AC Owners Club Forum
AC Owners Club Forum => Cobra (Thames Ditton) Forum => Topic started by: Cobra Ned on August 12, 2014, 15:35:21
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An interesting Cobra-like vehicle has been posted to the website Barnfinds.com. It can be seen at: http://barnfinds.com/cobras-in-barns-yep-they-are-still-out-there/
The owner says the car is not for sale, but maintains it is a genuine Cobra because it supposedly has a CSX VIN. Yet it is RHD and has an FE (big-block) engine in it. I wonder how many RHD AC Cobras were given a CSX VIN and an FE motor?
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There is just something about this car, despite all the things that appear 'wrong', that seems right.
Converting to RHD, shoehorning an FE in, buggering about with bits of damaged bodywork & lights could all have occured in the 70`s, (even the inboard rear brakes, although that would be a job and a half), but those sidepipes would surely strangle a big block?!
There`s not really enough to make a call one way or the other from these photos, but I`d really like to know more!
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Yes, but look closely at the dimensions of the body work as well as the exposed trunk hinges. Does anything there say AC to you? It didn't to me.
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Agreed, Sir Ned, there are a lot of 'not right' things about it, but there are several things that say AC to me; albeit perhaps not Cobra!
It reminds me very much of the "AceBra" AE1138 (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1957"), compare the photos below:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/AE1138%20at%20NEC%20Classic%202011/DSCF9261-1.jpg)
(http://barnfinds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1964-cobra-rear-600x374.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/AE1138%20at%20NEC%20Classic%202011/DSCF9259-1.jpg)
(http://barnfinds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1964-cobra-by-the-barn.jpg)
Some of the comments are strange, like the guy who can see MkIV features that aren`t there, or quote:"This car is a restore project, I know the guy & have pics of the body strapped to the top of his jag when he bought it, and got pulled over by the police for having a dangerous load on top!!!!", but the 2 fuel tanks, requiring external hinges for clearance is plausible.
So, I suspect that if it did indeed leave Thames Ditton, it did so without a CSX number, and obviously without or for an FE, or a T10 box, or inboard brakes, but it does look unlike a replica, coz no-one would make a replica look like that!
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I suspect is is bunch of used parts and some alloy body bits cobbled together to create car. I await with interest the supposed CSX chassis number it claims to have.
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Look at the orientation and location of the wiper wheel houses. They should each be located inboard of the bonnet latches.
I call this a 'bitsa' =^)
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Am advised it was an Ace, once upon a time. I'd suggest throwing it off a cliff but I see someone already did....
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The answer to Ned's original rhetorical question ("how many RHD AC Cobras were given a CSX VIN?) is None.
The Ford design engineer's respect for detail would have 289 Register members in fits.
Could be one for the Ace register, but I doubt it. I can't see a continuous history vehicle being turned into such a mess, not even a Zephyr.
RS
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quote:
Originally posted by rstainer...Could be one for the Ace register, but I doubt it. I can't see a continuous history vehicle being turned into such a mess...RS
It may well be a candidate for the Ace register, in the same way that this Ace that is an Aceca (http://"http://www.acownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1223") belongs on the Aceca register, with possibly similar history gaps, and I would say it`s less of a mess too!:
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q113/nikbj68/DMT70cc.jpg)
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If that blue pile of junk has a genuine (Cobra) chassis number, you can call me Doris.
Interesting degree of toe-out on the rear wheel, unless you actually enjoy driving permanently sideways....unsafe at any speed??
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Don't hold back, Trevor. Please let us know what you really think.
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:-) The guy with the "strange comments", seeing MK IV details which are not there can still see them. :-)
- the creature definitely has a "long nose"
- it shows one big hole each side on the front as used for the telescopic bumpers on MK IVs
- there is a 3rd open hole for wiper mounting outbord the hood handle, the spacing is similar to MK IV arrangement. That hole can be clearly seen in the left side view picture not shown above.
- the bonnet handles don't show a round base, they have the shape of the oval ones
- the front edge of the welded in scoop is slightly curved towards the front, as on MK IV scoops
- it has no vent holes between radiator nacelle and headlights.
Even if these small details are completely coincidential, they are there.
