in the short term, going with a V8 makes sense. If I want to go for resale value, then finding an AC engine would make more sense. The bottom line is, it all depends on what an owner's desire is, not what others think that drive what a person does with their car.
For the record, I agree that modifying a car that is still original would be a sacrilege, but I believe that is no longer the norm except for some 428 cars.
On the related note of using an Ace Chassis number on a Kirkham, there are some reasons that might be done. In California, the state makes it very difficult to register replica cars and so people look for ways to get there cars registered. In the case of the Kirkham, the person may be doing this so he can drive his car and has no desire to go racing.
Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
$200,000 */- for this car is probably about right considering that AC Bristols have been selling for mid to high $200,000 recently.
The 1968 COX car at Hexigon (for $620,000 US)sounds a little high considering that true CSX 289 Cobras have been going for $500-700,000 US at auction recently.
It looks to me that modifying a desirable car causes a 20-30% reduction in value (if not more). But at the end of the day it's all dependent on what buyers are will to pay if they find something desirable.
I doubt if the UK market differentiates between 'CSX', 'COB' and 'COX' chassis for Thames Ditton produced '60s Cobras. The price for the Hexagon car may reflect the fact that it's one of the rare coil spring MKIII 289 Sports and one which hasn't been converted to a 427.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm
Use of the 'Cobra' model name and Mk Numbers has become confused over the years, non more so than for Thames Ditton made coil-spring cars.
In their 1960s publicity, AC Cars made a very clear differentiation between coil-spring cars they manufactured for Shelby, and those for AC Cars.
For the record, to my best understanding the facts from the 1960s can be summarised as follows:
a. The coil-spring chassis was the Mk II chassis;
b. There was no known formal MkIII designation by the factory;
c. 315 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars under contract for Shelby, who marketed the cars as the 'Shelby Cobra ...';
d. 27 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars for their own purposes. These cars were marketed as the 'AC 289 Sports'.
e. In period, there was no coil-spring car marketed as an 'AC Cobra 289 MkIII'.
John
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
The 1968 COX car at Hexigon (for $620,000 US)sounds a little high considering that true CSX 289 Cobras have been going for $500-700,000 US at auction recently.
I'm curious about your comment about the price of a AC 289 Sport. Are you suggesting that the market on those is below the market of a leaf spring Cobra? (comparable cars of course)
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOCArch
quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm
Use of the 'Cobra' model name and Mk Numbers has become confused over the years, non more so than for Thames Ditton made coil-spring cars.
In their 1960s publicity, AC Cars made a very clear differentiation between coil-spring cars they manufactured for Shelby, and those for AC Cars.
For the record, to my best understanding the facts from the 1960s can be summarised as follows:
a. The coil-spring chassis was the Mk II chassis;
b. There was no known formal MkIII designation by the factory;
c. 315 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars under contract for Shelby, who marketed the cars as the 'Shelby Cobra ...';
d. 27 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars for their own purposes. These cars were marketed as the 'AC 289 Sports'.
e. In period, there was no coil-spring car marketed as an 'AC Cobra 289 MkIII'.
John
However the use of Mk I, II and III is now well established, not least by Brian Angliss with the MkIV which logically follows the MkIII.
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I'm curious about your comment about the price of a AC 289 Sport. Are you suggesting that the market on those is below the market of a leaf spring Cobra? (comparable cars of course)
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While the later COX cars may be improved and make better drivers/track cars, I believe the 1963-1967 Shelby cars will always sell at a premium.
Even barnfinds in need of restoration (i.e. CSX2289 selling for $610,000 in January by Gooding) seem to bring premium prices.
As someone indicated, it all depends on the buyer and their desires, needs and ability to pay.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm
Is £399,000 over priced for a very orignal 289 Sports over priced being 1 of 27 cars built , I would not think so,it seems to be priced inline with a leaf spring 289 Cobra.Also alot more desirable .
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quote:
Originally posted by ACOCArch
quote:
Originally posted by Chafford
Makes an interesting comparison with Hexagon's genuine LHD 289 Sports on sale at £399,000
http://www.hexagonclassics.com/car_sales/AC-Cobra-289-MK111/3286.htm
Use of the 'Cobra' model name and Mk Numbers has become confused over the years, non more so than for Thames Ditton made coil-spring cars.
In their 1960s publicity, AC Cars made a very clear differentiation between coil-spring cars they manufactured for Shelby, and those for AC Cars.