Don't take this too serious, for me it looks like a assembly of younger body pieces and old mechanical parts mixed together for a cobra lookalike vehicle.
But beware, checking the pics too often can cause eye cancer.
Uwe
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"Doris Legate"? Is she a looker?
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Those clutch and brake pedals look genuine AC. They also have about 125k miles wear on them. There's a 2 Litre Saloon somewhere with only one pedal!
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I vote with Uwe. The similarities he covers are all heading in that direction. The shape of the body, particularly the way the haunches are profiled, looks remarkably like a long nose MkIV. The pedals ( bottom hinged) suggest a well used Ace or Aceca, etc. has provided the chassis. It is of course possible that it is a MkIV body grafted on to a Cobra chassis? Shame there are no under bonnet shots that would give clues based on the front suspension ( leaf versus coils) and the diameter of the chassis tubes. If there are coils and big tubes then it is possible that the base is an AC 289 or Frau?
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How dare you, Lord Muck!! Oh sorry - misread your post, thought you said 'hooker'......
Ned: I am holding back. Can you imagine pulling that out of your barn and asking your friends what they think of your magnificent $500,000 automobile? One for an RM auction unless I'm much mistaken :)
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I think we need to organise a field trip!
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OK, but only if it has a barn in it.
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Uwe(and Peter...) Ahem. Yes. I had only looked at the site at work(rubbish PC!), and couldn`t even see this photo:
(http://barnfinds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1964-cobra.jpg)
Yes. It DOES have a long nose, and big holes, doesn`t it! It also looks like the battery is behind the passenger seat.
I wonder when it was last on the road, or if it ever actually raced? I`m still thinking Ace chassis
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Here is the registration info on 272 GGT: https://www.cartell.ie/ssl/servlet/beginStarLookup?registration=272ggt
Also, from https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/:
Registration number: 272 GGT
Untaxed
Expired: 01 December 1988
MOT
No details held by DVLA
Vehicle excise duty
Vehicle excise duty rate for vehicle
6 Month rate £126.50
12 Month rate £230.00
Vehicle details
Vehicle make FORD
Date of first registration 03 February 1964
Year of manufacture 1964
Cylinder capacity (cc) 6391cc
CO2 Emissions Not available
Fuel type PETROL
Tax class PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS (PLG)
Export marker No
Vehicle status Not taxed
Vehicle colour BLUE
Vehicle type approval Not available
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Well. That answers that, not been(legally) on the road in 26 years!
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272 GGT was first registered on 3 February 1964 as a Ford Zodiac. Itsa bitsa.
RS
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Bitsa what, one wonders?
I didn't know Zodiacs used CSX chassis number as well. You learn something every day :)
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Sure doe look like a MK IV skin. Note the wipers are two of the three used on the MK IV and there is an apparent "hole" where the third wiper pivot would have resided.
So this begs the question....what MK IV is no longer extant?
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And more to the point, hasn`t been extant (or at least was rebodied) since the early 80`s, as it looks like this car saw some years service before coming off the road in 1988!
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The MK IV can still exist with a new body or even modified as a MK II clone, who knows?
We all know that everything is possible, for example at least one fire damaged MK IV frame is still for sale in Germany but not longer with its original paperwork and number.
So even a seriously damaged car can be reborn somehow these days...
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This is an ex crash damaged Mk1V that was rebuilt in the mid- 90's by a Ford employee who was friends and worked with the son of an ex AC Thames Ditton fabricator. I can't remember the chassis number but I saw it in the flesh at the time.
It received some attention to the bodywork at Brooklands Motor Company/AC Heritage, courtesy of Steve Gray.
It was essentially a budget 'let's get this back on the road' remit from memory.
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I honestly can`t imagine Steve Gray letting it out of the door like that and allowing his name to be associated with it!!! If it was rebuilt mid-90`s, but hasn`t been taxed since December 1988, they apparently failed to "get this back on the road" to boot!
I was wondering how or why a MkIV would be registered as a 1964 Zodiac still, is it possible that the registration was transferred at some point(being a nice Cobra-ey "GT" suffix) but having been off the road for so long has somehow not been updated in the computerised records? That wouldn`t account for it being listed with a 6litre engine though!
One of the 'commenters', "e" posted the following:
"Ok Ive been back to see the car the owner is a bit confused by all the interest.
He let me have a look around it but I’m sworn to secracy about its location.
it is alloy , it does have inboard rear discs but not a jag rear it has two wishbones and sliding jiont halfshafts, two tube chassis . I was shown the log book CSX number , body convertable, the inlet has 427 stamped on it , 750 holley, dual point , tool kit elora spaners thor hammer etc shelley jack, the wind screen is broken
hope that is of assistance"
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I seem to remember it is a built up car by a Ford employee who worked alongside Graham Wright - son of Jock Wright, AC Thames Ditton.
Steve was very helpful and got the aluminum bodywork straightened up within their budgetary constraints but, the rest was down to them.
Perhaps it lost its VIN due to having been a write off.
Kit Cobra's often use the ID of a pre '73 Jaguar so, perhaps this is the basis upon which this car was reincarnated with a Ford ID.
I rather like it in many respects. It is nicely patinated. And an antidote for all the perfect cars out there.
You could use it daily and park it at Sainsburys.
Very liberating.
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I dug out the true facts this morning - apologies to everyone a I was suffering from 'post haste'.
Nick is correct of course that Steve Gray would never put his name to this car.
He did however supply damaged Mk1V bodywork to these gentleman during the accident repair of a Mk1V, along with a kit of used parts.
The chassis it is believed may be TVR in origin.
It is therefore as Robin describes 'a bitsa'
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Hi
I was aware of this project . He told me he wanted to build something, of course, but
I had nothing further to do with it.
Graham
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quote:
Originally posted by SJ351It is nicely patinated. And an antidote for all the perfect cars out there.
You could use it daily and park it at Sainsburys.
Very liberating.
You, Sir, are the Master of understatement! [;)] I too have a leaning towards the 'used'n'abused' look,(thinking Richard Wright`s "Scruffbag"... love that Cobra[:X]) but I`m still hoping it has an AC chassis underneath!
Graham, welcome to the forum... can you shed any more light for us?
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FYI ~ There's been some "action" on the Barn Finds website, stemming in part from the discussion here. IMO, these new "clarifications" do little to "clarify" anything, but I've copied them here for your convenience.
Update 9/8/14 – Many of you thought this was a fake, but the supposed owner just commented and apparently our little discussion got him motivated enough to pull it out and get it running again! He also claims that it does in fact have a CSX COX number…
...and...
me
September 6, 2014 at 1:33 pm
Hi you wanted some follow up. its my car.
it was built as I understand for racing by richard frost a well known race car builder of Black heath. He built a number of formula 2 cars and indianapolis cars, one of which I believe came 2nd one year.
As i understand it was last used about 30 years ago .
the shed it was left in collapsed on top of it but did not damage it.
It was however damaged when an industrial fan that was hanging in the roof of the new shed fell on it breaking the screen, wind wing a couple of instruments and the body and door on the drivers side.
It has a 1964 390 gt with a strengthened block, that the number matches the vin plate T10 gearbox I believe it original had an HEH toploader but no idea why it was changed.
there is a race scrutineer ticket that was under the carpet from lyden hill 1974.
There was some pictures of it racing at north weald but I think they got thrown
It has coil spring suspension inboard discs .
Following the interest I dug it out, rebuilt the brakes with original new parts
got it running (the engine was full of water as the shed leaked in to it) it hasn’t moved yet under it own power but did move accidently and the nose has now got extra shape.
I am also now in the process of putting it back to its original white.
I have had a good laugh at what people have seen that is not there, but thanks to all as it gave me inspiration.
If all goes well it will be at the southend on sea classic breakfast in October.
yes it does have a CSX number
See original thread here: http://barnfinds.com/cobras-in-barns-yep-they-are-still-out-there/#more-23601
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This just gets more amusing. He says it is a coil-spring car, and its 390GT engine matches the data plate. Right. I can't wait for additional details.
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And it has inboard brakes!! Who knew? There was me thinking Carroll Shelby owned the only one. Time to revise all the books :)
Methinks a trip to Southend in October might be in order, just to see this one-off special that AC build in its Thames Ditton skunkworks. Or not.