For the record, to my best understanding the facts from the 1960s can be summarised as follows:
a. The coil-spring chassis was the Mk II chassis;
b. There was no known formal MkIII designation by the factory;
c. 315 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars under contract for Shelby, who marketed the cars as the 'Shelby Cobra ...';
d. 27 coil spring cars were made by AC Cars for their own purposes. These cars were marketed as the 'AC 289 Sports'.
e. In period, there was no coil-spring car marketed as an 'AC Cobra 289 MkIII'.
John
I totally agree, these cars were never marketed as the MK1,2,3.
"However the use of Mk I, II and III is now well established, not least by Brian Angliss with the MkIV which logically follows the MkIII."
These cars are not well established as mk1,2,3 they are well established as AC /Shelby Cobra 260,289 & 427`s
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quote:
Originally posted by jrlucke
While the later COX cars may be improved and make better drivers/track cars, I believe the 1963-1967 Shelby cars will always sell at a premium.
As someone indicated, it all depends on the buyer and their desires, needs and ability to pay.
I can understand that a leaf spring COX/COB car might trade for less than a CSX leaf spring car due to the Shelby connection. Perhaps a COX/COB coil spring car will trade for less than a 427 CSX car, however the attributes of a AC 289 Sport, IMO, make it more desirable than a leaf spring CSX car. I think only 8 were produced in LHD and a number of those have been converted to 427's. So there are only a couple remaining left hand drive AC 289 Sports.
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A-Snake , I think you have hot the nail on the head,this is a very desirable car.
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I'm a bit late to this thread but am newly signed up to the Forum so please bear with me. I had a careful look through the "history file" of AE1138. In fact this consisted only of old race entry programmes, results sheets, photos, etc and nothing by way of documentation to substantiate the story of it having a new AC chassis or other components. The typed up sheets summarising the car's claimed history say that it was crashed heavily at the 1966 Silverstone 6hr relay race. After that accident it was supposedly laid up for an unspecified number of years then converted into a "Cobra"; however the race entry programmes show a different story with the car still being entered in competitions into the 1970s with a Triumph 2500 engine. At this point I decided to walk away.
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quote:
Originally posted by AKL1405
I'm a bit late to this thread but am newly signed up to the Forum so please bear with me. I had a careful look through the "history file" of AE1138. In fact this consisted only of old race entry programmes, results sheets, photos, etc and nothing by way of documentation to substantiate the story of it having a new AC chassis or other components. The typed up sheets summarising the car's claimed history say that it was crashed heavily at the 1966 Silverstone 6hr relay race. After that accident it was supposedly laid up for an unspecified number of years then converted into a "Cobra"; however the race entry programmes show a different story with the car still being entered in competitions into the 1970s with a Triumph 2500 engine. At this point I decided to walk away.
The latest advert states that the V8 engine and gearbox were fitted in the 1970s - you'd hope the dealer might know when in the decade they were fitted.
http://dealerservices.autotrader.co.uk/281674/used-cars.htm
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The dealer seems to know very little. They were apparently selling the car for a customer, Mark Reece. He has an interesting background:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7505871.stm
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Well, I finally got to see the AceBra at the NEC on the Runnymede Motor Company (http://"http://www.runnymedemotorcompany.com/")`s stand at the NEC Classic Show in Birmingham recently. Funny, it was £125,000 at the show, but it`s not on their website, has gone from the Brooklands of Exeter site, and is now on the Sussex Sports Cars (http://"http://www.sussexsportscars.co.uk/classic_cars/98/ac/") site for £135,000!
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/AE1138%20at%20NEC%20Classic%202011/DSCF9261-1.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/AE1138%20at%20NEC%20Classic%202011/DSCF9259-1.jpg) (http://"http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/AE1138%20at%20NEC%20Classic%202011/")
(Click pics for more in my gallery.)
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OHH the murky waters of Identity!
My feeling is that if a car is modified for the enjoyment of the owner that is up to them and I see no reason that they should do what they like to their property.
Where I do have a problem is when cars are advertised or published as some thing that they are not or to have history that they do not warrant for the sake of profit.
In this case the car in question has an Identity of a production Weller engined Ace, as such it should be described as a modified Ace.
To describe it as a Factory Cobra could potentially miss lead a future purchaser of the car who may not be as knowledgeable as many of the members on this Forum.
The moral of the story is 'Do your research and make your own judgement before you buy any high value car. Don't just rely on a description in a sales catalogue because at the end of the day they are only as good as the person researching that car'